How to make Terminators not a total loss?

[HighMarshalAmp]

Well, make them S5 T5, but that's not for us to decide outside of our own games. [Edit: and not the point of this thread. This is about how to use them efficiently with their current datasheet.]
 
 
I've come to 40k at an interesting time to take it up - just before 8th landed.
Here's some reminiscion about that:

That means that I've lived through the last days of 7th when there was a mandatory troops tax and when I had my first Squad finished, there was 8th and troop choices suddenly seemed far less attractive 'cause I, who i had little to no time to paint stuff, could finish a Sternguard Squad in the same time it would take me to finish another Tac Squad and put them on the table straight away!

Then GW made a smart move and marked the Battalion up to 5CP and Troops were viable again... in my eyes... somehow.

So I painted troops. A lot of them.

But never did I get a box of Terminators. there was always something that seemed more important to get, to paint, to play...

All the while though, that picture of sturdy melee machines charging across the field was stuck in the back of my head.

And now, with painting Mk VII armor boring me half to death and no desire to either mix Primaris into my existing forces or start a new, all-Primaris force, seems like a good time to make that happen.

tl;dr: I want to run some Terminators now.

 

I tried to find a sport for them and based my assumptions on this:

Now if you were to kit out a Tactical Marine with a Power Fist and a Storm Bolter, that'd still be 13pts less than one Terminator.

These 13pts buy you 1W, 1A and +1 to your saves. And a 5++ and Teleport Strike.

It costs you 1" of movement though.

 

So it seems like you get a tougher Marine with a little more Oomph in a fist fight who you can keep safe from enemy fire in turn 1 and plonk down turn 2 right about where he might have moved with a 6".

 

A MSU squad of them provides both double the number of shots and double the number of wounds a Tac Squad nets you.

 

Weapons with more than D1 will hurt you a lot and blow those additional 13pts per Terminator to hell though.

 

All that lead me to aim for a melee-oriented Squad to give those d3D guns as little change to hurt them as possible.

So their making their charges is imperative.

I've hence decided to add them to my Black Templars - having a few shoulder pads left from the upgrade frame is a bonus piece of eye candy.

Re-rolling charges should make them get into brawls more reliably.

I've liked the performance of my Chainsword Crusaders so far, and they were seldom left standing in the rain not making their charges.

 

Also, this might be the point where you think 'That idiot wants to run Terminators in 8th AND he uses Chainsword Marines?'

I resent the idiot part, but the rest is true. I was even thinking about taking up Grey Knights - but damn, these kits are expensive!

So rest easy, all which you're feeling the urge to school me on right now I already know, that's why I'm looking for help by means of this thread.

Veil of Time might help here.

 

With 8 Power Fist attacks and 3 with a Power Sword, little should be left standing by the time the Fight Phase is over.

That might even serve as a nice counterincentive if somebody's thinking about charging them.

 

In order to boost their shooting a bit, the Assault Cannon seems like a nice way to up their dice count - which seems to be a good thing in this time of horde armies.

 

Now all this doesn't male them the game stopper they should be, but it's a foundation I want to try to build on.

 

Now what else do you think might work to give them more teeth?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

This came up in the bigass thread about fixing marines.  My suggestion was to just give them the bullgryn statline.

 

S5 T5 3W, 2+/5++ 6" 3A

 

Speaking from experience using bullgyns and terminators... this change would work.

[Lemondish]

This came up in the bigass thread about fixing marines. My suggestion was to just give them the bullgryn statline.

 

S5 T5 3W, 2+/5++ 6" 3A

 

Speaking from experience using bullgyns and terminators... this change would work.

I kind of want them to be able to fire the assault cannon without penalty as well.

 

But of course this is getting off the whole point of the thread.

 

I think Black Templars are the perfect option here if you're trying to get them into melee, where they're actually pretty resilient I've found.

 

My only other use for termies is mixed into my Deathwatch units where they tank attrition fire.

[FlamingDeth]

As a DA player I go the opposite direction, deepstrike in a squad, use Deathwing Assault to liquify an important Target or two with shooting, and then then back line is softer with less dangerous shooting and my guys are closer to he able to charge in. Having a captain drop in helps, sucks that there's no terminator lieutenants.

[Azekai]

Death Guard player here: T5 is not that great. Thanks to the simplified wound chart of 8th, plasma will still kill on 3+ and flashlights (and their analogues) will still wound on 5+. It is only against S4/S5 and S8 weapons that T5 matters, and those are rarely rare. Mortal wounds and plasma and volume of fire is often what kills terminators, and against these T5 helps very little.

[Kallas]

Deathwing/Deathwatch run good Terminators.

 

Deathwing have their stratagem to get more bang for their buck when they arrive and they have some solid supporting units.

 

Deathwatch Terminators get SIA on their Storm Bolters, so they hit super hard (for Bolters), and don't have to take the super expensive Power Fists (Swords/Axes are great on Terminators). They also have great stratagems which Terminators take good advantage of; plus they can be a part of a Troops Kill-Team (you could take 5 Veterans, 5 Terminators and Combat Squads the Terminators) which gives them ObSec. Deathwatch are probably the best Terminators right now, though still a bit expensive (considering they don't hit any harder than regular DW Veterans kitted the same way, and don't get the same access to Storm Shields!)

[Lemondish]

Death Guard player here: T5 is not that great. Thanks to the simplified wound chart of 8th, plasma will still kill on 3+ and flashlights (and their analogues) will still wound on 5+. It is only against S4/S5 and S8 weapons that T5 matters, and those are rarely rare. Mortal wounds and plasma and volume of fire is often what kills terminators, and against these T5 helps very little.

Which I think is why the suggestion included the 3w to offset that, which makes them take twice as much plasma fire to kill, while the T5 improves their odds against ALL attrition fire (bolters and pulse rifles as well as lasguns), and the S5 makes them actually dangerous. Right now they're an awful lot of points into an easy to kill, non-obsec unit that puts out weak damage unless it can get into melee, and with their mobility issues, that won't be happening reliably.

 

Also, regarding DW Termies, they're still more expensive.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Death Guard player here: T5 is not that great. Thanks to the simplified wound chart of 8th, plasma will still kill on 3+ and flashlights (and their analogues) will still wound on 5+. It is only against S4/S5 and S8 weapons that T5 matters, and those are rarely rare. Mortal wounds and plasma and volume of fire is often what kills terminators, and against these T5 helps very little.

 

 

Edit: What Lemondish said.  He put it better than I did.

[Captain Idaho]

T5 is amazing. There's a lot of S4 weapons that it helps against. Orks, Genestealers, Bolters etc.

 

However, it's the 3rd wound that really helps.

 

Going back to the main point of the thread... shooting will hurt most so getting the most out if Terminators is reliant on delivery.

[Jolemai]

If Marines were to be put to 2W (which has been bandied about on the "fixing" threads), then Terminators of all flavors should have 3W. Trouble is, then you start messing around with the balance elsewhere and where do you go with Paladins? Give them 4W? Only then you mess up something elsewhere.

 

Any fix really isn't as black and white as that.

 

That said, I would like to see Relentless make a return for things like Terminators as wasn't that the point?

[Captain Idaho]

If Paladins would need that wound to be better then yes they should. Case by case basis.

 

***

 

Veil of Time Terminators might assist them in being usedul.

[Marshal Arthur]

What if there was a stratagem allowing them to teleport within 9” of an enemy? I’d also love more durability but this might be an easier fix that increases their reliability. That and improving their invuln to 4++ and dropping their price would be great too.

[Tokugawa]

This thread came into daydreaming from wishlisting faster than ever.

[Lemondish]

This thread came into daydreaming from wishlisting faster than ever.

It was inevitable.

 

Everyone wants Terminators to work - but more than that, everyone wants them to work at a high level competitive tier. That won't happen without major changes to them.

 

But for now the best options are the ones that remove their biggest issues - Black Templars for jumping then into assault, and maybe something like Iron Hands for a 16% chance not to lose a wound.

 

Tactically I think that means they're best used to clamp down on a flank or hold an objective.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

This thread came into daydreaming from wishlisting faster than ever.

It was inevitable.

 

Everyone wants Terminators to work - but more than that, everyone wants them to work at a high level competitive tier. That won't happen without major changes to them.

 

But for now the best options are the ones that remove their biggest issues - Black Templars for jumping then into assault, and maybe something like Iron Hands for a 16% chance not to lose a wound.

 

Tactically I think that means they're best used to clamp down on a flank or hold an objective.

 

The sad part is that they are actually laughably bad at holding objectives.  No obsec... not enough model mass/wound total.  20 Cultists are much better for such a task at less than half the cost.  Gaunts are also better... and guardsmen/conscripts/intercessors/kabalites/guardians/poxwalkers/plaguebearers/leman russ tanks(spearhead)/banebaldes(you cant get within 3").  Maybe terminators hold objectives better than tactical marines??  Probably not just because of cost.  But maybe!

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

This thread came into daydreaming from wishlisting faster than ever.

It was inevitable.

 

Everyone wants Terminators to work - but more than that, everyone wants them to work at a high level competitive tier. That won't happen without major changes to them.

 

But for now the best options are the ones that remove their biggest issues - Black Templars for jumping then into assault, and maybe something like Iron Hands for a 16% chance not to lose a wound.

 

Tactically I think that means they're best used to clamp down on a flank or hold an objective.

The sad part is that they are actually laughably bad at holding objectives. No obsec... not enough model mass/wound total. 20 Cultists are much better for such a task at less than half the cost. Gaunts are also better... and guardsmen/conscripts/intercessors/kabalites/guardians/poxwalkers/plaguebearers/leman russ tanks(spearhead)/banebaldes(you cant get within 3"). Maybe terminators hold objectives better than tactical marines?? Probably not just because of cost. But maybe!

You're right, better to divert them to using that innate deep strike to contest them instead.

 

After all, the thread isn't really about what does the Terminator's job better, but rather how can one use Terminators the most efficiently.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

This thread came into daydreaming from wishlisting faster than ever.

It was inevitable.

 

Everyone wants Terminators to work - but more than that, everyone wants them to work at a high level competitive tier. That won't happen without major changes to them.

 

But for now the best options are the ones that remove their biggest issues - Black Templars for jumping then into assault, and maybe something like Iron Hands for a 16% chance not to lose a wound.

 

Tactically I think that means they're best used to clamp down on a flank or hold an objective.

The sad part is that they are actually laughably bad at holding objectives. No obsec... not enough model mass/wound total. 20 Cultists are much better for such a task at less than half the cost. Gaunts are also better... and guardsmen/conscripts/intercessors/kabalites/guardians/poxwalkers/plaguebearers/leman russ tanks(spearhead)/banebaldes(you cant get within 3"). Maybe terminators hold objectives better than tactical marines?? Probably not just because of cost. But maybe!

You're right, better to divert them to using that innate deep strike to contest them instead.

 

After all, the thread isn't really about what does the Terminator's job better, but rather how can one use Terminators the most efficiently.

 

Certainly the LEAST efficient use of terminators is objective holding.   

[Basteala]

Death Guard player here: T5 is not that great. Thanks to the simplified wound chart of 8th, plasma will still kill on 3+ and flashlights (and their analogues) will still wound on 5+. It is only against S4/S5 and S8 weapons that T5 matters, and those are rarely rare. Mortal wounds and plasma and volume of fire is often what kills terminators, and against these T5 helps very little.

 

Overcharged plasma will wound on 3s instead of 2s though. That's not insignificant given how Terminators have 2 wounds.

[Ishagu]

 

They won't update Terminators as it affects too many books and armies. If you make them t5 then Nurgle must be T6? It would scale poorly with specific forces. If you make them str5 then Blood Angels are suddenly wounding Imperial Knights on a 2+ which is another example.

 

There's only one likely solution:

 

Make them cheap enough so that they actually have a use on the tabletop. They might not be the walking landraiders we want them to be, but they'll be playable. It's the best we can hope for.

[Lemondish]

They won't update Terminators as it affects too many books and armies. If you make them t5 then Nurgle must be T6? It would scale poorly with specific forces.

 

Make them cheap enough so that they actually have a use on the tabletop. They might not be the walking landraiders we want them to be, but they'll be playable. It's the best we can hope for.

They won't update Terminators as it affects too many books and armies. If you make them t5 then Nurgle must be T6? It would scale poorly with specific forces. If you make them str5 then Blood Angels are suddenly wounding Imperial Knights on a 2+ which is another example.

 

There's only one likely solution:

 

Make them cheap enough so that they actually have a use on the tabletop. They might not be the walking landraiders we want them to be, but they'll be playable. It's the best we can hope for.

This is specious reasoning. Nothing says they have to change Death Guard Terminators.

[Ishagu]

Of course they must. Nurgle's entire theme is +1 toughness over the base units and disgusting resiliency.

 

Also, does it sound right that BA Terminators are wounding an Imperial Knight on a 2+ when even Guilliman's mighty fist, or the most powerful Tyranid monsters can't manage such a feat?

 

This is what I'm talking about. The big problem with Marines is their standardised statline and duplication across multiple books. If units were more distinctive then adjustments would more isolated and thus easier.

 

It's probably one of the main reasons why Primaris are designed with more distinction and are separated from regular Astartes in terms of rules.

[Captain Idaho]

It's almost like the changes in my Codex Space Marines Amendments thread would address the problems between books... :p

 

3 wounds, hitting on 2+ and the spate of Strategums I suggest are modest enough not to break the game but good enough to give Terminators serious staying power.

 

***

 

Rereading the Stratagems we all worked on (remember I gleaned many suggestions before the thread too) and the changes wrought:

 

For 3 Command Points you could have 5 Cataphractii Terminators teleporting in 9-D6 away (average well within credible charge distance), firing with +1 to Bolt weapons shots for 6 per model in Rapid Fire range and then firing again that turn for another 6 shots per model.

 

That's 60 Bolter shots hitting on a 2+ and then a likely successful charge. With 3 wounds a piece. Hitting on 2+ in close combat (modifiers notwithstanding).

 

That's decent.

[Lemondish]

Of course they must. Nurgle's entire theme is +1 toughness over the base units and disgusting resiliency.

 

Also, does it sound right that BA Terminators are wounding an Imperial Knight on a 2+ when even Guilliman's mighty fist, or the most powerful Tyranid monsters can't manage such a feat?

 

This is what I'm talking about. The big problem with Marines is their standardised statline and duplication across multiple books. If units were more distinctive then adjustments would more isolated and thus easier.

 

It's probably one of the main reasons why Primaris are designed with more distinction and are separated from regular Astartes in terms of rules.

I fundamentally disagree with your reasoning here. The Disgusting Resilience is a 5+ fnp and has nothing to do with their toughness. Furthermore, I reject the argument that all marine forces need be balanced based on each other. They don't. Data sheets make that truer than ever.

 

I don't think we'll agree here, but if GW is actually following your perspective then yes, we will never see changes because they've put themselves in an idiotic box where they think they can't balance individually.

[Tokugawa]

Nurgle marines has toughness 1 point higher than others since...2nd edition? It should never be a question.

[Panzer]

 

Of course they must. Nurgle's entire theme is +1 toughness over the base units and disgusting resiliency.

 

Also, does it sound right that BA Terminators are wounding an Imperial Knight on a 2+ when even Guilliman's mighty fist, or the most powerful Tyranid monsters can't manage such a feat?

 

This is what I'm talking about. The big problem with Marines is their standardised statline and duplication across multiple books. If units were more distinctive then adjustments would more isolated and thus easier.

 

It's probably one of the main reasons why Primaris are designed with more distinction and are separated from regular Astartes in terms of rules.

I fundamentally disagree with your reasoning here. The Disgusting Resilience is a 5+ fnp and has nothing to do with their toughness. Furthermore, I reject the argument that all marine forces need be balanced based on each other. They don't. Data sheets make that truer than ever.

 

I don't think we'll agree here, but if GW is actually following your perspective then yes, we will never see changes because they've put themselves in an idiotic box where they think they can't balance individually.

 

 

That's why he said +1T AND Disgustingly Resilient. With no word he said or implied it's the same thing. 

 

Also what he says is right. Every Marine and every Terminator is basically the same unit just with adjusted loadouts and added special rules depending on the Datasheet. That means logic-wise they all have to have the same stats to keep their flavour.