b1soul Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Found some very interesting stuff in these [questionable?] articles 1d4chan [please excuse the extremely juvenile tone of the article] Men of Iron They were in Pax Imperialis. "It is only when they go wrong that machines remind you how powerful they are." – Clive James The Men of Iron, or Iron Men, were sentient, sapient robot servants created by humanity during the Dark Age of Technology. Men of Stone and Gold were also involved somehow (see below). Note that sapient and sentient is not the same as being intelligent in the way a human or other such life is. It merely means the ability to form complex thoughts and make rational judgements. Unfortunately, the Iron Men were capable of learning and self-improvement. Before long, they became smart enough to realize that the squishy meatbags were dependent on them, which insulted them and led to rebellion against their creators. They were eventually put down, but the war with them, along with the other dangers of the galaxy at the same time, was enough to send humanity into the Age of Strife. Few records remain of this time in history, so the form that these Men of Iron took is not known. Their rebellion left such a huge impression on the nascent Adeptus Mechanicus, so that even to this day, they (at least officially) strictly forbid the creation of "abominable intelligences" and shun even the idea of self-improving machines, preferring to use relatively tame servitors and Machine Spirits instead. Though, this was really just because the Emperor banned AI upon claiming Mars for the Imperium, much to the original Mechanicus's frustration. Some Men of Iron still survive to this day, locked up in ancient pre-Imperial technology archives. Because tech-priests can't keep their noses out of ancient technology, these archives are often inadvertently activated. The Tanith First and Only also discovered an STC factory that had been corrupted by Chaos to produce Men of Iron, and they destroyed it immediately thereafter. The STCs producing Men of Iron may also shed some light on a deeper reason behind their betrayal. It is entirely possible that either the Men of Iron were corrupted by Chaos or the factories producing them were corrupted, maybe even both. Other Dark Age AIs were known to have been corrupted by Chaos, such as the Castigator Titan. The Age of Strife involved a lot of different kinds of warp-induced shenanigans anyway. Any evidence of this, beyond the discovery by the Tanith, would likely have been lost during the daemonic invasions that followed during the Age of Strife. Generally speaking, it isn't unreasonable to assume that either Chaos or the Void Dragon is responsible for the AI rebellion. One possible sighting of the Men of Iron (or at least something very much like them) is in Gods of Mars. A rogue tech-priest had managed to enslave a group of highly sophisticated hunter killer machines that seemed to possess genuine artificial intelligence and dated back to before the Great Crusade. Less than half a dozen were capable of taking on far larger numbers of foes, including Skitarii, Cadian Guardsmen, Black Templars (including an Emperor's Champion), Howling Banshees, Eldar Guardians and a Farseer. Somehow one of them managed to survive the encounter and is currently on its way to Mars... The Journal of Keeper Cripias The most extensive account of the Men of Iron is a piece of lore from the third edition rulebook, a journal entry by one "Keeper Cripias", of the great Library Sanctus on Terra. In it, Men of Gold (the "First Men") and Men of Stone (the "Second Men") are also mentioned, with the Gold Men dying out during the Dark Age of Technology and the Stone Men creating the Men of Iron sometime thereafter. It is not clear if either of these "Men" are supposed to be humanity itself, or if they are both subsets of humanity. They are also called the "Golden Race" , the "Stone Race" and the "Iron Race", but there is also a mention of the "human race". Interestingly, he writes that, at one time, there was no "Race of Man" at all, "just warring factions", so it is possible that he used the adjective "race" in a rather different sense than we normally do. The word "race" as it is used in games is consistently incorrect. Compared to the Imperium at its height, real-life 20th century society could've looked stone age. Anyway, “gold,” “stone,” and “iron” were presumably being used metaphorically (as in “Golden Age,” “Silver Age,” etc.), and not to refer to the literal materials these “races” were made from. It may be that each one refers to the type of work the AI/robots were being used for, e.g., Men of Gold were used for academic and research purposes, Men of Stone were used for infrastructure and service functions, and Men of Iron were for military purposes (possibly explaining why they were aggressive enough to initiate genocide). Alternately, it’s possible that it refers to their rarity or quality of production, e.g., Men of Gold were intricate and expensive creations, Men of Stone still required skilled and intensive work, but Men of Iron were cheaply (or shoddily) mass produced (meaning that they would have been everywhere, and perhaps more prone to malfunction). Or, conversely, at least two of the "races of men" actually may have been human, or human-like: the text could be interpreted as saying that the Golden Men were Perpetuals/The Emperor (or even the Old Ones), who shepherded the development of the Stone Men (normal humans), who then created robots (the Iron Men). Bear in mind, though, that the Library Sanctus has been subject to over ten thousand years of revision, deletion and misfiling, not to mention how much of it was passed on orally for absurd amounts of time before finally being written down. So who knows if any of this information is true; it certainly hasn't been mentioned anywhere since, though the Horus Heresy novels may shed some light on the matter. Hopefully. Some of the things that made the Men of Iron hardcore The Horus Heresy audio drama Perpetual has them show up again at their height, because of Warp-based time travel. According to Ollanius Pius, who was there to see them for himself, they had serpentine "sun snuffer" space ships the size of Saturn's rings that could kill suns- imagine the eternal dragon from Dragonball but robotic and instead of granting wishes causes mass genocide. Now remember that the only other faction to do this is the Necrons and they only used it in extremely desperate situation as it disrupted the flow of the universe, that's right the Necrons have better morality when it came to unleashing extremely powerful Sun killing weapons. How :cussing unhinged were these mother:cussers!? The worse part is that humans also used these things, so nobody is in the right. They consumed Raw data, now at first this may seem mundane I mean they're machines until you realize that they can absorb the raw data of space itself making the essentially what would happen if H.P Lovecraft instead of James Cameron wrote the movie The Terminator. This also matches the description of the machines found in Gods of Mars, as well as oblique descriptions of their ships. They also had omniphage swarms that stripped people down to their bones, and other war machines that could devour entire cities and :cuss continents into space. By the end of their war, they had gone completely berserk and even started attacking each other. Basically, we may love to mock the Imperium for having forgotten so much from the Dark Age of Technology, but the Men of Iron are probably the biggest evidence that some of that :cuss really is better off forgotten and left the :cuss alone. Even the Tau would be left with a bad case of technophobia if they ever had to deal with the Men of Iron. On the flip side, with dark age technology the Imperium was able to defeat these freaky beasts, and thus was still deadlier than the men of iron even after getting betrayed by them. One can only imagine what the state of the Imperium would be like if humanity hadn't relied on the Men of Iron, or hadn't made them smart enough to stage a rebellion. Or knew enough about the warp to prevent such a thing. Reddit New details on Men of Gold/Iron/Stone u/TheStradivarius So, we've got some new info regarding those creatures. The canonicity is dubious because its source is Laurie Golding's post on The First Expedition forums. Anyway, here's the quote " Interesting note - from Alan Merrett's lips, the Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race, with selective breeding kind of like in 'Dune'. The Iron Men were, obviously, machines. The stone in Stone Men refers to silicon, as in they are organic intelligence, created artificially. I like to think of them like the Thirteenth Tribe from 'Battlestar Galactica', the organic cylons who left Kobol and began their own civilisation." Also this: "Interesting trivia, never before mentioned anywhere else (to my knowledge): 'The Beast Arises' originally dealt with the Imperium's use of the outlawed Iron Men as a last-ditch attempt to prevent the ork invasion from reaching Terra. It was changed because there are no miniatures of them." TheStradivariusAdeptus Terra • 1y "And so it was that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind, yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow. To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilisation on the anarchy of Nature. In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen to Sone Men’s power, but are also harnessed by those of th Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperament and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifices and mechanisms. In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to expand their dominion. The Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. This the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail." Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 3rd Edition. ariktaranis • 1y Very interesting comments from Alan Merrett. I accept that the Golden Men were genetically engineered humans that created the Stone Men, who in turn created the Men of Iron. What follows, ie, concerning silicon and organic intelligence is so murky as to be subject to interpretation. We know that mankind's knowledge of biotechnology was very high, but I believe that there are 2 examples of Stone men in the canon, which I will prove soon. Kron is the best example of what a stone man is capable in the story "Ancient history", but it can be proven that the humanoid figure in the Story "Dark Adeptus" was also a stone man. The novel "Death of Integrity fleshes out the canon of the Stone men and I believe the captain of the STC ship is a Golden Man, who the STC describes as his 'bondmate'. I will soon prove all this, with references to the stories, but I will say that there are at least 10 references to Stone Men and Men of Iron (or Men of Steel) as Kron calls them that combined, paint a complete picture of what the STCs were and how they are related to the Men of Stone. Men of Iron also seem to make a visual appearnace in Pax Imperialis, Warhammer Monthly #14 https://1d4chan.org/images/7/75/Iron_Men_40k.jpg https://1d4chan.org/images/7/75/Menofiron.JPG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Very interesting and complicated. I like how it is all wrapped up in myth and half truths and contradiction (it was circa 20,000 years before the W40k "present" right? So for me I am thinking Perpetuals are Golden Men, Blade Runner type Replicants are Stone Men and Terminator type robots are Iron Men? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Silica may not mean replicants. The Wolves' exemplary battle features an AI which is silicate, but by no means humanoid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Shift Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Good work. I'm not sure I agree about the conclusions re. Kron being a stone man but it's been a very long time since I read the story. I know those are opinions you've found online. The dark age and golden age are kept deliberately vague but it's nice to see a compilation of hints. My favourite one is that they considered using them in the beast arises series. That is a real shame that they went the other way. A man of iron resurrection heresy would be an awesome focus for a novel series imo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Red Shift, if memory serves, didn't they switch out the robots plot (7th EdAd Mech/Kastellans were in Dev at the time?) in favour of the Sisters of Silence plot? (MUCH more interesting, IMO, even though I do love the robots cropping up in 40k stories! Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah does cracking stuff with them.) Regarding the whole progression of Stone/Iron/Golden humanity, there's a few bits that, at best, have been vaguely alluded to but, being contemporaneous to the Dark Age (etc), I think could be woven in to make the lore more interesting still. 1- Pariahs & Perpetuals (both candidates for mapping onto the Sensei of olde timey [wimey stuff] lore). 2- Squats, Ogryns (specifically the mysterious Grey Ogryns mentioned in the appendices), Ratlings (of interest that Orn's World was the first engagement of the 12th Black Crusade/The Gothic wWar) etc. 3- Aeldari, Orks & Demiurg of the day. What was the pre-Great Crusade history of Ullanor? How did the elder species interact with upstart, and accomplished, humanity. 4- Necron Triarchs - they'd have been up & about at the time, and with a vested interest in seeing how things unfolded. 5- The Guardians of the Celestial Orrery - again, they would have been awake, right? 6- The Machine Cult of Mars. 'In his house at Noctis labyrinthus, dead Mag'ladroth waits dreaming.' 7- Navis Nobilitae 8- The Cognitae (who I'd contest map onto the Illuminati of old, but alongside certain Thorians & Horusians, not to mention the Ordo Hydra, and that other sect of secretive hydra obsessives, see also Genestealer Cults) 9- Blackstone sites, excavations etc, though I've not actually delved into much/any of the Forgebane lore save what was trumpeted at the time. As for related epochs, there's always the Moirae schism & the Keys of Hel (and Medusa itself, more generally) to explore too! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 Yeah...I was deeply disappointed we didn't get Iron Men in TBA, but GW/BL is all about selling models Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Personally I prefer that the Golden/Stone/Iron Men are as remote from W40K as Neanderthals are from us and only glimpsed through fossilised remains and cave paintings...almost a myth. I like the idea that AI is considered to actually be abominable intelligence that is so far removed from the morality* of W40k folks as to be considered almost a bad joke, like "no way anyone would really have done that, it is just stories to scare kids" type thing. *not the best word to use in the context of The Imperium I know Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I like to think that the Custodes are essentially, in the way they are genetically modified/re-arranged, the same as the golden men or at least very similar and developed from their gene engineering by the emperor. I presume the Golden Men would have been very similar in physical and mental capability to the Custodes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 The Golden Men were a genetically engineered master race with selective breeding (like in Dune) The Iron Men were machines. The Stone Men were organic intelligence (silicon) created artificially. Similar to organic Cylons. They created the Iron Men and conquered the stars for Humanity. The Stone Men defeat the Iron Men in a final act of self preservation. I quite like the way the Stone Men saved humanity in a final act of self preservation. I was very surprised when Laurie revealed that to us on the forum. Also interesting that it says The Emperor was “joined by the golden men” which means he came before them but we know that Ollanius is older than the Emperor so what that means is anyone’s guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Yeah...I was deeply disappointed we didn't get Iron Men in TBA, but GW/BL is all about selling modelsThat line of thinking does not follow. Or in Iron Man terminology: ERROR ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE. The idea, as I'd heard it, was that the Iron Men was considered as a device to tie into the Ad Mech and specific the Kastella s (to sell models, one may imagine) and so be uncovered, and wrangled, and used as a device to explore "are they Iron (whatever) men from the Dark Age?" drawing on old lore *and* being able to fleece the models that were in dev at the time. It looks like the decision between Sisters & Kastellans (and let's not overlook: Deathwatch) were all aligned with selling models, but hardly motivated *only* by selling models. (Or was it coincidental that I enjoyed the books?) More to the point, you use the incorrect tense. GW/BL of, what 2012-2015? was arguably "all about selling models" - before then, and since then, however, that does not seem to be true in the slightest. E.g. which models are the Horusian Wars selling? THE Magos? Warmaster? Voice of Mars? Spears of the Emperor? Sons of the Hydra? And, despite all that: even if they were only motivated about selling models. So what, if the books remain good? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 It seems crazy that there are still Iron Men locked away in vaults (presumably on Mars) given the danger they pose. But then that kind of technology shouldn’t be discarded. It took millennia to design and build them. Also I seem to remember that the Eldar also used robots to fight their wars. Strange that both Eldar and Humanity went down the robot route. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5136849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 3, 2018 Author Share Posted August 3, 2018 @ Xisor Good points...then the decision was probably "the tie-in SoS sales boost would be greater" @RobbieNW "I like to think that the Custodes are essentially, in the way they are genetically modified/re-arranged, the same as the golden men or at least very similar and developed from their gene engineering by the emperor. I presume the Golden Men would have been very similar in physical and mental capability to the Custodes." Or Custodes recruits are Golden Men descendants...cuz the Golden Men sound like the products of a Bene Gesserit-like breeding program Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 don't mind the perpetuals as golden men link Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 I don’t see how the Emperor could be joined by the golden race but it’s said they were a genetically engineered master race. The two statements seem slightly incompatible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Golden Men took in the New Man and ascended it to be The Emperor? That's how they coexist. Or the Emperor is a Golden Man. It'd easily allow for the Custodes to be more than "merely" companions. Minders, making sure He doesn't do anything that gives the game away. ---- "Thank goodness," said the Captain-General. "Blowing up the Primarch project seems to have worked, and He seems to have grown bored of the idea of doing it all again." "Yes, Captain-General. I'm sure that's the last we'll hear of this 'Primarchs' foolishness." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Although He has a golden glow. He isn’t a golden man. He was around before the golden men. All these things only mean the shaman stuff is still very likely. That mass suicide could have been done in the pre history of mankind and then the golden men turn up. I doubt the Custodians are golden men. I mean they are very unique in their creation. They are lean of limb and strong of mind. Perhaps they are just the Emperors vision for what humanity should eventually be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 never much of a fan of the shaman stuff. it just struck me as cheesey and underwhelming Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 They probably won’t do an origin story for Him anyway. It would be interesting to find out why an immortal of such vast psychic power just popped out of no where in pre history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5137962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 i think they should float a few theories on that point, but i’m happy to never get a definitive answer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5138299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 6, 2018 Author Share Posted August 6, 2018 Theories and limited, but meaningful, reveals are the spice of BL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349302-available-info-about-men-of-ironstonegold/#findComment-5139070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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