Knights, and GW event policies.

[Stray]

My understanding (at the time I write this), is that it is currently policy at GW during any of their events or tournaments, that players must use the 'tradition' or other special sub-faction rule that matches the colour scheme you have chosen to paint your army.

 

So for example, if you turn up with your Knights painted as House Terryn, you must then use the House Terryn tradition - you may not field them as say, House Krast.

 

It's entirely possible that policy has changed and my information is out of date, (please let me know if so!) But for the sake of discussion anyway how do people feel about this in general?

 

I find myself somewhat torn...

Part of me really likes the idea that the fluff is being supported to a degree. However, I'm also well aware that our hobby isn't cheap, and rules change quite quickly. While I'd appreciate anyone who is running a fluffier list, I'd never, ever personally have an issue with a person I was playing using whatever rule they feel most comfortable with.

 

Then again, I can also make the argument to myself that such a policy also encourages people to be creative and invent their own custom sub-factions (as the same policy also says that custom forces like this may use any of the available 'rules').

 

Beyond the sub factions, how would we expect this to affect people like my fellow House Malinax enthusiast Charlo, who I know runs his (and I believe he absolutely should have the option to do so) as a Loyalist force. Would GW force someone in this position to then run their Knights as a Renegade House as they are painted in Renegade colours?

 

Finally, is this policy likely to spread further as it's coming from GW? Would you expect to see this adopted locally in stores for example?

 

Thoughts?

[hermanista]

It's out of date,

 

Paint them how you like and use whichever rules.

 

If it was marines they can be Ultramarine blue in colour but use white scars rules if you wanted, it's all just down to the keywords.

[hermanista]

The only bit where it woukd matter, is if your malinax used the Imperial Knight codex, you would be included in the Imperial side for best in race, not Chaos.

[Atia]

It's out of date,

 

Paint them how you like and use whichever rules.

 

If it was marines they can be Ultramarine blue in colour but use white scars rules if you wanted, it's all just down to the keywords.

Actually, the latest FAQ's changed that back to "Ultramarines must be Ultramarines", as per the OP.

[hermanista]

 

 

It's out of date,

 

Paint them how you like and use whichever rules.

 

If it was marines they can be Ultramarine blue in colour but use white scars rules if you wanted, it's all just down to the keywords.

Actually, the latest FAQ's changed that back to "Ultramarines must be Ultramarines", as per the OP.

 

In that case I apologise, I missed that bit!

 

That's cool then.

 

The malinax comment should still stand though, that you can choose a tradition for your force

[Stray]

Here's the specific wording from the Event Pack for this seasons 40K GT heats:

 

'If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme. For example, if you have painted your models as Salamanders, your army must have the Salamanders keyword. If you have created your own unique colour scheme, then you may give them any keyword that you wish.'

 

https://s20889.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/40K8_Grand_Tournament_Rules_Pack_2018_19_1.1.pdf

 

That'd also seem to imply that Malinax Knights (for example) can't be fielded as Loyalists/Imperium at events (If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect you to use the rules relevant to that scheme).

 

Having established it is indeed a thing, what do we think?

[hermanista]

They flip flipped on that then, as iirc it was like that, then they stopped it - see the uproar about sigmarines being specific colours in aos as an example.

 

Now they've returned to it.

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

 

I'm less fussed about wanting to offload my knights to redo them in yellow/hawkshroud colours but still use Mechanicus rules now though.

 

Will be keeping my generic red and black/grey scheme and enjoying the freedom it brings.

[Stray]

It does seem to be the smart move right now for many of us doesn't it? Using custom colour schemes. 

 

This will likely be a thing until at least well into 2019 given that's how long this Tournament Pack / FAQ applies. Given that, I have to feel a lot of sympathy though for anyone who now feels 'locked in' to a rule they don't care for because they liked a colour scheme.

 

I guess CA could potentially make changes to a sub faction rule also. If a more competitive player has picked say an Stygies colour scheme for the -1 to hit rule, and that was removed, do we feel that's ok? I mean, we'd pretty much have to live with it, but how do we feel about it?

 

Personally, I'm not really affected by it. I don't get to play much, and would quite happily run my Knights as they are painted. The other army I'm working on is done in custom colours. I'm sure though that a few people out there are likely left a little sore...

[Karhedron]

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

 

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

[Karhedron]

I have dropped an email to 40KFAQ@gwplc.com to complain (politely) about this decision.

 

If enough of us do the same, they might change their minds (at least for future events).

[hermanista]

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

 

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

If it looks like an Ultramarine, smells like and Ultramarine, has the markings of an Ultramarine...

[synthaside]

Stray , Im attending a couple of GT events and a My Skitarii are " white " ... I have never once had a problem with judges saying I couldnt use Stygies or mars ... or whatever I was rostered as ...  provided it wasn't misleading to the opposing player 

 

That line from GW makes me reconsider .... but then to what degree are they holding to this ???  ... ??  Just because you have used White scar " White" does that make them white scars ? surely not .... I can't remember quite how " Household"  you are painted  but one could argue my Matilda  " painted to match my Metallica  Skitari .... looks AWFULLY close to a variation of malinax  you could easily use them as house raven ..... while there scheme is  Red ,  due to the ties with Metallica they have been known to take to feild in matching colouts.    https://photos.app.goo.gl/tSYHNc4reNtMvPzb9

 

In other news I was surfing away and found this ..... I think you need a mug ...

https://teespring.com/coffee-like-mechanicum-mug?page=2&tsmac=store&tsmic=phyrix-30k#pid=522&cid=101894&sid=front

[Stray]

I think the ruling is less about colour and more about actually having a clearly defined 'sub-faction' on the table Synth. That's my impression anyway.

 

Both Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are red for example, but clearly they are different Chapters? So presumably if you have white Skitarii, that doesn't automatically make them Stygies, however if you followed the rest of the scheme for Stygies too... yeah, you could now be expected to play as them.

 

Best bet if in doubt I'd guess would be to contact the events team beforehand - same as you have to with regard to conversions?

 

With regard to what level they're holding people to the rule... I don't know. Admittedly I kinda hope Herm would as I know he attends a few events at WHW - could you keep your eyes and ears open at the GT Herm? See how this is being handled and fill us in?

 

I love that mug buddy! :D - and christ! Your Crusader and Drill are gorgeous!

[Kinstryfe]

 

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

If it looks like an Ultramarine, smells like and Ultramarine, has the markings of an Ultramarine...

...then it's probably an Alpha Legion infiltrator?

 

This is kind of a dumb rule. I get it, but it's still dumb. Little Timmy who sprays his Marines with offbrand orange primer and dips them in floor polish has an advantage over a lovingly painted masterpiece of an army. Next I assume you won't be able to use any guard Regiment except Cadian if you use Cadian bodies on your models.

[jeffersonian000]

The best answer is to choose your own custom paint scheme, pick the faction rules you like, and stick with it. No one argue with you, since it’s your own custom house using House Krast rules.

 

SJ

 

Edit - for example, my Knight Errant has been painted silver and gold since 6th, because I used to use it with my GK. Now that I know House Steel is a Mechanicus Knight House on Deimos, I want to build a Knight House painted in silver using House Raven traditions and strats.

[hermanista]

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

If it looks like an Ultramarine, smells like and Ultramarine, has the markings of an Ultramarine...

...then it's probably an Alpha Legion infiltrator?

 

This is kind of a dumb rule. I get it, but it's still dumb. Little Timmy who sprays his Marines with offbrand orange primer and dips them in floor polish has an advantage over a lovingly painted masterpiece of an army. Next I assume you won't be able to use any guard Regiment except Cadian if you use Cadian bodies on your models.

Is little Timmy going to the 40k GT though?

 

I can understand GW enforcing standards for their premier event of the year, in your own home, local club, Indy events etc do what what you fancy.

 

At the home of GW in their main events though, I completely understand those guidelines and have no problem with it.

 

It is after all only 4 (5 if you include the final) events a year

[Azekai]

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

If it looks like an Ultramarine, smells like and Ultramarine, has the markings of an Ultramarine...

...then it's probably an Alpha Legion infiltrator?

 

This is kind of a dumb rule. I get it, but it's still dumb. Little Timmy who sprays his Marines with offbrand orange primer and dips them in floor polish has an advantage over a lovingly painted masterpiece of an army. Next I assume you won't be able to use any guard Regiment except Cadian if you use Cadian bodies on your models.

 

Not really; this is about visual communication. If you have a bunch of Iron Warriors but run some of them as World Eaters and your havocs as are count-as Alpha Legion (but again, they all look like IW) things get confusing. If your different formations are all painted the same, I can see why they would instate this rule. 

 

Little Timmy's spray-painted wonders are not going to fly either, because they are homogenous. Now, if he painted some of them orange and others green, and counted one as a BA successor and the other as Salamanders, well, I imagine that would be alright.

 

[synthaside]

I think the ruling is less about colour and more about actually having a clearly defined 'sub-faction' on the table Synth. That's my impression anyway.

 

Both Blood Ravens and Blood Angels are red for example, but clearly they are different Chapters? So presumably if you have white Skitarii, that doesn't automatically make them Stygies, however if you followed the rest of the scheme for Stygies too... yeah, you could now be expected to play as them.

 

Best bet if in doubt I'd guess would be to contact the events team beforehand - same as you have to with regard to conversions?

 

With regard to what level they're holding people to the rule... I don't know. Admittedly I kinda hope Herm would as I know he attends a few events at WHW - could you keep your eyes and ears open at the GT Herm? See how this is being handled and fill us in?

 

I love that mug buddy! - and christ! Your Crusader and Drill are gorgeous!

 

Cheers, that was a little while back before the transfers and weathering went on Matilda is even more resplendent these days and the drill is a bit more " weathered" ..... I got my Mechanedrites on some typhus corrosion.

 

100%  send a photo to the organiser ... with you intended list, I sent that same photo to an event organiser myself to confirm they were ok with me using a 3rd party / Terrax Assualt drill ... along with a size comparison to a rhino ....  they totally were ... the reason the knights there is for scale. , I didn't think you needed to see the rhino.

 

 

A simple as i want to run these as  " X house " .... they responded pretty quickly too .

 

I have to admit ... its so dumb,  I've played at GT 's and other premier events with  3 colour minimum players ...  in a green army man style army ... you might get a few "Gatekeeper/win at all cost guys " who are going to give you grief when you say I'm house Whatever .... All you need to do is say they aren't  Malinax they are house Malifax .... a close facsimile created by a few loyal stay-behinds who were on deployment during the heresy, your units house are the proud descendants of their line, fighting each battle to the death to expunge their history. To explain the rules they mixed with ... house ... raven ... tanaris ... Whatever when they needed supplies and repairs over the millennia tactics and doctrine merged but their heraldry and pride did not.

[Vel'Cona]

My thoughts on this remain firmly nested in the social contract construct.  When you plonk your models down for a game (in fact, before deployment even occurs), it behooves all players (faction notwithstanding) to be completely clear with their opponent on what unit is to hand.  If it's a 10-man squad of Ultramarines (as seems to be the de facto example) and it's painted red, then it is at the behest of the deploying/owning player to say "This is a 10-man squad of Tactical Marines with Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, a Flamer, a Missile Launcher, and a Power Sword on the Sergeant", especially since they are painted contrasting the standard and therefore cause cognitive dissonance to the opponent's understanding.  It's not a complicated concept in reality, and saying such sentences shouldn't be treated as a burden, but a duty as per total disclosure on the player's part.  If one was to deploy the same red unit of Marines and just say "I'm deploying this unit", it's not the opponent's fault if they don't realize this is an Ultramarines unit: it's the owner's responsibility to make this clear to their opponent.  If you are choosing not to announce the basic facts about your units for whatever reason, you are ignoring social contract and thus making yourself a difficult opponent, but for all the wrong reasons.

 

GW is attempting to govern this by making faction colours a "hard" ruling, rather than a "soft" consideration.  Whether this will be effective or even vaguely acceptable to tournament players is outside the scope of my argument; it's their choice to assign such rules and the benefits and detriments of doing so are clear.  Karhedronuk has the right of it by choosing to contact GW directly to consider their position, and I encourage others to do the same if they disagree with said ruling.

[walter h]

I agree with ,Vel'Cona on this. These are not casual games among friends,these are contest among players who are unknown,with prizes that have cash values.

[sneakybamsen]

I too agree with Vel'Cona, but I also think that it doesn't necessarily mean it will become the general approach just because GW events take this angle on paintjobs. The irony is of course that earlier GW encouraged you to paint what you thought was cool, and play with the rules you wanted.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Honestly, I don't mind it, Ultramarines should be blue, so it's alright.

Ultramarines should be blue, I agree.

 

But just because I have painted my Marines blue, why do I have to field them as Ultramarines?

 

 

You don't, there are tons of canonical blue chapters who aren't Ultramarine successors and you can invent whatever chapter you want.

 

You just can't say half way through a game that your Imperial Fists can fall back and still shoot because you've had Ultramarines written on your army list the whole time.

 

 

I too agree with Vel'Cona, but I also think that it doesn't necessarily mean it will become the general approach just because GW events take this angle on paintjobs. The irony is of course that earlier GW encouraged you to paint what you thought was cool, and play with the rules you wanted.

 

WYSWYWYG used to be very strict. You're still allowed and encouraged to come up with your own colour schemes. Chapter traits are supposed to be for theme not for competitive advantage.

 

I bet if you asked the GT organizers if it was okay for your camouflaged marines with Ultramarine symbols to use Raven Guard rules they'd say yes.

[Charlo]

Thanks for the shout-out mate! Malinax represent!

 

So having actually been to a Warhammer World Event very recently (June!) and fielding my Knights I can tell you this rule is only partially enforced.

 

Yes, mine don't have a load of transfers on but not a single opponent or staff member questioned my Knights playing as loyalists in the slightest.

 

Malinax hasn't had any 40k lore I don't think, so there is your answer - it's just not relevant so it's just a cool looking set of Knights in that case.

 

If you are using something much more recognised, then that's where the issue lies - it's for Photography purposes too so they can go "Oh here's a photo of some Ultramarines against Biel Tan Eldar"

 

In addition, my Ad Mech aren't strictly painted as Mars (I have yellow and blue behind the prominent red) but I ran them as Metallica (much to everyones surprise) and no one batted an eyelid!

 

TL;DR:

You can't field Ultramarines as Blood Angels.

But you can probably field Malinax Knights as Krast or any other house ;)

[synthaside]

AVE Metallica Charlo  , I think its a surprisingly effective forge world ... it helps counter one of our big drawbacks ...  our boys are speedy ... and assault 30 on the Rangers after moving  7-12 inches means we close to rapid fire range ... really very quickly.

[Stray]

Malinax transfer sheets are marked as 'last chance to buy' btw Charlo :/ - might be a good time to grab a few.

 

Several alternate Knight heads are also marked.