Interaction between World Eaters Legion Trait and Berzerkers

[Vorenus]

P. 157 of the Chaos Space Marines Codex lists the Legion Traits.  The World Eaters' Legion Trait is "Butcher's Nails":  "When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one additional attack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase."

 

Khorne Berzerkers, found on p. 132, have the ability "Blood for the Blood God," which reads:  "This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once."

 

I think I have been using these two rules in combination incorrectly.  I have been applying +1 Attack to the Khorne Berzerkers BOTH times they fight in the Fight phase.  However, after reading and thinking about it a bit more this morning, I think this is incorrect.  I think the correct understanding and the correct way these rules interact with each other is that the Khorne Berzerkers would get +1 Attack to ONE of the two times they fight in the Fight phase.  The Legion Trait does not say that World Eaters gain a "+1 bonus to Attacks" or "Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic."  For comparison, the Black Legion Trait begins "Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. . . . "  Butcher's Nails simply says "make one additional attack."  

 

If I understand the combination correctly now, it would work like this:  A Khorne Berzerker has base 2 Attacks, meaning he actually has 4 attacks total in a single Fight phase because he can fight twice.  A World Eaters Khorne Berzerker would instead have a total of 5 Attacks in a single Fight phase, 2+1+2.  (And obviously the Berzerker can gain more attacks by wielding a Chainsword, but I'll leave that out for now for simplicity's sake.)

 

Is that how everyone else is applying these rules in combination?

[Cheex]

Like you, I've been playing it as +1 attack in each fight, but recently started thinking I've been playing it wrong.

 

If it was supposed to apply to both fights, then surely GW would simply say "adds 1 to its Attacks characteristic in the subsequent Fight phase", just like the Chaos Daemons codex says for Unstoppable Ferocity.

 

It seems to have been worded very specifically to only apply to one of the Berzerkers' fights that turn.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You've been doing it correctly. The rule states +1 attack during the subsequent Fight Phase. There's only one Fight Phase per turn, the Zerks merely activate twice during it. So yes, both times they fight (all three if you use Fury of Khorne) they get +1 attack per model.

[Raven1]

You've been doing it correctly. The rule states +1 attack during the subsequent Fight Phase. There's only one Fight Phase per turn, the Zerks merely activate twice during it. So yes, both times they fight (all three if you use Fury of Khorne) they get +1 attack per model.

I second that. It gives you +1 attack during the fight phase and you can activate more than once so the +1 attack would apply

[Panzer]

Yeah definitely +1A both times. It talks about the whole Fight phase, not just about the next activation.

[Scammel]

Have to say, I agree with OP's new interpretation; it would be blurrier without 'Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait' and variations like it. One additional attack per model per fight phase - not plus one to Attacks - seems pretty clear to me.

[Cheex]

You've been doing it correctly. The rule states +1 attack during the subsequent Fight Phase. There's only one Fight Phase per turn, the Zerks merely activate twice during it. So yes, both times they fight (all three if you use Fury of Khorne) they get +1 attack per model.

 

But the rule doesn't say they get "+1 attack during the subsequent Fight Phase". That would be a modification of the model's Attacks characteristic, so would work across all fight activations as you say.

 

What the rule actually says is: "you can make one additional attack with each of [the unit's] models in the subsequent Fight phase". This is not a modification of the characteristic; it's an instruction to roll one extra dice per model in the Fight phase. 

[crimsonhand]

Not that it's 'official' but when I asked a play tester from my area, he said you get +1 attack each time you fight. 
Again I wouldn't take that as gospel but until GW says otherwise I'm playing it that way 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm not sure the distinction you are making matter, Cheex.

 

The rule gives +1 A for the subsequent fight phase.

 

I think the problem is that, intuitively, people treat the 2nd activation as a second fight phase.  It isn't.  The fight phase is the whole melee portion of the turn - your attacks, your second activations and your opponent's attacks.

 

Whether or not the +1 A is a characteristics modifier, the rules say it applies in the subsequent fight phase (so, the fight phases after the charge phase in which the unit charged) - so it applies to all times you have to base something off of the models attack characteristic for that fight phase.  So, in other words, for both activations.

 

Sure, the rule could have been worded differently so it was (arguably) clearer, but that doesn't change that the rule works as it says it works - for the subsequent attack phase.

[Cheex]

I'm not sure the distinction you are making matter, Cheex.

 

It does matter.

 

"When a unit with this trait makes a successful charge, you can make one additional attack with each of its models in the subsequent Fight phase."

 

It's not modifying the model's Attacks characteristic, nor is it telling you to make one additional attack every time the model fights.

 

It's telling you to make one additional attack, total, in the Fight phase.

 

If you make one additional attack every time the model fights, and the model fights twice, then you have not made "one additional attack...in the subsequent Fight phase"; you've made two.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It says that because 99% of the time, a model will only fight once in the phase. Zerks break that mold. I see what you're saying now and a strict RAW - I mean, grammatically - you are correct. But RAI? Another story.

[Scammel]

It says that because 99% of the time, a model will only fight once in the phase. Zerks break that mold. I see what you're saying now and a strict RAW - I mean, grammatically - you are correct. But RAI? Another story.

It makes perfect sense to me that a 'Zerker would lose some of the initial impetus of the charge the second time they fight.

[techsoldaten]

Originally, I thought it was one additional attack in the fight phase, but someone changed my mind. On the rare occasion I play World Eaters, they get the extra attack each time they fight.

 

The way he explained it was like this: the BRB is clear every unit in 40k attacks once in the fight phase. Khorne Berzerkers break this rule by attacking twice.

 

What does fighting twice represent? The game proceeds according to phases and there are rules to each phase that apply for all units. There are Stratagems in 40k, which allow players to break the rules. But that's not what's happening here, Berzerkers get to attack twice - something no other unit in the game gets to do. Doing so breaks the rules.

 

If you look at Berzerkers as this "Exceptional unit" that gets to break the rules, fine, they get to fight twice. The extra attack applies the first time they fight and that's it. And, sure, datasheets sometimes allow you to ignore rules, so maybe that's a valid argument for Exceptional Berzerkers.

 

But if you look at Berzerkers as an "Ordinary unit" subject to all the rules of 40k, they are not really fighting twice. They have a lot of attacks and it takes time to get them all in. If that's the case, they are really just doubling the number of attacks in the fight phase. That means they get the extra attack each time they fight.

 

The Ordinary Berzerker theory is easier to reconcile with the core rules than the Exceptional Berzerker theory. Fewer rules have to change to explain how it happens, it means they don't have to become walking, chopping Stratagems. So I go with that.

 

For the record, an extra attack from Berzerkers matters a statistically irrelevant amount of the time. When they charge, a target is either wiped out or the Berzerkers just don't have the tools to get the job done. Part of the reason I accept the simpler answer is because I don't spend time on issues that don't matter.

[Khornestar]

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

For all purposes.

 

The unit charges. It counts as having charged this turn.

 

Fight 1: Unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

Fight 2: This is treated as a separate unit fighting. It doesn’t count as having fought once already (for all purposes). The unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

 

That’s how I see it, anyhow. No one has ever suggested otherwise, IRL.

[Scammel]

 

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

For all purposes.

 

The unit charges. It counts as having charged this turn.

 

Fight 1: Unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

Fight 2: This is treated as a separate unit fighting. It doesn’t count as having fought once already (for all purposes). The unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

 

That’s how I see it, anyhow. No one has ever suggested otherwise, IRL.

 

Ok, this text would make me comfortable with two additional attacks over the course of the phase, but only because this text exists. Without it, it would still be the one attack, regardless of 

 

exceptional Berzerker theory

[Cheex]

 

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

For all purposes.

 

The unit charges. It counts as having charged this turn.

 

Fight 1: Unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

Fight 2: This is treated as a separate unit fighting. It doesn’t count as having fought once already (for all purposes). The unit has charged. World Eaters legion rule kicks in: +1 attack on the charge.

 

 

That’s how I see it, anyhow. No one has ever suggested otherwise, IRL.

Ohh, good catch.

 

Ok, point conceded.