How to make Terminators not a total loss?

[Kinstryfe]

Some potential options...

 

Lower their cost substantially, to make them viable as they are.

Make them ignore penalties to hit with their weapons, meaning their fists would still hit on 3s, and their heavy weapon would always as well. Make them the personal tank armour they should be.

Changing the whole "Codex Astartes" limitations on squads. Say that Guilliman changed his mind if you have to. Let them mix weapons and take multiples of their heavies. It's odd that Devastators can take 4x whatever in a 5 man squad and termies get 1. They're supposed to be elite, specialist units, so let them kit out like one.

Ignore certain AP altogether, like ignoring AP-1, or getting a FNP save against attacks of strength X or less. If Death Riders can do that, certainly walking tanks can too.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Erm... guys?

 

Could we please stay on topic?

There's kinda another thread for what y'all are discussing...

[Captain Idaho]

Well said.

 

I was toying with the idea of a large number of Terminators in a single squad. The army would require something to provide target saturation of course.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Of course they must. Nurgle's entire theme is +1 toughness over the base units and disgusting resiliency.

 

Also, does it sound right that BA Terminators are wounding an Imperial Knight on a 2+ when even Guilliman's mighty fist, or the most powerful Tyranid monsters can't manage such a feat?

 

This is what I'm talking about. The big problem with Marines is their standardised statline and duplication across multiple books. If units were more distinctive then adjustments would more isolated and thus easier.

 

It's probably one of the main reasons why Primaris are designed with more distinction and are separated from regular Astartes in terms of rules.

I fundamentally disagree with your reasoning here. The Disgusting Resilience is a 5+ fnp and has nothing to do with their toughness. Furthermore, I reject the argument that all marine forces need be balanced based on each other. They don't. Data sheets make that truer than ever.

 

I don't think we'll agree here, but if GW is actually following your perspective then yes, we will never see changes because they've put themselves in an idiotic box where they think they can't balance individually.

That's why he said +1T AND Disgustingly Resilient. With no word he said or implied it's the same thing.

 

Also what he says is right. Every Marine and every Terminator is basically the same unit just with adjusted loadouts and added special rules depending on the Datasheet. That means logic-wise they all have to have the same stats to keep their flavour.

I still disagree in that I don't think they HAVE to be.

 

If Terminators can't be changed because it'll be "too hard" to update every Terminator unit even though they're already differentiated via data sheet, unit name, faction, internal synergies, etc. then GW have failed to realize the power they have with data sheets.

 

You ultimately don't need to tie yourself down to a single basic statline across factions unless you think the balance is in a good spot currently. It isn't.

 

But I'll leave it at that.

[Guest MistaGav]

Like all SM stuff at the moment they suffer from a few common problems that is weight of strong fire and resilience to enemy fire.

 

- WS/BS should be 2+ considering these guys are supposed to be veterans already so that would make sense OR ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons and PF in CC.

- Weapons with an ap value up to -2 are treated as 0.

- Cheaper points cost in weapons and base value

- More flexibility in weapon loadouts. Deathwatch terminators can take Power Swords, Axes, Lances, Mauls and 3 heavy weapons in a squad of 5. Other terminator squads in other factions should be able to do the same.

- A rule where if the Warlord in your army has a Terminator armour datasheet then other Terminator keyword gain the Obsec ability. Repeat for Bikes, Jump packs etc.

[Dosjetka]

How many times does someone need to say "this is not a wishlist thread" before people cotton on?

[Servant of Dante]

I was hoping to hear more about what people thought Terminators could be used for, but instead it’s a page of wishlisting that the OP specifically asked us to refrain from :P

 

I feel like you almost have to use Terminators as a distraction. Maybe if you can put them in a place that makes your opponent use a couple of their heavy hitters for a turn to kill them you can get something that actually matters further across the field. Of course, this is only of any value if you have a high value unit that still is out of range turn 2.

 

I’m not much of a strategist, but couldn’t you drop a squad of Terminators off on one side of the board, and move a large threat up the other? If they ignore the Terminators, well you should be planning for them to be shooting at your big threats anyway and the Terminators are free to pressure them and try and get some value. If they turn some real guns on the termis, that’s one less thing shooting at your important units.

 

In practice, I imagine the effect might be underwhelming, but I can’t think of much else.

[Panzer]

To be perfectly honest, Terminators are just so overcosted that there's simply no real use for them outside of themed lists or rule of cool.

Maaaaybe TH/SS Terminators for some big game hunting but then again I'd rather take some Vanguard Veterans with Jump Pack and TH/SS instead. Could even just give like 2-3 of them hammers and keep the others cheap with just Chainsword+SS since those are there to eat wounds anyway and makes the unit about 100p cheaper than TH/SS Terminators while also being more mobile.

So back to Terminators just being too expensive for anything they could possibly do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Basteala]

The problem is that 2+ armor really isn't worth a whole lot, and a 9 inch charge for slow terminators is awful. And a Stormraven to get them close is also expensive. TH + SS really seems to be the way to go to get anything done, since at least that's 11 attacks hitting on 4s with 3 damage each. Maybe an apothecary to heal small arms fire and bring back your expensive minis when they die (do vanilla marines have access to a deep striking Apothecary?). Might of Heroes could help here. 

 

This is only really worth anything, however, if you have something drawing a lot of attention. Non Forgeworld SM is short on units that need to be answered right away. You could soup in an Imperial Knight maybe--but then the argument comes that you could use a Gallant instead of the Terminators + support for a reasonably similar cost (ugh). A Leviathan Dreadnought is a threat magnet, but also forgeworld.

 

A stormraven, Contemptor Dreadnought, and Termis with TH/SS and support might do work and prevent the Termis from getting nuked early, but its' reliant on the transport not getting nuked early, It's also 800+ points and it's probably not going to make those points back consistently. 

 

In the end, I think Might of Heroes helps, I think TH/SS helps. It might make it worth splashing a squad in for fun games, but I wouldn't expect much beyond that.

[Ishagu]

Might of heroes only affects a single model.

[Basteala]

Might of heroes only affects a single model.

 

Oh wow. Alright, my bad. We don't have that in DA.

 

...Welp.

[Ipsen]

Winning list at BAO apparently ran 10 blightlord termies. So maybe the answer is to play deathguard.

[Ishagu]

BlightLord Termies are pretty good, and miles better than the variants other forces have access to.

[Dracos]

5+ fnp does indeed make them more durable but I wouldn’t say miles ahead of other variants. Nor does it mean they are only good with Deathguard. What Don Hooson did was find a unit that had a new niche that no one else had tried to exploit since the Big FAQ dropped.

 

Bubble wraps were becoming less secure due to the decline of the Turn One Alpha Strike nerf. He was able to take advantage of this and had an excellent tournament. This is similar to the Knights sudden surge in popularity. Most armies being built to handle the Hordes list are having issues handling Knights.

 

I predict a shift in meta play style and list building to handle each of these issues by top players in future events.

 

Hooson did what we all should do. Don’t let anyone tell you unit “X” is unplayable. Look at the meta, local and larger, see what is going on in games not just theoryhanmer, and find a way to use the unit your interested in. No ... not every unit is going to find its Brightlord like niche but listening to the sheep will never make one a wolf.

[Guest Triszin]

what if terminators behaved like a multiplier to them selves?

 

squad of 5, their shields intermingle creating a better invulnerable save, that degrades as their numbers dwindle?

[Dracos]

I’m not sure how that mechanic would work but I like the idea of Marines getting a bonus because they work as a team.

[Guest Triszin]

I’m not sure how that mechanic would work but I like the idea of Marines getting a bonus because they work as a team.

Terminator < 5+ terminators makes their sheild into a mini VOid shield that gives them saves against mortal wounds?

Terminator = 3-4 equals a better invulnerable save

terminator = 1-2 normal save?

[Ishagu]

DG Terminators categorically are better than other variants. Toughness 5, 5+DG, longer range on rapid fire bolters AND access to cloud of flies.

 

No other variants come close.

[Guest Triszin]

DG Terminators categorically are better than other variants. Toughness 5, 5+DG, longer range on rapid fire bolters AND access to cloud of flies.

 

No other variants come close.

they are supposed to be. Nurgle terminators should be extremely tough to deal with, compared to standard terminators

 

the issue is trying to find a good balance for terminators, which might actually mean buffing nurgle terminators more in the end

[Ipsen]

They don't do much damage though and are a bit more expensive than other termies. The basic axe is only 1D and their only option for more melee damage removes their combibolters. They are just really hard to kill and not much else.

[Ishagu]

They can deal with light infantry, tie up more powerful units and arrive at key positions.

 

I've always rated the DG Termies, personally. They still require skill to utilise however.

[Dracos]

Without even seeing them I’ll take Wolf Guard terminators over Death Guard.

 

 

Sadly none of which helps a normal space marine list.

[Prot]

I've used DG Blightlords a lot... and yea, they're good. You're paying for it though, and there's always going to be a horrific match up for them. It's just alleviated a bit by the FnP which can mitigate that cost disadvantage.

 

I've only had success with Cataphractii (ironically) with Ultra's. It's basically the 4++ and they always come down with a combination of Stormbolters, fists, and dual claws and one grenade launcher. Their movement is really hard to compensate for and that makes another reason it's hard to -not- turn this into a wish list conversation.

 

I haven't really used Hammer/Shield Termies in 8th. The Catapractii give a little bit of punch and a little bit of survivability. I don't like standard Termies at all anymore, and Allarus are my favorite. Treading on whishlisting, but I would take those dudes as Ultra's if I could.

[Panzer]

Also keep in mind that list had some Knights which easily wrecked stuff that could have been a problem for the Termis. That's a not to underestimate factor as well imo.