Lore Questions for Successor Primaris Chapters

[Gearcrow]

So I couldn't find any other topics on this, and looking around the internet and my own library hasn't provided much in the form of answers. I'm guessing there isn't really any lore on this atm, but I figured I'd still ask and see if anyone knew something I didn't, or just had some head-cannon ideas about the whole situation.

 

So as far as we know right now all successor chapters of the Dark Angels have analogous Deathwing and Ravenwing companies, and I'm pretty sure, unless I remember incorrectly from the codex etc that this includes all Primaris successor chapters as well. That would mean that the Blades of Vengeance, as the most obvious example, would have a 1st Company Deathwing analogue, and a 2nd Company Ravenwing analogue. There's been some rumors about Primaris biker models coming down the line, but my main question is what kind of units would make up the 1st company? Primaris marines don't wear any mark of terminator armor (idk if it is because they're too big or just don't field termies at the moment). Would it be an all Gravis company then? Or all Aggressor company? 

 

Is there any actual lore on this yet? And if not how do you guys think it works?

[General Strike]

Gravis, maybe? Aggressors make up Deathwing, and the eventual Primaris bikes will be Ravenwing, or Inceptors?

[Guest]

Mmmm I am not so sure as the Blades of Vengeance are a full Primaris iirc. Given the lack of trust the DA have for Primaris I would doubt the full Primaris Chapters would need factions like Deathwing and Ravenwing in the same way....

 

BUT...... If the Blades are marines from Caliban in stasis it is possible they MIGHT have all six factions. 

 

As for Primaris 1st & 2nd Companies I think well shall see some form of Terminator armour for them at some point. (I do love Gravis armour) and Grav bikes with the same tech as the Repulsor? 

[Bryan Blaire]

I'll admit to not having read all the latest BL stuff on the Primaris, but I thought that the Primaris were at best neophytes and aspirants when taken for the Primaris project by Cawl and his folks. Given the implantation order we have, where the Primaris organs are implanted in order alongside the standard Marine organs, it doesn't seem like it's possible for any of them to be "Marines from Caliban," but rather they'd have been aspirants or those marked out to become Marines, but not yet underway, or they were very early scouts (I believe that first Primaris organ is implanted in mid to late year one of the implantation order, but that's without looking at the text in the Index Astartes on it). I doubt they have had much in the way of instruction on all six original Wings' combat doctrines, if that was something Cawl was even privy to himself, because they would have just been getting introduced to the First Legion when they were taken for the Primaris project.

 

Since none of the Primaris have yet been inducted into the Raven or Deathwings that we've explicitly been told of, it's probably a safe bet that none of the Primaris Unforgiven Successors yet have either company analog at this time, and even if they have those analogs, they aren't privy to the secrets (or stories/lies that lead to those secrets) yet.

 

Now, what it does sound like is developing is a Primaris "investigation" Circle, so we could see that spread to the Primaris Unforgiven Chapters, but right now, GW hasn't given us any clues on when the first Primaris Deathwing inductions might be coming, other than "it'll have to happen at some point."

 

Honestly, all of this is what has made it near-impossible for me to continue with any Primaris Unforgiven - I really need GW to figure out what they are doing with them before I see if I want to make any Primaris into Sons of the Lion.

[Gearcrow]

So we do actually know that at least one Primaris Dark Angel was from Caliban (the one who had fought with the Unnumbered Sons in the Dark Imperium novel). The ones from War of Secrets all seem to be from Terra or Mars though (and are weirdly adherents of the Cult of Mars instead of generally non-religious like the other Dark Angels). That being said Bryan your comments pertain more to whether any Dark Angels Primaris marines have been brought into the Ravenwing or Deathwing, which we know has not happened yet.

 

Now I imagine even if the all Primaris successor chapters are unaware of the larger hunt for the fallen and all that hooplah, that they would still have the same military structure as their parent chapter to a) not raise suspicion, and b ) comply with the fact that Guilliman told Azrael that the Dark Angels had earned the right to keep their unique formations and that those formations were pretty useful in just the regular eternal war as well.

 

With regards to them having something akin to the six original wings? That seems pretty far-fetched to me, and would require some weird lore bending I think to make work. The only way those would return I think is if the Lion woke up and was all like, screw this newfangled codex bull:cuss, time to go back to the good old ways.

 

But yeah, the fact that GW have been so slow with releasing lore regarding this point has made it very difficult to play a fluffy Dark Angels Primaris Successor list. 

[Bryan Blaire]

So we do actually know that at least one Primaris Dark Angel was from Caliban (the one who had fought with the Unnumbered Sons in the Dark Imperium novel).

When you say that he was a "Dark Angel from Caliban," do you mean that the novel says he was a full-fledged already grown and completed Marine with Black Carapace and all other organs fully installed, in sync and functioning 100%, and already having used power armor, fighting with the Dark Angels Legion in the Great Crusade before he was selected and became a Primaris?

 

My understanding was that this couldn't happen and any Primaris from Caliban had been Scouts at best when they were selected for the Primaris.

 

It's interesting if it's the former. I don't dispute that the Dark Angels gene-line Primaris recruits could have been from Caliban, in fact I thought they all were, what I have a problem with is the description of them as "Marines," because that isn't supposed to be able to happen based on the written implantation order of the Primaris organs.

 

Now I imagine even if the all Primaris successor chapters are unaware of the larger hunt for the fallen and all that hooplah, that they would still have the same military structure as their parent chapter to a) not raise suspicion, and b ) comply with the fact that Guilliman told Azrael that the Dark Angels had earned the right to keep their unique formations and that those formations were pretty useful in just the regular eternal war as well.

Even if the Primaris Chapters had that kind of "structure," it's pretty much meaningless if them don't have the same functions - what does a "Deathwing" Company of all Primaris Aggressors do if they aren't the mailed fist that teleports in to cut the head off the Fallen snake when one is found? How does an exceptionally fast outrider Company function if it has no bikes, speeders, or interceptor aircraft?

 

I actually have less trouble swallowing that there might be something akin to the Deathwing as a company in a Primaris Chapter providing heavily armed and armored veteran Marines, but the Ravenwing idea just doesn't really pan out right now with what we know of current Primaris armaments.

[Guest]

Marines from Caliban was a poor choice of words on my part :P

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, I'm really interested in how the Primaris are generated, because a small part of me still hopes that full-fledged/implantation finished Marines can be "upgraded" to Primaris after the fact, so if any of the lore supports that, I would really like to know! :lol:

 

It would also be interesting because it would make me question why GW didn't lead with an important or semi-important character to the Big Four being upgraded, since they have made the Primaris Lieutenant models, so they could have devoted some modeling time to doing so.

 

It's a real sticking point for me with the Primaris and their lore.

[Gearcrow]

They don't make it clear in Dark Imperium novel if the Primaris Dark Angel was already a Marine or not when he was turned Primaris, only that he is from Caliban, which is what I meant, but maybe worded clumsily. I highly doubt he was already a Marine though, it just seems unlikely. Not all Primaris Dark Angels are from Caliban though. As I mentioned before the ones in War of Secrets seem to all be from Terra or Mars. To quote from 1d4chan, 

 

The book "War of Secrets" has the Primaris Marines of the Dark Angels (and by implication, all Primaris Marines of Terran stock) heavily influenced by the culture of Mars: they call the Emperor the Omnissiah, reverently call their creator 'Pater Cawl', and swear to the glory of "chapter, Terra and Mars". This raises the question of if they are more loyal to the Adeptus Mechanicus than the Imperium or even their own Chapter. Indeed, in the book its one of the main reasons the Dark Angels don't trust them.

 

 

With regards to already existing Marines being upgraded, well, it's kinda in the air. There was an early GW Facebook feed (that I now of course cannot find) that explicitly said regular Marines can be upgraded to Primaris. Unfortunately they have not referenced this again in any of the lore that I can find... so maybe yes maybe no?

 

Lastly a Ravenwing formation would still make a lot of sense even if you were not specifically hunting the Fallen. Same for Deathwing. The speed, extraction, and shock and awe teleportation stratagems are all very useful in a myriad of scenarios. Again though, I am kind of assuming that the release of Primaris Biker rumors later this year are true. You could then theoretically field an all Primaris 2nd Company Ravenwing-style force with Bikers and maybe Inceptors. But who knows at this stage.

[Bryan Blaire]

Again though, I am kind of assuming that the release of Primaris Biker rumors later this year are true.

I long ago learned never to base my arguments for things on rumors for future models. There are too many ways that people have been "right, but wrong" that makes what is said invalid because it was based on misinterpretation, even if the rumors turn out to be "true from a certain point of view."

 

There was an early GW Facebook feed (that I now of course cannot find) that explicitly said regular Marines can be upgraded to Primaris. Unfortunately they have not referenced this again in any of the lore that I can find... so maybe yes maybe no?

Given the actual text of the Primaris organ implantation in the Index Astartes, I would say that unless there is text that refutes that, a missing Facebook or Twitch feed comment (that may have even been taken out of context) doesn't do so, and therefore the answer is No still, which may be retconned into a Yes later.

 

Lastly a Ravenwing formation would still make a lot of sense even if you were not specifically hunting the Fallen. Same for Deathwing. The speed, extraction, and shock and awe teleportation stratagems are all very useful in a myriad of scenarios. You could then theoretically field an all Primaris 2nd Company Ravenwing-style force with Bikers and maybe Inceptors.

I didn't say that there wouldn't be legitimate functions for them, what I was alluding to and should have said is that at this time, they can't even have those functions.

 

Since Gravis doesn't have the Teleport Strike rule and apparently hasn't been shown in the lore to be able to teleport, we have to assume that Gravis armor doesn't have that capability (right now), therefore they can't be a teleporting "mailed fist," so that function (shock and awe, immediate strike to cut the head off the snake) of the Deathwing is down the tubes. About the only thing similar would be an entire Company of nothing but Inceptors, however, if you do that, then what do you have to perform the Ravenwing function? A second company completely of Inceptors? And Inceptors don't strike me as the Scouting/outrider type function, more like a ranged Assault Squad function, so they don't seem very Ravenwing-y. You could possibly go more the Reiver route, but they don't seem a fast as bikers or speeders would be, so I still don't see how they'd be "Ravenwing" when even back to the Order of the Raven's Wing, that has been a mounted force.

 

Unfortunately there's nothing in the Primaris lore or game rules right now that would really reflect them being able to field things that would function similarly enough to the Deathwing and Ravenwing's functions that gives me the impression that there would really be a way for the order of battle of a Chapter like the Blades of Vengeance to really align with the Dark Angels. I think at best you are looking at maybe two veteran companies or something that may try to align themselves with styles of combat, but can't really pull it off the way their progenitor companies do, so they'd have to adapt some different functions in there.

 

I also had the impression that the comment from Guilliman that the Unforgiven could keep their unique formations seemed to be more about their actual current DA organization with the current Marines, not that the Primaris would actually be able to fit into it cleanly or might not necessitate change later.

 

Granted, if there is truth to the rumor of Primaris bikers, that could change things in the future (and they could build it in as a retcon - lore-wise they've always been there, but for "reasons" they haven't been shown on screen, but that doesn't actually make them a "legitimate-in-existence-now" thing), but I'm not about to start making or accepting arguments that "could" be the case. If we want to have a discussion of what-ifs, that's a completely different situation, I've got all sorts of wish-lists for Primaris stuff.

 

I think it's really hard to figure out exactly what GW meant given what we have written for us to understand, but I think the fact that they specifically didn't outline how the Primaris Chapters of Unforgiven (are they really?) actually function speaks to a lack of defined operation in manner like the Deathwing and Ravenwing right now, maybe that GW themselves haven't actually decided how the Primaris really would function in a DA-like organization. While it is normal for the Unforgiven to be in the dark (puns!), it seems like the Primaris just don't really shine for non-normal operational types.

[Malios]

I suppose the question needs to be asked: are they an Unforgiven chapter or just a chapter made from dark angels gene seed?

 

The Angels of Vengeance is an example of the former and features their equivalents of the deathwing and ravenwing. The Star Phantoms are an example of the latter (who the Dark Angels strictly deny) and for all intents are codex-compliant without the deathwing and ravenwing.

 

I would imagine for now that Primaris (or even older, lesser known) chapters who aren't formally recognised as the Unforgiven will simply be codex compliant chapters.

 

Fast forward an edition or two when primaris models take a more dominant stage in codexes and older marines start to disappear, we'll see.

[robofish7591]

Personally, I am just holding off on declaring that any of my Blades of Vengeance marines are from the first or second companies until the primaris line gets fleshed out and we get more fluff on how primaris are organized within the Dark Angels.  I am just painting them up as 3rd company for now, as its a pretty safe bet that the 3rd company will remain a battle company.

 

I do hope that these primaris biker rumors are true though.  I really like the primaris models so far, I just feel that the primaris range is pretty limited.  I especially want to see additional options for characters and sergeants, especially since having so many different options is one of the reasons I like space marines!