IG Super-Heavy Detachments

[librisrouge]

So, playing knights but missing my IG has me thinking about the potential for IG super-heavy detachments lately. I recently took my knights to BAO and saw a LOT of lists that were basically 3-4 knights supported by 1-2 battalions of, usually, IG. They take the battalions for objective campers, CP batteries, and screens. So...why can't I do the same with pure IG?

 

My thoughts on advantages and disadvantages:

 

Knights:

* Toughness - While both are T8 (generally), knights have ion shields and these can generally be boosted to +4 or +3 with little work. That can make a knight fairly tough to put down. This is possibly their biggest selling point in this discussion.

* Speed - Knights have the same speed (with the exception of Cerastus and Armiger chassis) but many, many bonuses to advancing. Plus, Full Tilt lets them advance and charge. They're just better at closing the distance, assuming they want to. This also, with the right house bonus, lets them setup their shots nicely.

* Melee - No knight is getting bested in melee by a baneblade unless the baneblade set the fight up very well, Crush Them! be damned.

 

Tanks:

* Firepower - The tanks main selling point. Unless your a castellan or valiant (and thus many more points), the tank will outgun the knight by a good margin.

* Anti-Infantry Guns - Most baneblade chassis tanks will have 3 or 5 twin heavy bolters or heavy flamers. That means most infantry units don't want to be caught in the open at all. We can shoot numerically superior targets off the table that even knight must use melee to deal with.

* Health - We've got more wounds, albeit only a few, but can also be healed by a tech priest better (d3 vs. 1 wound.)

* Psychic Powers - No psychic knights but we can use Nightshroud and Psychic Barrier to help each other out, if you're into witchcraft.

 

Neutral:

* Numbers - We're probably only dropping 3 SHs. They're too expensive to take more. However, if the knight is playing a similar list, they're probably only fielding 4 knights at most, 3 if they took a dominus chassis. The armiger helps them but those're just fast dreadnoughts at the end of the day.

* Bonuses - Regiment vs. House. Their's have more varied bonuses, imo, but ours tend to help us to do what we want to do, shoot things. We've got only a few strategems to help here, and many of them regimentally locked, but a few characters to help as well (Yarrick, Harker, Tech-Priests, Primaris, anybody with Relic of Lost Cadia.) Don't underestimate Defensive Gunners if they charge you. Saw a guy lose a full health Castigator charging a shadowsword that way.

 

Does anybody have any experience with using IG SHDs? Against knights or otherwise.

[Colonel Cross]

It'll probably turn into whoever goes first.  

[Mileposter]

If you know that going in, though - that can be enough. I mean, most footage we have of WW2 Tank V Tank (both real and fictional) is pretty much "Who can get an aimed shot off first", making it pretty thematic. If you have a well set up board, maneuvering around each other to try and get that shot can be worth the game in and of itself.

 

So I don't exactly think it's such a bad thing - just a thing to be prepared for.

[librisrouge]

It'll probably turn into whoever goes first.  

See, I honestly don't agree with this. Knights, outside of the Castellan and Porphyrion, don't have enough firepower to just take out a baneblade. They need multiple turns of shooting or to get into melee (and expose themselves to a defensive gunners overwatch.) Even the formerly mentioned two can only deal with one reliably and a knight list will typically only have one of those guys. The tanks, however, can fairly reliably render a knight either dead or damned near it. Also, the tank list will certainly have some infantry or conscripts whose sole job in life is to die keeping the knight from Full Tilting itself into melee round 1.

 

tl;dr I'm fairly sure that the tanks get 1-2 turns of at least two tanks firing without major opposition. That might be enough to win reliably.

 

I think the problem with this list is less knights, but other lists.

[Colonel Cross]

You bring up some valid points.  If a knight list is shooty, it's going to lose.  The problem comes out with the knights using warlord traits, relics, and houses.  Depending on the deployment setup, a balanced knight list is going to be capable of a potential turn 1 charge.

 

Those knights have invulnerable saves against our shooting.  I'm not worried about knights with the Avenger Gatling Cannon and a rapid fire battle cannon, I'm worried about the CC knights and the ability for them to have 4++ saves on their way in.

 

A lot of this depends on the deployment and terrain. 

 

But if I were to create a super heavy list which could try to take out regular lists AND knights, I would definitely include 2 psykers, at least 1 tech priest, and maybe even a searchlight or 2 kept way in the back for that sweet sweet +1 to hit since a superheavy utilizing that can probably get away with the absurd points cost of the searchlight. 

 

I did use my superheavy tank list recently and demolished the knights but I had first turn and my Shadowsword nuked a knight on it's own and my combined firepower from my Macharius Vulcan and Baneblade made another one irrelevant.  

[librisrouge]

I love that kind of empirical evidence. Your choice of three tanks sounds neat. I love the marcharius tanks as budget baneblades. They feel like they're finally kind of where they're supposed to be but I don't own one so I can't be sure of that.

 

I hadn't considered spotlights. I'll have to look into them and see if I can convert one.

 

I think a 3 SH tank list absolutely needs at least one shadowsword. I can nuke a knight fairly reliably, as long as they don't get it up to +3, so it can go after the gallant or valiat that is breathing down your throat that'll be sitting with a +5 invul because they're saving Rotate Ion Shields for the castellan at the back.

 

You're absolutely right about the two psykers being needed. Psychic Barrier and, especially, Nightshroud are absolutely some of our best ways of enhancing those beasts. I'm not 100% sold on the tech-priest but he's definitely worth giving serious thoughts to you. Harker is a must if you're Catachan and I think Yarrick is worth considering for the rest of the regiments. I'd love to see a shadowsword from Vostroya fire at something Titanic with Yarrick nearby :)

[Colonel Cross]

So funny enough, I was using Vostroyan traits and had Yarrick in that game ... 

 

But I think Cadians may be better? OLFoF + innate reroll 1s may be worth it.  I usually play Catachans so I know the strength of rerolling 1 die per random weapon + Harker. But with the size of these superheavies, he won't be able to buff them all. 

 

And if I finish magnetizing my baneblade, I'd probably try a list with 2 Shadowsords and a Macharius Vulcan. 

[sairence]

Pretty sure the searchlights were FAQd and only work on infantry now.

[Feral_80]

Indeed, searchlights only work on infantry (and on other searchlights). They are utterly useless now.

 

So, no tricks on tanks with those. Anyway, you won't need it.

 

A Shadowsword is a hard counter to any Codex Knight, unless the Knight player is really really luck (or, goes first and again he is rather lucky with a Castellan). 

[Colonel Cross]

Oh yes I totally forgot about that in the FAQ. Back to the drawing board