HH 53: Titan Death by Guy Haley

[Charlo]

Not quite finished yet, but I did just get through the chapter where Sanguinius enters the battle...

 

In tags for those who don't want spoilers but...

 

Hidden Content

HOLY  ! That was amazing! The psycich projection of him turning giant, the landing on the Imperator and dismantling it from the inside, melting myrmidons with the spear... "I DO NOT DIE THIS DAY!"

 

Goosebumps.

[Manchu warlord]

Quite decent and well written, as is most of Haley's work.  The titan-centric element was a nice and interesting experiment that I found to be positive, as well as coming up with a nice history for the Imperial Hunters.  However, I find that many of the scenes of the titan crews (both Solaria's and Vulpa's) when they are not in action are quite boring and could very much be skipped, and instead write about Imperial guard stuff on other parts of other planets, to provide further detail for the readers the scale of the battle.

The Sanguinius scene was very exciting and nicely done, and - not surprisingly - probably the best part of the novel imo. 

 

After reading it now, I feel that the events of Wolfsbane should've been tied to the battle of Beta-Garmon.  I'm not going express how I think the battle of Trisolian could be woven into the Beta-Garmon battle, but just seeing how Horus was wounded unto the brink of death twice, at the same spot, is just lame.  Wolfsbane and Titandeath could've been paired novels, Russ could've been at Beta-Garmon alongside the Angel and the Khagan, in which it was here (and not the battle of Trisolian) that he charged at Horus and wounded him, thus setting the stage for Slaves to Darkness.  And it could be on some space station in the Garmon system that magos Cawl was doing his work.  

[bluntblade]

Agreed there.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Titandeath is the first HH book I'm giving up on.

 

After 3 weeks of trying to read the novel, I find myself looking for other things to do instead.

 

On the plus side, I now have cleaned my gaming room and did like 5 loads of laundry. 

[aa.logan]

My focus slipped a few times listening to this, but I think that is more a reflection on my trying to cram it in into too short a time period to catch up in order to read the Solar War rather than a lack of enjoyment on my part; I certainly am looking forward to rereading the paperback and paying more attention to it.

 

Sex, sexuality and sexual relationships are so rarely present in BL fiction. I was more than pleasantly surprised to see these present in this book and presented in such a matter-of-fact way. The relationship between rival princeps being muddied and influenced by the pregnancy both between Legios and within them added a nicely human element to a typically inhuman faction. That the hunting Legion skews lesbian was presented in such an offhand and non-exploitative fashion cheered me immensely. My count of canonical lesbians in 40k (2 CainValhallans, 1 Beast Arises PDF trooper, 2 rememberancers, a bunch of Escher gangers and most of a Titan Legion so far for those, like me, keeping count) has rocketed, roll on the next Mike Brooks novel so that the gays can start to catch up...

 

Again, this maybe coloured by the fact I listened to the audio and the way the text was performed, but I read Sanguinius’ mantra as devil-may-care manic defiance; the Primarchs are generally supremely confident in their martial abilities, and the confidence boost Sanguinius must have received from his visions tipped him over the edge- his reckless decapitation strike wasn’t as a result of him moping and acting in a self-pitying fashion, it was him giving Horus and the traitor legions at large a big F-U.

[bluntblade]

Also one Terran-Prosperine couple in ATS.

[carlisimo]

I just read it, and I loved it. I thought it was on par with his early books (Baneblade and Shadowsword), which I enjoyed more than his other Horus Heresy works. He made the campaign easy enough to follow, the action and pacing were strong, the peaceful scenes added to the story… no major complaints.

 

If we get into minor complaints, my biggest would be that Haley’s good guys (or gals) tend to be a little too good (too virtuous). It sticks out given the nature of the Imperium, even the loyalists. And I can see some segments, the ones about family relationships, not working for a lot of readers. I liked them.

 

It was Sanguinius’s best portrayal since Fear to Tread. He’s still noticeably preoccupied and depressed, but it isn’t handled as heavy-handedly as in other recent novels. I did think it was a little unreasonable the way he wasn’t able to respond to changes in the strategic situation.

 

But those are quibbles. It was great. I’m not sure I noticed that it had been written quickly.

[Manchu warlord]

I think if Haley tackled this book in the same/or similar manner as C Z Dunn's Pandorax, it would be a lot better, allowing for much broader, all-encompassing view of the whole battle. But that way, he would not be able to focus 80% of the books on titans, as was the purpose of this novel

[Izlude]

I just finished this book last night. I will probably echo what may have said already but I'll highlight some of the items that stuck out for me. In general, I thought this was a very strong book, especially given the circumstance that this book may not have existed at all after reading the afterword. In general, I love big ships (Battlefleet Gothic videogame) and titans as a concept (The Adeptus Titanicus models are so sweet) but actually don't like reading about them as much, it tends to be bland where I prefer the human interaction and primarch stuff much more.

 

For this book, I really liked how Haley wasn't heavy handed with titan battles ad nauseam. It was very much like Tallarn where French could have made it more about tank battles but rather focused more on a few POVs in the wider scope of things which I enjoyed as well.

 

-Solaria and Vulpa: I read the Titandeath supplement first which had some nice basic descriptions of the involved Legio and the system. I think the strength of the book was the background on Solaria and to some extent Vulpa. I have to admit the book started off slowly as he was building the Solaria background up but I ended up enjoying it as the book progressed. The interaction with the lead characters were well done and the relationship with Vulpa was also believable and and one of the strengths of this book. In an obvious male-dominated universe with a sprinkling of strong female characters I thought Haley's handling of this was done very very well. The legio came off as strong, proud but also intelligent. I thought the end was very touching.

 

-Primarch stuff: There is very little in the book but the small bits were well done. Obviously alot of people gush over Sangy whereas I am sort of indifferent to his character and legion. The "I will not die today" was sort of overdone but it probably fits in with his brooding personality. I also admit, while not toted as a tactician like the Lion or Guilliman, Sangy seemed to be outplayed by Horus like a fiddle. It just seems Sangy should have somewhat suspected the battle at Nycron to be more of a feint. Sangy even admits he was outplayed by Horus as well. Although maybe someone can better explain why Horus's true target was that important? It just seems that they had that system more or less so I wasn't clear why taking this target out was critical once they moved on to Terra?

 

Anyways I really enjoyed the book! I do agree if there was better planning, it could have tied in with Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness much better and made each book that much stronger (although to be fair I enjoyed all those books as well). 

 

Is this a 10/10? To me that would be The First Heretic, KNF, and Betrayer but I will say maybe 7/l10 and a damn good read and would zero problems recommending this to anyone in the series. 

[DukeLeto69]

Please could someone remind me of the chronological order for Wolfsbane, Slaves to Darkness and Titandeath (rather than published order).

[Tymell]

Please could someone remind me of the chronological order for Wolfsbane, Slaves to Darkness and Titandeath (rather than published order).

 

Wolfsbane > Titandeath > Slaves to Darkness

[DukeLeto69]

@Tymell thanks

[m0nolith]

Here's what this book thought me: Don't go on these forums before finishing the book myself. They give you the wrong idea of what actually happens.

 

On Sanguinius;

Because I went and read a few posts in this thread a few months ago, I got the impression that what happened in Ruinstorm didn't affect Sanguinius at all, implying that there was almost no coordination between the writer of Ruinstorm and the writer of Titandeath.

That could not be further from the truth.

 

Not only was what happened to Sanguinius addressed in the book, but it heavily impacted Sanguinius' personality and his drive.

This, hands down, is the best impression of Sanguinius I have come across in the Heresy up to this point. 

 

The book itself: Excellent

A thoroughly excellent (audio)book!

[Indefragable]

Finished the audiobook of this.

 

Overall: 7.8/10

 

And I'm a harsh grader.

 

I, too, have to confess that I went into it with a bit of a negative impression based on early reviews and scuttlebutt. But overall, I was actually impressed.

 

It suffers from Prospero Burns syndrome in that what it is billed as does not quite pan out* (more on that below), but, like PB, what you are left with is a level of depth and intrigue that stands on its own and carries its weight.

 

The good:

-I don't give a rat's :cuss about Titans or their crews, yet I was captivated by the depiction of the Legion Solaria. It was so fully formed and fleshed out and just felt real. From the simple yet defining act that founded them up to their reputation and actions during the course of the Beta Gammon campaign.

-Sanguinius has some badass moments. And, based on feedback on this very thread, I think the audio format greatly helped in this department as the tone really conveyed the meaning behind the words.

-we see non-Sanguinius Blood Angels ( SHOCK!) actually doing something interesting on their own, if only for a few pages.

-there's a....how should we say...."bedroom"....scene that is one of the first I recall encountering in BL material. And it is masterfully done, feels completely organic to the wider story, and makes sense. In fact, it is an important plot point.

In hindsight, it's a natural progression for Titan Princeps to duel in their machines, then in courtroom barbs and postering, and then with their physical forms in a more intimate setting as well. Now that's good writing.

 

The bad:

-we are told (outside the narrative itself) that Beta Gammon is this massive conflict, perhaps even bigger than the Siege itself in terms of space and scale and # of forces committed, yet we are constantly told that rather than shown that. This is a case where, in my opinion, more time in the strategium with hololiths and projections and Orders of Battle would have enhanced the story. I think that's what the inclusion of the Primarchs was meant to do, but it did not really convey that.

-The Khan once again is there to be all caged-bird-y and then disappear. I wonder if anyone beyond Chris Wraight can actually write him (other authors, please prove me wrong)

-this is a bit more of a personal gripe, but the Chaos-y stuff felt a bit ham-fisted. It makes sense in the scope of the story, but I think a more subtler influence would have been a bit more poignant. Oh well, it's 40k.

 

The other:

-this is a definitive Titan novel. The close-in focus on a few select characters achieves that wonderfully. It is not the definitive penultimative battle novel.

-once again for the HH series (not necessarily just Guy Haley) it feels like the Primarch bits were tacked on. It's Titans and than the Primarchs at a random point in the story and they don't really interact, and that's about it.

-The Horus part seemed out of place

 

Summary:

Great read, all the more so since the subject matter that is actually covered had 0 interest to me. That's sayin' something about it.

Does not quite set-up Slaves to Darkness the way I hoped it would and is not going to really enlighten anyone as to what to expect in the Siege, but a decent read overall.

 

 

*the novel is called Titandeath. It is billed as being THE BIGGEST-EST Titan battle EVAH!!!111!!  Yet the intimate focus on a few legions actually actively detracts from that, in my opinion. There is literally a chapter where it's like "oh yea, here's everything happening its a big battle BOOM!" and that's it in terms of the scale and focus. Again, the intimate views are well done and a good experience, just not what you expect going into it.

 

Bit of an unfair perspective to add given that hindsight is always 20/20, but listening to the Solar War now, the perspective is quite different. The SW gives you a sense of the "board" that is being fought over, the major components to each, and why each is important. Added on top of that is the strategies both sides are using to own pieces of that board....all while still having over-the-shoulder views  and close-ups of characters we are following.

 

Compared to what we have on Beta Gammon--arguably an even grander fight--and it's "like, it was really big guys. Like, really really big."

 

Night and day.

[Marshal Rohr]

Finished the audiobook of this.

 

Overall: 7.8/10

 

And I'm a harsh grader.

 

I, too, have to confess that I went into it with a bit of a negative impression based on early reviews and scuttlebutt. But overall, I was actually impressed.

 

It suffers from Prospero Burns syndrome in that what it is billed as does not quite pan out* (more on that below), but, like PB, what you are left with is a level of depth and intrigue that stands on its own and carries its weight.

 

The good:

-I don't give a rat's :cuss about Titans or their crews, yet I was captivated by the depiction of the Legion Solaria. It was so fully formed and fleshed out and just felt real. From the simple yet defining act that founded them up to their reputation and actions during the course of the Beta Gammon campaign.

-Sanguinius has some badass moments. And, based on feedback on this very thread, I think the audio format greatly helped in this department as the tone really conveyed the meaning behind the words.

-we see non-Sanguinius Blood Angels ( SHOCK!) actually doing something interesting on their own, if only for a few pages.

-there's a....how should we say...."bedroom"....scene that is one of the first I recall encountering in BL material. And it is masterfully done, feels completely organic to the wider story, and makes sense. In fact, it is an important plot point.

In hindsight, it's a natural progression for Titan Princeps to duel in their machines, then in courtroom barbs and postering, and then with their physical forms in a more intimate setting as well. Now that's good writing.

 

The bad:

-we are told (outside the narrative itself) that Beta Gammon is this massive conflict, perhaps even bigger than the Siege itself in terms of space and scale and # of forces committed, yet we are constantly told that rather than shown that. This is a case where, in my opinion, more time in the strategium with hololiths and projections and Orders of Battle would have enhanced the story. I think that's what the inclusion of the Primarchs was meant to do, but it did not really convey that.

-The Khan once again is there to be all caged-bird-y and then disappear. I wonder if anyone beyond Chris Wraight can actually write him (other authors, please prove me wrong)

-this is a bit more of a personal gripe, but the Chaos-y stuff felt a bit ham-fisted. It makes sense in the scope of the story, but I think a more subtler influence would have been a bit more poignant. Oh well, it's 40k.

 

The other:

-this is a definitive Titan novel. The close-in focus on a few select characters achieves that wonderfully. It is not the definitive penultimative battle novel.

-once again for the HH series (not necessarily just Guy Haley) it feels like the Primarch bits were tacked on. It's Titans and than the Primarchs at a random point in the story and they don't really interact, and that's about it.

-The Horus part seemed out of place

 

Summary:

Great read, all the more so since the subject matter that is actually covered had 0 interest to me. That's sayin' something about it.

Does not quite set-up Slaves to Darkness the way I hoped it would and is not going to really enlighten anyone as to what to expect in the Siege, but a decent read overall.

 

 

*the novel is called Titandeath. It is billed as being THE BIGGEST-EST Titan battle EVAH!!!111!! Yet the intimate focus on a few legions actually actively detracts from that, in my opinion. There is literally a chapter where it's like "oh yea, here's everything happening its a big battle BOOM!" and that's it in terms of the scale and focus. Again, the intimate views are well done and a good experience, just not what you expect going into it.

 

Bit of an unfair perspective to add given that hindsight is always 20/20, but listening to the Solar War now, the perspective is quite different. The SW gives you a sense of the "board" that is being fought over, the major components to each, and why each is important. Added on top of that is the strategies both sides are using to own pieces of that board....all while still having over-the-shoulder views and close-ups of characters we are following.

 

Compared to what we have on Beta Gammon--arguably an even grander fight--and it's "like, it was really big guys. Like, really really big."

 

Night and day.

I bet that’s because the specifics on the ground at BG are still being hashed out for a black book.

[Indefragable]

 

<snip>

I bet that’s because the specifics on the ground at BG are still being hashed out for a black book.

 

 

I don't disagree. I just found it made me ask more questions than it answered, and not in a good way. I think it's to Haley's credit how well the story comes off even though it doesn't really tell us anything outside of a few focused experiences for some characters.

 

even the whole Astropathic relay thing that is "revealed" to be the main objective of Horus' attack feels slipped in there at the end to suddenly give meaning to everything. You'd think that something that important would be mentioned early and often and be one of the landmarks of the system.

[Sanctimonius]

Quite decent and well written, as is most of Haley's work.  The titan-centric element was a nice and interesting experiment that I found to be positive, as well as coming up with a nice history for the Imperial Hunters.  However, I find that many of the scenes of the titan crews (both Solaria's and Vulpa's) when they are not in action are quite boring and could very much be skipped, and instead write about Imperial guard stuff on other parts of other planets, to provide further detail for the readers the scale of the battle.

The Sanguinius scene was very exciting and nicely done, and - not surprisingly - probably the best part of the novel imo. 

 

After reading it now, I feel that the events of Wolfsbane should've been tied to the battle of Beta-Garmon.  I'm not going express how I think the battle of Trisolian could be woven into the Beta-Garmon battle, but just seeing how Horus was wounded unto the brink of death twice, at the same spot, is just lame.  Wolfsbane and Titandeath could've been paired novels, Russ could've been at Beta-Garmon alongside the Angel and the Khagan, in which it was here (and not the battle of Trisolian) that he charged at Horus and wounded him, thus setting the stage for Slaves to Darkness.  And it could be on some space station in the Garmon system that magos Cawl was doing his work.  

 

Just finished, and yep, agreed. It would have been nice to see the sheer scale of the Beta-Garmon conflict, the (little c)chaos and confusion involved. The Imperials are throwing everything they have at this bottleneck, trying to recreate the Hot Gates of Thermoplylae, while the Rebels are moving vast numbers of their own troops forwards. This devolves into a slug-fest as the Imperials are pushed back, but holding their own, forcing Horus to step into the fray and display (finally) some of his much-vaunted skill at conflicts. The previously disarrayed rebel forces are suddenly cooperating, acting in concert, and routing the Imperials, while no less than three Primarchs attempt to use this opportunity. They know where Horus is, they know what he is doing, and they try to take him down. We get to see some epic fighting as they lead a desperate strikeforce to fight Horus, and he manages to fight them off, taking a near mortal wound in the process, but nearly killing Russ as well. 

 

It would have been a great two-parter, showcase some actual Primarch tactics and strategery, but instead we got two rather bland novels that didn't make huge sense. Horus is the best Primarch, and currently Chaos-powered, yet Russ takes his whole legion on a ridiculous suicide misson, decimating his forces, somehow reaches Horus and wounds him, could even kill him, buuuut.... just doesn't. Meanwhile Sanguinius reaches Beta-Garmon and is immediately appointed overall leader of the conflict, lets the Khan go do nothing much, and instead of actually leading as a general flits about feeling angsty while taking down a titan. I mean, sure, a titan is a big thing to kill, but one titan? While the whole conflict rages on? 

 

Haley is hit-and-miss for me. Sometimes he does a great job, I loved his Curze novel. Sometimes he is asked to quickly write a book that wasn't originally planed, but shoe-horned into the schedule because people felt the biggest conflict should probably have something written about it, and it showed. Some decent moments, some really good ones, and I like the formation of the legion stuff. But it was stilted, clumsy and showed a lack of preparation or even basic editing. 

[DarkChaplain]

Sanguinius "feeling angsty" in that scene? Hell no. He's determined and making use of his precognitive powers. Yeah, it is one Titan - but it is also one warrior taking it down. That Titan's defeat is more important as a symbol to the loyalists that they can triumph against the odds stacked against them. It's not about making a serious dent into the traitor forces - and Sanguinius even says as much, iirc.

 

This is a conflict where morale on the imperial side is absolutely abyssmal, no real command structure exists, and the traitors are dominating. Sanguinius gives them something to cheer about, stories to tell, and a source of inspiration for the common man fighting on the surface. That has meaning.

[Manchu warlord]

 

Quite decent and well written, as is most of Haley's work.  The titan-centric element was a nice and interesting experiment that I found to be positive, as well as coming up with a nice history for the Imperial Hunters.  However, I find that many of the scenes of the titan crews (both Solaria's and Vulpa's) when they are not in action are quite boring and could very much be skipped, and instead write about Imperial guard stuff on other parts of other planets, to provide further detail for the readers the scale of the battle.

The Sanguinius scene was very exciting and nicely done, and - not surprisingly - probably the best part of the novel imo. 

 

After reading it now, I feel that the events of Wolfsbane should've been tied to the battle of Beta-Garmon.  I'm not going express how I think the battle of Trisolian could be woven into the Beta-Garmon battle, but just seeing how Horus was wounded unto the brink of death twice, at the same spot, is just lame.  Wolfsbane and Titandeath could've been paired novels, Russ could've been at Beta-Garmon alongside the Angel and the Khagan, in which it was here (and not the battle of Trisolian) that he charged at Horus and wounded him, thus setting the stage for Slaves to Darkness.  And it could be on some space station in the Garmon system that magos Cawl was doing his work.  

Just finished, and yep, agreed. It would have been nice to see the sheer scale of the Beta-Garmon conflict, the (little c)chaos and confusion involved. The Imperials are throwing everything they have at this bottleneck, trying to recreate the Hot Gates of Thermoplylae, while the Rebels are moving vast numbers of their own troops forwards. This devolves into a slug-fest as the Imperials are pushed back, but holding their own, forcing Horus to step into the fray and display (finally) some of his much-vaunted skill at conflicts. The previously disarrayed rebel forces are suddenly cooperating, acting in concert, and routing the Imperials, while no less than three Primarchs attempt to use this opportunity. They know where Horus is, they know what he is doing, and they try to take him down. We get to see some epic fighting as they lead a desperate strikeforce to fight Horus, and he manages to fight them off, taking a near mortal wound in the process, but nearly killing Russ as well. 

 

It would have been a great two-parter, showcase some actual Primarch tactics and strategery, but instead we got two rather bland novels that didn't make huge sense. Horus is the best Primarch, and currently Chaos-powered, yet Russ takes his whole legion on a ridiculous suicide misson, decimating his forces, somehow reaches Horus and wounds him, could even kill him, buuuut.... just doesn't. Meanwhile Sanguinius reaches Beta-Garmon and is immediately appointed overall leader of the conflict, lets the Khan go do nothing much, and instead of actually leading as a general flits about feeling angsty while taking down a titan. I mean, sure, a titan is a big thing to kill, but one titan? While the whole conflict rages on? 

 

Haley is hit-and-miss for me. Sometimes he does a great job, I loved his Curze novel. Sometimes he is asked to quickly write a book that wasn't originally planed, but shoe-horned into the schedule because people felt the biggest conflict should probably have something written about it, and it showed. Some decent moments, some really good ones, and I like the formation of the legion stuff. But it was stilted, clumsy and showed a lack of preparation or even basic editing. 

 

 

Yup, no disagreement there.  

 

Although, every single author has written things that are "stupid" and things that "doesn't make sense".