A question about Lion and the Wolf Stratagem

[Orkinstein]

 

For a character with WS2+ will become WS1+. In the core rule, it says: "A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply." But my question is that a modified "1" still fails here? Since now the WS is 1+... 

[Halandaar]

You answered the question yourself.

 

 

"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply."

[Orkinstein]

 

You answered the question yourself.

 

 

"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply."

 

 

Oh, so hit roll of 2 for thunder hammer will still miss? That is very a bad rule design though ... one of them in our codex ... 

[CyberC1]

In the case of a thunderhammer wielding master...

 

Lion & the Wolf makes his WS2+ go to a 1+.  Then the thunderhammer modifier is applied, so you still effectively still hit on 2+'s.  Slap on Fury of the Lion on him just for kicks...

[Orkinstein]

In the case of a thunderhammer wielding master...

 

Lion & the Wolf makes his WS2+ go to a 1+.  Then the thunderhammer modifier is applied, so you still effectively still hit on 2+'s.  Slap on Fury of the Lion on him just for kicks...

 

So only if I roll real 1s the hit will miss?

[KhorneHunter57x]

So only if I roll real 1s the hit will miss?

Correct.

[CyberC1]

And remember that the Master can re-roll 1's.

[Orkinstein]

 

So only if I roll real 1s the hit will miss?

Correct.

 

 

 

And remember that the Master can re-roll 1's.

 

Wow. Thanks! I am going to smash something... 

[CyberC1]

haha yeah - i was planning on running a runepriest + packs of wolves as screeners to soak up mortal wounds from smite etc as a detachment for the strategem, then buff my thunderhammer wielding master with a jump pack to insane levels...

[sneakybamsen]

Can I remind you all that it's no guaranteed effect? You might spend the CP and see it do absolutely nothing. Creating two characters (from different codices/indexes meaning two detachments) to use with this stratagem might not be a valid strategy to begin with. In theory, yes, you could have absolutely no effect from Weapons from the Dark Age on a turn as well, but it's a lot less likely to happen.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Can I remind you all that it's no guaranteed effect? You might spend the CP and see it do absolutely nothing. Creating two characters (from different codices/indexes meaning two detachments) to use with this stratagem might not be a valid strategy to begin with. In theory, yes, you could have absolutely no effect from Weapons from the Dark Age on a turn as well, but it's a lot less likely to happen.

 

Actually it is a guaranteed effect, two models in your army get the increased stats, at the POSSIBLE price of a mortal wound. Is it competitive? Of course not. Would I be willing to borrow Dark Angel models in order to do this just for the heck of it? Oh yeah.

 

Still I understand what you mean, for the strategem to be effective, the 2 affected models have to actually fight something. Not to mention the whole 2 detachment tax issue.

 

To me, best used on a model that is multi wound and is WS3+, or BS3+. For both Dark Angels and Space Wolves, probably best put it on Rune Priest and Librarian, where one of their WS or BS is 3+. Rune Priest for example is WS2+ but BS3+. with that boost, you now shoot/hit on 2+, and more useful, your swords will wound on 3+.

[sneakybamsen]

I'm sorry, you are right, Hawser. I misread the stratagem. The bonus being guaranteed makes it a lot more useful (not good by any means to me, I hate Space Wolves, both DA and TS player, so who can blame me? ;) )

 

If Spacewolves get the same strat, which would kind of make sense, I'd be inclined to say I'd be more likely to use it (if I played the wolves), as the wolves have a talent for getting in close, DA do not.

 

No doubt, if you have models available for using it for fun and giggles, by all means, go ahead, but it's not going to be a game-changer.

[Orkinstein]

I'm sorry, you are right, Hawser. I misread the stratagem. The bonus being guaranteed makes it a lot more useful (not good by any means to me, I hate Space Wolves, both DA and TS player, so who can blame me? )

 

If Spacewolves get the same strat, which would kind of make sense, I'd be inclined to say I'd be more likely to use it (if I played the wolves), as the wolves have a talent for getting in close, DA do not.

 

No doubt, if you have models available for using it for fun and giggles, by all means, go ahead, but it's not going to be a game-changer.

 

Pick up a 1 w SW model and hope he will dead in fight, if not spend a command point to reroll it that is 75% chance! Blood for the B... err ... Emperor! Do it before every battle! 

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I'm sorry, you are right, Hawser. I misread the stratagem. The bonus being guaranteed makes it a lot more useful (not good by any means to me, I hate Space Wolves, both DA and TS player, so who can blame me? )

 

If Spacewolves get the same strat, which would kind of make sense, I'd be inclined to say I'd be more likely to use it (if I played the wolves), as the wolves have a talent for getting in close, DA do not.

 

No doubt, if you have models available for using it for fun and giggles, by all means, go ahead, but it's not going to be a game-changer.

 

Pick up a 1 w SW model and hope he will dead in fight, if not spend a command point to reroll it that is 75% chance! Blood for the B... err ... Emperor! Do it before every battle! 

 

 

Sigh, this is about as funny as all the dark Angel traitor jokes. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised, unread people still ask me in meta of Russ returning as a khornate daemon, even after the guy who originally made the rumor and fake warscroll came out and said it was a joke. Memes. Love them or hate them. And after reading my fair share of DA stories and novels (much as I hate Gav Thorpe), in the end I came to the conclusion that I like the DA as well, in another time and place, I might have chosen the DA as my chapter of choice, not the Space Wolves.

 

@ sneaky - At any rate, Wolves do not have any specific chapter tactic that improves our speed or ensure 1st turn charge, whereas for Dark Angels, at least you can possibly use it for a bike character, maybe even a Black Knight sergeant to upgrade him to WS2+, BS2+, S5 and Ld 9. Well, Thunderwolves are a thing, but they look ridiculous and are considerably slower, movement 10". no reroll to charge. I still think your Librarian on bikes still benefit.

 

What we do have however is superb devastators or Long Fangs who have a natural reroll one if they declare a certain target as their, well, target. This applies even on the move, so you don't have to stand still as opposed to your Grim Resolve.

 

If you guys want to try a relatively cheap yet useful detachment, I would suggest a Spearhead detachment of 1 wolf guard battle leader with Jump pack) and 3 Long Fangs squads with whatever weapon you want. Don't have to give them all the same heavy weapon, just mix and match or even just add one Lascannon per squad. Trust me, it'll confuse your opponent on whether to target that squad with just 1 Lascannon in it. And if you move, you still reroll ones to one target.

 

Actually another even cheaper way, use Long Fangs with just a plasma gun on the Long Fang pack leader, a Combi Plasma on the Wolf Guard sergeant, and use Cunning of the Wolf to outflank (come from any table edge). It's like a slightly more expensive plasma MSU that can reroll ones. I haven't use it though, as it goes against my mindset of Long Fangs being heavy weapons specialists, not to be used like a tactical squad.

 

In case you wondering how much that adds up, the 2nd option is about is about 400 points. with 3 heavy weapons each, can come up to 500 points.

[mika_angelus]

 

 

Can I remind you all that it's no guaranteed effect? You might spend the CP and see it do absolutely nothing. Creating two characters (from different codices/indexes meaning two detachments) to use with this stratagem might not be a valid strategy to begin with. In theory, yes, you could have absolutely no effect from Weapons from the Dark Age on a turn as well, but it's a lot less likely to happen.

Actually it is a guaranteed effect, two models in your army get the increased stats, at the POSSIBLE price of a mortal wound. Is it competitive? Of course not.

I usually don't write, only read this forum, but I have to chime in here.

This is one of the best Dark Angel stratagems. For 1 cp it gives you two smash captains that are comparable to blood angel smash captains.

It is very competitive in my opinnion.

I've painted a wolf with jp and thunder hammer just for this gem, and I use this in every game I play.

 

I'm on phone so can't do multi quote here, but to whoever wanted to put it on a thunderwolf or a black knight : you can't as it works only on infantry models.

[Orkinstein]

Usually what I do it's that 1 jump wolflord with hammer, 1 Intercessor and 1 hellblaster squad.

 

Spend 1CP to outflank hellblaster. DS wolflord with them for reroll 1. Works for me.

 

Wolf scout is not a troop and cannot infiltrate are really annoying.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I usually don't write, only read this forum, but I have to chime in here.

This is one of the best Dark Angel stratagems. For 1 cp it gives you two smash captains that are comparable to blood angel smash captains.

It is very competitive in my opinnion.

I've painted a wolf with jp and thunder hammer just for this gem, and I use this in every game I play.

 

I'm on phone so can't do multi quote here, but to whoever wanted to put it on a thunderwolf or a black knight : you can't as it works only on infantry models.

 

 

I stand corrected, forgot about the only infantry bit. So yeah, a Jump Pack Company Master or Jump Pack Wolf Lord is best and fastest here. I hope you tried it before.

 

 

Usually what I do it's that 1 jump wolflord with hammer, 1 Intercessor and 1 hellblaster squad.

 

Spend 1CP to outflank hellblaster. DS wolflord with them for reroll 1. Works for me.

 

Wolf scout is not a troop and cannot infiltrate are really annoying.

 

Tell me about it, really irritating that neophytes out of Space Marine school know how to hide better than the grizzled veterans of the Wolf Scouts.

[mika_angelus]

 

 

I usually don't write, only read this forum, but I have to chime in here.

This is one of the best Dark Angel stratagems. For 1 cp it gives you two smash captains that are comparable to blood angel smash captains.

It is very competitive in my opinnion.

I've painted a wolf with jp and thunder hammer just for this gem, and I use this in every game I play.

 

I'm on phone so can't do multi quote here, but to whoever wanted to put it on a thunderwolf or a black knight : you can't as it works only on infantry models.

 

I stand corrected, forgot about the only infantry bit. So yeah, a Jump Pack Company Master or Jump Pack Wolf Lord is best and fastest here. I hope you tried it before.

Like I wrote I use this almost every time I play dark angels.

Those two captains do kill a lot of stuff, including knights.

[Tommytheone]

This stratagem might also make more sense once the SW codex is out. If the SW turnout to be the outflanking melee monsters they are rumoured to become, they might synergise well with a DA gun line.

 

Right now, it's use really only makes sense on a JP TH captain, but why would you ally with SW for such a captain when BA offer the same, if not better options. (and it doesn't cost you a CP)

[mika_angelus]

BA also costs cp. For death visions of sanguinius.

With the wolf I don't loose anything when I put him in an outrider detachment with da speeders or black knights, or even a spearhead with some tanks.

For the ba captain you need a whole detachment of BA to get the chapter trait and their stratagems, relics. That costs extra points.

[Basteala]

I think part of the problem is that not a lot of models benefit enough from it. The best I could think of is if you've decked your Lieutenant supporting Azzy with a Power Fist (or Thunder Hammer, but that's expensive), you basically gain 4 attacks (much better than three), hit on 2s (again, better than threes), and S10 isn't completely useless, and makes your ~75 point piece really smashy. Trouble is...DA works best on its own in many ways--the Darkshroud and Azzy bonuses are things that make DA better than vanilla marines, but do nothing for allied armies.

 

Now, if Space Wolves can help answer weaknesses for DA, then Marine Soup there might be decent. It really depends on what the SW codex does for us. If their rules are really good for Aggressors or some other counter charge unit, that could be good, as there will synergy with Eye of the Unseen, since that affects the enemy. Between that, and buffing your bodyguards for Azzy, then we might be talking.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Yep, in the end, it's a strategem that benefits only 2 models getting into close combat, or at range, getting within melta or plasma range. Fluffy but situational. It's something you need to build your army around, which I believe is the intent of this strategem, to get you crossdressers to buy more furries, and for me to buy more crossdressers. More money for GW. :)

 

Partially serious, for the first time, it DOES give me an excuse to buy DA, I actually bought a DA veteran box when this strategem was revealed and I hope I don't regret it later.

[CCE1981]

If you take an apothecary with your DA, and a Wolf Priest with your wolves, you don’t have to worry about the possible wounds.

[Basteala]

If you take an apothecary with your DA, and a Wolf Priest with your wolves, you don’t have to worry about the possible wounds.

 

That's a lot of points for the stratagem and situational use. You're already having to pay an additional HQ tax for two detachments

[Kasper_Hawser]

If you take an apothecary with your DA, and a Wolf Priest with your wolves, you don’t have to worry about the possible wounds.

 

Yep. Maybe a DA apothecary maybe relatively expensive, but a Wolf Priest cost more than a whopping 100 points naked. 

 

I rather make sure my S10 Thunderhammer hits one either model if I use this strategem and list.