Star Wars appropriating W40k stuff

[DukeLeto69]

 

(and yep GW are somewhat guilty of this too, especially in terms of 2000AD).

 

 

Somewhat guilty? 40k is built on the DNA of every other science fiction out there. You're named Duke Leto, and GW owes more to Frank Herbert than Star Wars could possibly even attempt to copy.

Agreed re the DNA point but I would argue that while W40k undoubtedly borrows concepts and ideas from Dune (most obviously the concept of a God Emperor) it is Star Wars that actually borrows/copies/is inspired by (admitted by Lucas). Just read this...

 

http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

[DukeLeto69]

I think the OP’s just given a couple of examples of how transferable elements of pop culture are.

Space Marines take some obvious design cues from SW stormtroopers, Abaddon has a planet killer with some clear points of reference to the Death Star. Lucas said before he made Star Wars that he was drawing heavily from 2001: A Space Odyssey. The Chaos gods have very H.G Wellsian tendencies.

This isn’t limited to sci-fi. just look at the music industry and how often stories pop up about who ripped off someone else (sometimes true, sometimes not). This doesn’t cut just both ways, it cuts in every direction possible.

Thanks for being one of the few on this thread who actually saw that I posed a question about things being borrowed (both ways) and what else there is!

 

BTW I would argue the Chaos Gods are actually Lovecraftian not HG Wellsian.

[Bryan Blaire]

Yeah, it’s pretty common knowledge that sci-fantasy is heavily influenced by not only each other (like Star Wars and 40K), but also pure fantasy, sci-fi, and even real world events, cultures, etc.

 

I also agree that I’ve known about Inquisitors in Star Wars probably longer than I knew about them in 40K, actually. And if you look back, Lucas was trying very hard to get the rights to Flash Gordon and couldn’t, which was where Star Wars actually made its start. And Flash Gordon was inspired by previous creations and real world events as well.

 

Dune was inspired by numerous real world items, figures, writings and religions, as well as some very human fears.

 

40K was inspired by many sci-fi and fantasy elements, real world events of the time (Ghaz’s name for example), etc.

 

It’s all connected in some way, even the real world back to sci-fi/fantasy. After all, radios inspired personal communicators from Star Trek which very likely at some point inspired the design of some flip-phones. And would the iPad have been named that if not for the Star Trek Padd?

 

All connected in some way. There are even the philosophical discussions about how there are even limited amounts of stories when you really boil the details out, etc.

[DukeLeto69]

@BryanBlaire yeah I think there are only actually five types of story or something once you boil it down.

[Enosh]

my impression has always been that 40k stole so much from so many sources that it actually managed to create something fairly unique

[NiceGuyAdi]

BTW I would argue the Chaos Gods are actually Lovecraftian not HG Wellsian.

Oops, that’s what I’d meant!

[Skaorn]

I wouldn't call 40K Inquisitors all that unique. They're pretty much Solomon Kane. I also wouldn't be surprised to find Inquisitors in science fiction either, particularly around the 50s after McCarthy. As someone already pointed out Inquisitors popped up in the SW RPG sourcebook back in 87. One major selling point of them back in the day was that they were official SW canon at the time. Another example Rebels pulled from the RPG was the Interdictor cruisers, which was in the Imperial Guide.

[Master Commander Ajax]

"good writers borrow, great writers steal." -T.S. Eliot.

 

In all fairness, the Inquisitor trope seems to be fairly common in fiction.

[Kinstryfe]

I honestly don't think the original GW knew what 40k would grow to and it was heavily influenced by the tongue in cheek 2000ad which frequently gave little nods to other sci fi franchises and real life characters and events in their Dredd stories

.

You can see this a lot in the early days, I think Pedro Cantor was named after one of the friends of the studio and was Pete Cantor in real life. To me 40k is a Monty Python film that suddenly got taken seriously which is why we have the likes of the tongue in cheek Primarch names which are now taken deadly seriously as if they were historical figures. I still find this all wonderfully hilarious, angry ron and iron man. :D

 

The impression I have had is that they were originally hippy nerds that had an interest in the english nerd/sci fi culture of the late seventies/early eighties and history so just borrowed from everything. I don't think they ever intended it to become the corporate monster it is now.

All of this one million percent.

 

If Star Wars suddenly has generic material harvested from the greatest Jedi of all time which is then implanted into children to make them into different strains of superhuman Jedi, but half of them rebel and try to kill the lead Jedi, then maybe there's a case to be made. But otherwise, you can't steal what's basically a part of the popular culture.

[Xwingt65]

The term Inquisitor and what it stands for isn’t really a 40k invention. And fantasy/scifi properties has borrowed/stolen from each other since it first was a thing, so nothing new or despicable to see here.

[DuskRaider]

I'm sure Tolkien, Heinlein, Lovecraft and Morecock would love a word with Games Workshop if we're going this route... among others. Although GW should get credit for the modern incarnation of Orcs as they're seen in many games and I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't exist without GW. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Yeah, man I agree. They're not doing it to be hurtful, it's actually common practice to barrow ideas and themes, and I'm not saying we grab our pitch forks and siege them or anything. I was merely pointing out that they do it too. Could be that Lucas Arts got inspiration from the Spanish Inquisition...   

Anyone who has Inquisitors in their setting is directly or indirectly inspired by the OG Spanish crew. 

 

More the English propaganda surrounding the Spanish Inquisition (part of the so called 'Black Legend') than the actual agency. There were lots of Inquisitions in early modern Europe and the Spanish one was not especially nasty or notorious outside of how England was constantly at war with their employers. There was a Portuguese Inquisition essentially identical to the Spanish one that you never hear about because the Portuguese were allied to England.

 

Agreed re the DNA point but I would argue that while W40k undoubtedly borrows concepts and ideas from Dune (most obviously the concept of a God Emperor) it is Star Wars that actually borrows/copies/is inspired by (admitted by Lucas). Just read this...

 

 

Concept of a God Emperor goes back to ancient Greek confusion about Egyptian and Persian royalty, only the specific term is a Dune reference.

 

Navigators seem like a more direct Dune rip off despite the visual differences.

 

 

Thanks for being one of the few on this thread who actually saw that I posed a question about things being borrowed (both ways) and what else there is!

 

BTW I would argue the Chaos Gods are actually Lovecraftian not HG Wellsian.

 

 

The defining traits of Lovecraftian gods is that they might just be very weird aliens and they don't care about humanity, that's nothing like the Chaos gods who exist in another dimension, are psychic manifestations of created by living creatures and are actively interested in human affairs.

 

The chaos gods are basically just standard fantasy evil gods.

 

 

@BryanBlaire yeah I think there are only actually five types of story or something once you boil it down.

 

I quite quickly found that if you actually dive down into the writing of anyone who actually seriously makes that claim you quickly find that the popular version is very different to the position actually held by anyone who seriously studies story telling. What basically happened is that Carl Jung theorized that there should only be a handful of types of story and then various followers of Jung elaborated by forcing various folk tales, novels, films to fit Jung's prediction.

 

One of the most popular recent books on the topic is 50% about criticizing various famous books for not fitting into an archetypal narrative category.

 

 

I'm sure Tolkien, Heinlein, Lovecraft and Morecock would love a word with Games Workshop if we're going this route... among others. Although GW should get credit for the modern incarnation of Orcs as they're seen in many games and I'm sure Blizzard wouldn't exist without GW. 

 

D&D de-Tolkienised Orcs first and the old Warhammer 'animosity' rule is pretty accurate to Tolkien's orcs. Having Orcs and Goblins as separate races is a D&D thing.

[Venerable Jazzman]

We're two pages in and nobody's done this yet? Standards are slipping...

 

[sockwithaticket]

 

 

Yeah, man I agree. They're not doing it to be hurtful, it's actually common practice to barrow ideas and themes, and I'm not saying we grab our pitch forks and siege them or anything. I was merely pointing out that they do it too. Could be that Lucas Arts got inspiration from the Spanish Inquisition...   

Anyone who has Inquisitors in their setting is directly or indirectly inspired by the OG Spanish crew. 

 

More the English propaganda surrounding the Spanish Inquisition (part of the so called 'Black Legend') than the actual agency. There were lots of Inquisitions in early modern Europe and the Spanish one was not especially nasty or notorious outside of how England was constantly at war with their employers. There was a Portuguese Inquisition essentially identical to the Spanish one that you never hear about because the Portuguese were allied to England.

 

I don't want to go too OT with a historical debate, but I disagree in some respects. The SI was greater in scale and duration than a handful of medieval equivalents (basically consigned to Southern France and Northern Italy) which pre-dated it and existed in a time of much diminished documentation: we have far more record of what the SI got up to.  Equally the Portuguese were basically the only non-Spanish version, while also being far less significant a player in Northern/Western European affairs, thus Spain holds the limelight as the originator, no doubt helped along the way by Protestant propaganda (which is how I see it rather than British and Dutch) during the Reformation, Counter-Reformation and Renaissance as Spain, being the de facto driving force of the HRE and European Catholicism for a large portion of that period, rather than Portugal was their existential threat and the Inquisition were a good bogey-man.

 

TL:DR? Being the originators in the early modern period has as much to do with the primacy of their legacy in wider consciousness as anything else.

 

It must be said, though, as Venerable Jazzman has illustrated, a certain comedy troupe have probably done a great deal in the Anglo-Sphere at least to perpetuate one particular nationality being synonymous with the word Inquisition.

 

I think it's also fair to say that the type of people who invented Sci-Fi properties like Star Wars and GW probably engaged quite readily with Monty Python.

 

[Battybattybats]

I just think that after taking legal action against Ulysses 31 over borrowing bits of star wars musical elements, they were being hypocritical with Rebels taking the Ulysses 31 blaster/laser-sword combi-weapon.

[bluntblade]

So essentially, if GW were to grab the current Star Wars IP high-ups and apply the soft cushions, it would probably end like this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/shingekinokyojin/images/a/as heck/Confess.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160501072412

[Brother Tyler]

It has been solidly established that the premise of this discussion is incorrect.