CP regeneration. Degenerate or Ok?

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

My two cents on the how to give better CP issue. What if factions had a CP multiplier? E.g. space marines have a multiplier of 1.5, Deathwatch/GK get a 1.75 (supposed to be more specialized and elite), Custodes and Knights get a 2.0 multiplier, etc., rounding the decimal up. This would give armies that have a harder time filling out detachments a chance at more CP than some armies like guard or orks that have hordes of troops and buckets of CP.

Hopefully this would deincentivize taking batteries for CP, because there is still enough CP to actually do something (my current Space Marine infantry list, for example, has 8-9 CP after the BRB CP, would now have 12-13 CP, enough to comfortably use a couple CP per turn without worrying about running out. [Now if I had better stratagems to use those CP’s I would be even happier, but that’s another thread entirely])

 

If it works right it may give everyone a similar number of CP’s without having to muck about with different CP generation for different detachments, or make games completely boring with the exact same number of CP’s on all sides.

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail

 

I am of the opinion that all these stratagems hardly do anything positive for the game. My regular opponent regularly fields two Astra Militarum battallions and then a Custodes force - naturally with the CP regen-farm. Even getting a single battallion is sometimes a challenge for my Chaos Space Marines (I have 20 Cultists...and play Black Legion...).

 

So - not a particular fan of the entire Command Points thing.

 

Faithfully,

Master Ciaphas

[Azekai]

Hail

 

I am of the opinion that all these stratagems hardly do anything positive for the game. My regular opponent regularly fields two Astra Militarum battallions and then a Custodes force - naturally with the CP regen-farm. Even getting a single battallion is sometimes a challenge for my Chaos Space Marines (I have 20 Cultists...and play Black Legion...).

 

So - not a particular fan of the entire Command Points thing.

 

Faithfully,

Master Ciaphas

What, you don’t like eating ‘Vengeance for Cadia’ rerolls every single shooting phase?

 

I like the idea of rewarding elite armies with more cp, and allies always apply a (slight) penalty. Detachments from allies are always treated as an auxiliary detachment: -1 cp.

 

This stops the battery nonsense. Stratagems are interesting but I don’t think GW has figured out how to implement them in a way that doesn’t incentivize silly lists.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

One of things I've noticed from playing kill team, is how much the game benifits from having a large number of core stratagems. So I like the ideal of expanding the ones that every army can use, setting the number of command points to a fixed point, then applying small penalties for allies, and the more elite detachments.

[MARK0SIAN]

It’d be interesting to hear from the game designers how they originally envisioned Stratagems working in a game, specifically how many and how often they would be used in a match.

 

I’m making a lot of assumptions here so bear with me but I think they probably intended a detachment like a battalion to be your whole list, it’s certainly big enough to do that for most games. If that’s the case (and I could be wrong) then it would seem they originally thought that 6CP would be enough for a game. Now they obviously knew the cost of the stratagems and we all know that 6CP is hardly even enough for 1 stratagem every turn.

 

To me, this suggests they planned on stratagems actually being played a lot more rarely than they are now. But this then seems at odds with the number of stratagems they gave us, the big deal they made about them and how important some of them are.

 

It’d be nice to have some clarification from them and let us know, should we be trying to fix it so Stratagems are quite a rare but powerful tool, or, should we be trying to fix it so that each faction has access to a large CP pool and can use multiple stratagems per turn.

 

Either way my point doesn’t address the CP imbalance between factions and I could be totally wrong in my assumptions, but perhaps we also need to revise our view of how many stratagems we should reasonably expect to use in a game.

[Finkmilkana]

Nah, I think two battalion or one brigade (which most factions could easily fill if they wanted too) for a 2000 points game is probably what they envisioned. At the release of 8th that would mean 9/12 CP (and even more since the faq) which is enough for a balanced game without enabling the spamming of every stratagem. Incidentally, 9 is also what a pure knights army currently gets minimum (unless they field a very weird combination), so I don’t think it makes sense to assume they expect games to be played with less.

[Kinstryfe]

One of things I've noticed from playing kill team, is how much the game benifits from having a large number of core stratagems. So I like the ideal of expanding the ones that every army can use, setting the number of command points to a fixed point, then applying small penalties for allies, and the more elite detachments.

I'll echo this, from playing a lot of Kill Team as well. I actually think that the KT model of generating CP may be an option worth them exploring (which since I think it's very similar to AoS2.0, I actually kind of think will be what we're getting come 40k8.1). Getting X CP per game round, plus Y CP per game round when your Warlord is on the table, plus possibly some bonus CP to start depending on Warlord choice (ala Calgar) may be an effective way to both make CP closer to equal as well as limiting some of the devastating effects of blowing thru 11CP on game turn 1. I may have to test this out with a buddy when we do our ugoigo test.

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly I like for speciality detachments to get bumped to 2 Command Points. And for Patrol’s to get bumped to 2 Command Point, while getting it modify to be 1 HQ And 2 Troops. Just my food for thought anyways.

[BlackTriton]

Honestly I like for speciality detachments to get bumped to 2 Command Points. And for Patrol’s to get bumped to 2 Command Point, while getting it modify to be 1 HQ And 2 Troops. Just my food for thought anyways.

In the short term, something like that would make sense.

 

 

I agree with chapter master 454 that the system would be better if the rewards for a given detachment where dependent on the faction, allowing for more balance between factions. It could potetially incourage different formation for different faction while having all of them availlable for everyone.

 

Overall, CP regeneration is out of hand. While not a bad mechanic in itself, it impacts the game disproportionately for its cost. The fix is then to either lower the impact (lowering the odds) or to increase the cost(no idea how).

Or we could just overhaul the whole CP system.

[Schlitzaf]

The main thing is CP has a point of diminishing returns after around 10-12 post pre-game strategems. You don’t really need more than that or otherwise.

[Finkmilkana]

The main thing is CP has a point of diminishing returns after around 10-12 post pre-game strategems. You don’t really need more than that or otherwise.

Sadly, this depends a lot on the factions. Some really don’t need more, while some can spend 10 CP a turn and still have more stratagems they would really like to play (the “worst” might be a full DW army, if they could they probably would spend 20+ CP a turn on useful stuff). The number of useful/important stratagems is sadly also not really balanced between factions.

[chapter master 454]

That is a bit of an issue. For all their points they could generate, Imperial Guard don't really need many points while armies like Knights could blast through 12 no problem. It really does come down to some armies having "power play" stratagems while others have Utility stratagems or ones that just don't do enough. Custodes have I believe 3-4 power play stratagems that let them go ham on enemies while marines only have 2-3 lesser versions while guard literally have none (unless I missed one. I looked and don't see any real power play stratagem).

 

It speaks volumes but yet it isn't a simple fix as it would require us to first have 8th edition complete and from there be able to do a full analysis of what went wrong and where. Hopefully GW are taking that into account and hopefully, even if it may be a couple of years I hope to see the next edition (if we have one) turn out to be "9th edition. It's 8th edition but without the screw ups".