House Vulker Stratagem Question

[Gaz1858]

How many hits does Endless Fury get for rolling a 6 to hit while Saturation Bombardment is active?

 

3 or 4?

 

Cheers

[Marshal Reinhard]

You won't like what I have to say here, but RAW I think they don't even neccessarily stack because of how its worded. 

 

EDIT: Blah don't try to explain rules you're not sure about before you had your coffee.

 

Let's try this again:

 

The rules state in the case of Endless Fury that "Each unmodified roll of 6 made by this weapon scores 2 hits instead of 1." And then the Stratagem is worded pretty much exactly the same except its choose one model, all it's shooting attacks for one shooting phase now has the same effect, ie that unmodified 6's rolled scores 2 instead of 1 hit.

 

The question was if a model with Endless fury also uses that stratagem, how many hits will a roll of 6 score? 

 

RAW I think they still score only 2 hits. This is because these aren't additative effects. They both simply state that something different from what would normally happen, happens, ie that unmodified rolls of 6 score 2 hits instead of just 1. Having two instances this special rule shouldn't have any effect because they both change the effect of rolling a 6 to the same thing, namely scoring 2 hits instead of 1. Had it said "each unmodified roll of 6 made by this weapon/model now scores an additional hit" THEN it would be an additive effect that could stack, you'd get 3 hits from a roll of a 6. As it is now it seems to me that rolling a six will simply have you reaffirm that you get 2 hits from this roll, rather than 1.

 

Example: You roll your 14 dies from attacking with endless fury, and you roll two sixes and seven regular hits. So when you add up how many to wound rolls you have you see that you get 7 from regular hits and that you get 4 from the two sixes. Then again the next rules just says that you get 4 from your two sixes.

 

There's no explicit mechanism that they can stack with each other. The rules don't state that you're getting extra hits, just that the result of rolling a 6 is that you score two hits. No matter how many instances of this rule you get, it just changes the normal event "rolling a six scores a hit" into a new one: "rolling a 6 scores two hits"

 

I do feel like I am just repeating myself quite a bit but I lack the ability to try and explain it better

[Vel'Cona]

Wow.  I'm glad I don't read this far into rules because that explanation made my head hurt! :P

[Frostbit3]

I read it the same as Reinhard. It looks like they do the same thing and wouldn’t stack.

But as he alluded the only time someone has used that combination against me in a game I didn’t feel passionate enough about it to argue.

[Karhedron]

I am cautiously reaching the same conclusion. It does not say double, it does not say add an additional hit. Just that natural 6s count as 2 hits.

[Stray]

I concur also. It seems the most reasonable reading of the two rules.

[chapter master 454]

A key thing to remember with things like this is wording is key. Card games were extremely fickle with this (Yu-Gi-Oh being a prime candidate for minor wordings meaing a lot like the difference between "If" and "When" for that game) so I generally find 40k very easy to read however I can see where people want to find combos, especially in knights where we don't really have any which does suck but hey, each of our units hits like a freight train and even our "ranged" specialists can still melee very well.

 

So the main things is finding the keyword of the effect. In this instance, the keyword is "Instead". this word tells us that the results given are replacers, not additions so while both effects can exist at the same time on the weapon, they cannot stack as they inherently can't stack.

For simple sake: Imagine that there are 6 stacks of crates and whatever result you get, you can only have ONE stack of crates related to your roll, each with a result equal to the hits you get. So in this case, there are no crates for the first two pallets, then the next three pallets have 1. The last one (representing 6) is odd, for some reason under it there are two pallets related to this roll both with 2 crates on each pallet. While there is 4 crates under the number 6, since you can only have ONE stack you only get 2.

 

I hope I made it nice and simple...or can at least make it a little easier at least in future to be able to spot where these things can get nutty.