Dracos Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I'm a tad over halfway to purchasing 2k worth of a Knight House (Hawkshroud rules). My initial build is to use 3 Traits and 3 Relics ... which leaves the build at 0 CP. Crusader Warden Errant 2 Warglaives 2 Helverins Has anyone else tried running this kind of list semi-competitively? I have been building Astartes list with 2 Battalions, so CP has been pretty plentiful. Knights are a totally different challenge (despise hordes - painting them mostly lol). My plan is to use the Crusader and Helverins in the backfield and flanks mostly with the other two Questoris moving forward with the Warglaives. Would backing down to 1 extra trait and relic be more competitive? Running without any CP seems like a heck of a handicap in 8th and I'm not exactly sure the third Trait and Relic are worth the CP bump. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 extra Traits and 2 extra Relics will set you back 6CPs. Don't forget that you will have +3CPs for being battle-forged so won't start without any CPs. Having said that, I do feel a 3rd Trait and Relic are a bit of a luxury. I would stick to just 1 extra of each meaning you would start with 7CPs. Unless you really need it for a particularly cool combo. I would give one Knight a Trait and Relic and the other 2 one of each so that all you big Knights are characters for the purpose of Herioc Intervention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5130821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 ^^ I have to agree. We might be missing something blindingly obvious (apologies if so), But you have enough Knights to generate 6 CP. Add the 3 CP you get natively and, though while certainly no abundance, you still have 3 to use during play. At that point as Karhedron says, it's a matter of deciding what you find more valuable, the extra relic and trait, or the CPs. There is certainly an element of diminishing returns regarding the cost of taking the extras, but perhaps ultimately the sensible decision is to play it by ear - depending on what you're facing, you may wish you had that extra relic, or conversely the ability to play a stratagem again later in the game. Allow yourself that flexibility and decide as needed based on your opponent? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5130824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amon777 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 From experience the 2 extra warlord traits in a knight list are most defintley worth it. What I've found through trial and error is that the +2 relic strategem is not. You get a free one, and at most take the +1. The 2 extra command points for the 3rd relic is not worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5130841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 With Household benefits, Warlord traits, and Relic rules, you can bake in a set of special rules that don’t really require CP from turn to turn, leaving a few you have left for those special times you just want to squeeze the living ... stuffing ... out of some ... model ... that deserves it. A Knight list doesn’t need excess CP to function, they need CP for pre-game buffing. My opinion. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5130861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Jay Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 As far as heirlooms go, Endless Fury is never a bad choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5130881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 Ok so 3CP minimum Jeez how I forgot that I don't know. I think I agree with the diminishing return on Relics with the Knights and organization I want to run. At least "just" two Relics, Endless Fury for the Warden and Ravager for the Errant. Didn't see any other Relics that screamed must have at me so far. The Gauntlet maybe ... I don't know if that upgrade is worth 2CP. The Crusader will get Ion Bulwark as it has the least chance to get into melee and is the Big Shooter. I need to look more into optimizing Traits and Relics for Hawkshroud before I set hard and fast on a list. I appreciate all the thoughts so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Endless Fury is solid and Ion Bulwark is pretty much an auto-include. I am not sure about Ravager. It only comes in helpful against T8. If you want rerolls to hit, you might be better off taking one of the close range Questoris and the 2 Warglaives and making a Krast lance. Same number of CPs but it means those Knights can reroll failed to-Hits (not just 1s) on the turn they charge, are charged or HI. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Hmm, I'd disagree here. While it's not the Paragon Gauntlet, it's a close second and outclasses all other melee weapons against pretty much everything (the sole exception obviously being feet vs most infantry), at least in terms of average wounds. That includes T7 targets and up, as well as stuff like Crisis Suits and the like. It's a really good weapon. I think we just tend to overlook it because the Paragon Gauntlet is objectively better. That though certainly shouldn't diminish the fact that Ravager is a really decent option where your force doesn't have a Gauntlet to swap for the PG and you want some extra poke in assault... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakybamsen Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Dracos, I have an idea (albeit an expensive one) - get a 4th questoris class knight (Gallant) and run the three you have "cheaply" with the two warglaives joining the Gallant as Krast knights in their own Lance (as Karhedronuk suggested). 4 questoris and 2 armigers means 12 CP. Your third relic is no longer so far out of reach. That of course means you'd either have to not have assembled your knights yet, or have them magnetised at least. My 2k-with-a-punch-list looks something like this: Warden 2 Gallants Castigator (replace with crusader or what you deem fitting) 2 armigers (I've got helverines at the moment, might pick up a box of warglaives later on) Add Ironstorm rocket pods to help killing chaff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Jay Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 I just won a local tournament (medium competitive meta) with the following 2k list. Atrapos Warden - Endless Fury Crusader 3 x Warglaives Round 1 Played against Black Templars Tabled him turn 5 Round 2 Played 1k Sons w/Magus He conceded turn 3 before I could table him Round 3 Played Necrons I won turn 4, would have tabled him if I had a few more turns (Necrons are soooo durable) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Personally always doing a 2 relic/2 trait approach to all my games. The amount of bang you get from just spending 2CP on 2 extra pieces of gravy works wonders. Personally, currently running some tests with my castellan by NOT taking cawl's wrath and using other relics to see how Auto-Include Cawl's Wrath is by what feels like everyone's standard with castellans (so far: not exactly feeling like I miss it much. I do feel the volcano lance does most of the anti-tank duty and the plasma works well on lighter targets well enough). As everyone has stated here: Ion Bulwark is far and away the best trait all round for what you need. Personally I run it on my dominus because it like getting free 3CP everytime it gets fired at when it matters. Landstrider is surprisingly powerful and should not be knocked, being able to shift the average charge range to 9" is a big help. Seneschal is purely for gallant death balls. Reputation is laughable that anyone who wrote the codex thought would be useful. The +1CP trait is just an outright joke and whoever thought that was good to add should be put to death for the good of all game design health and blessed by the sacristans is one of my top 3 for being good in general but only on AGCs. Really, in terms of design there are only really 1 outright always include while there is another 2 you can pick from with another 1 being for a certain list build and the last 2 being outright jokes. As far as relics go, things get a little better though apologies to our fellow nobles of house Vulker who drew a straw so short, it was mistaken for a hula-hoop! (type of crisp here in the UK. That is Chips to you americans I believe). Really, there are some that are clearly better than others, endless fury is clearly the stand out as the outright never bad choice. From there, choice is yours really for the second relic if you want to (and that point you could save 1 CP if you wanted but it can be a massive boon to have another one). Personally my favourite is from the house I run, the Fury of Mars in House Taranis. When a Daddy Lascannon and a Mummy Multi-melta love each other very much, THIS beast is born. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I quite like the Cunning Commander trait. Sure, it’s only a single re-roll per turn, but it’s a re-roll you aren’t spending CP on since you get a +1 CP refund just for taking the trait. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I quite like the Cunning Commander trait. Sure, it’s only a single re-roll per turn, but it’s a re-roll you aren’t spending CP on since you get a +1 CP refund just for taking the trait. SJ your mixed up my dear friend. Read it again. It is ONCE per BATTLE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I personally go with +1 Relic and +1 WLT. CP are very usefull, so spending 6 of them before the game starts does hurt. You want to rotate your Ion Shield nearly every turn, you might want to make a Knight go boom in the opponents deployment zone, Taranis wants to ressurect a Knight, Mechanicum wants to use the top row of the damage table and so on. I played Knights only once, but I think the Setup was solid: Gallant - Ion Bullwark and Paragon Gauntlet Warden - Endless Fury Errant - Cunning Commander Next time I would leave the Gauntlet at home and give my Errant the Fury of Mars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 Nice run Crazy Jay. Sons are dangerous to Knights from what I can see and Crons are just a pain. I know lots of guns are the meta for 8th but I'm just not into the Dominus, and the Gallants ... I want my Knights to shoot and fight . . . and I smell a nerf for the Gallants. Well not a nerf but definitely a points bump. I'm building the Warden with the Gauntlet ... it runs best (point wise) with my <RG> Marine army that way. I'm not a big fan (or detractor) of the Gauntlet point for performance but it definitely has a place in the army. Though I plan on using the Warden (with Endless Fury) with my Marines, I could put it on the Crusader and the Paragon on the Warden. I feel the Warden is going to get a lot of heat. It seems to be the most popular Knight for its points. If (which is likely now) I do only run 2 Relics I feel the Errant can surprise. Too bad there isn't a Thermal Cannon Relic :( I appreciate these ideas and while I'm pretty set on Hawkshroud I'm going to look claoser at other Houses that might work with my jab and move set up the upper cut play style ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermanista Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 There is a relic thermal cannon, but it's taranis. It's grim too Fury of Mars 48" Heavy D6 Str9 -4 D6 damage Replaces the bearer's Thermal Cannon. Roll two dice when inflicting damage with this weapon and discard the lowest result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegir_Einarsson Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 And always roll two dice No matter how far you are not just in half range Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 27, 2018 Author Share Posted July 27, 2018 I do like the Errant ... a lot ... but this is where I am influenced (to my detriment) by my fluff bias. I can't abide the Mechanicus or it's likely connection to the Necrons via the C'tan Dragon. The competitive player in me is going to have to check it out though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 ... I can't abide the Mechanicus or it's likely connection to the Necrons via the C'tan Dragon... You mean the Omnissiah, don't you? The Relic Thermal Canon is locked for House Taranis unfortunately. On the other hand I think Taranis is very competative if it is that you are looking for! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5131699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I quite like the Cunning Commander trait. Sure, it’s only a single re-roll per turn, but it’s a re-roll you aren’t spending CP on since you get a +1 CP refund just for taking the trait. SJ your mixed up my dear friend. Read it again. It is ONCE per BATTLE.One of us can read, and it’s me. It’s ONCE PER BATTLE TURN. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5132168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Oh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5132172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 ... I can't abide the Mechanicus or it's likely connection to the Necrons via the C'tan Dragon... You mean the Omnissiah, don't you? The Relic Thermal Canon is locked for House Taranis unfortunately. On the other hand I think Taranis is very competative if it is that you are looking for! I am :) and I'm doing a DIY House color scheme anyway. Never trusted Cogheads ... Apparently the Primaris dont either ... or arent trusted by Gadgetman. No Primaris Techmarines? Jeffersonian001 : Chill please. It is what it is. If it said and instead of or it'd be better but still be an inferior trait. Once for the whole battle? Yeah some great game developer idea there :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5132196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 The thing with Cunning Commander is that it is a free reroll if you spend only 1 CP for exalted court. Especially on an Errant it might help getting rid of that Las Predator turn 1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5132257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Everything I type is supposed to read as humor, but I was in fact wrong, it is only once per battle. /wink SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349137-exalted-court-and-heirlooms-worth-the-cp/#findComment-5132258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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