Grey Knight Capability

[b1soul]

Five clear shafts of eye-burning lightning speared down from the void above us, crystallising into the outlines of silver-grey warriors bearing force halberds and crackling warhammers. They slammed into the heart of the enemy, scattering them with the force of their arrival before instantly bursting into choreographed killing movement.
...
The Grey Knights joined me. Their steel-grey armour still sizzled from the extremes of teleportation, and the homer-beacons on their shoulders throbbed with residual power. Four of them bore mighty blades that crackled with neon-blue disruptor charge, while their leader carried a heavy warhammer inscribed with runes of purity.
‘We come too late,’ said their leader.
I turned on him. The hall was now in confusion, the mobs running from Urbo’s advance, throwing themselves into the las-volleys like startled cattle.
‘What do you mean?’ I asked. We would kill them all now – by dawn, this place would be purged of its corruption. ‘This is ended here.’
His helm was caked in a dirty brown film of blood, all except the lenses, which glowed with blue fire. I could sense the psychic essence radiating from his core. It was like heat, leaking from his every gesture. He was perhaps a head shorter than I was, a little less heavily built. His armour was scoured raw where mine was ornate, and his movements were a fraction slower, though every part of him was suffused with the arcane potency of the warp.

As far as I know, non-GK Astartes are considerably slower than Custodes in combat. This seems to be imply that non-Primaris GK, for whatever reason (e.g. psychic boost and/or Emperor's gene seed), are almost as fast as Custodes. Seems consistent with how Captain Leodegarius of the GK easily dominates Captain Ventris of the UM. If true, Primaris GK would certainly give the Custodes a run for the status of most elite infantry in the IoM, no?

...or am I reading way too much into this?

[mc warhammer]

i’m assuming that passage is from a custode’s pov?

[b1soul]

Yes, it is from the PoV of Valerian, Shield-Captain of the Palaiologian Chamber of the Hykanatoi.

 

I am assuming the GK squad leader is a Justicar.

 

EDIT: Confirmed...Valerian meets Justicar Alcuin

[Xisor]

Where did you get "considerably slower"?

[Kelborn]

In the same book, Valerian states that although they fought differently, the GK were a match to him.

He's a single lion, fighting on his own, they were perfectly in comunion, adding to each other.

 

Yeah, they are slightly slower than him but their psychic powers compensate for this.

 

Really loved that part of the book. Could've been longer and with more interactions, tbh. Here's hope for a Wraight GK story. :P

[Tarvek Val]

I would be wary of saying that non-GK Astartes as a whole are considerably slower than Custodes. I don't think such a statement can really be proven without a definitive, in-universe quote saying so. The reason I would argue so is that there are different "types" of Space Marines. For example, I'll buy that the average Devastator would be considerably slower that a Custodes. They are burdened by heavier armor and equipment, and are typically on the bulkier side of the weight spectrum (think Pasanius from the Ultramarines books). I would accept a similar argument for, say, Terminators (which, given their heavy armor, is basically a given).

 

However!

What of Assault Marines, or even the average Tactical Marine? We know that Marines tend to train fanatically to better themselves in all styles of combat, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Marines with better-than-average reflexes and combat skills. That isn't even going into the blessings of Chaos (particularly Slaanesh and Khorne), which may make a once-average Marine quite a bit quicker and deadlier than they were before.

 

There are also exceptions to the rule, even if we can agree that Space Marines are indeed usually slower than the Custodes. Take Lucius, for example; a guy who is regarded as one of the best swordsmen of the Imperial-era human race. Maybe even characters like Khârn would be at about the same speed as a Custodes when the Nails kick in, who knows for sure at this point?

[Xisor]

Well put, Tarvek. And even then, there'll be a hefty element of 'personality' (nature vs nurture, strictly) involved.

 

Complicated further by Dev-Assault-tactical being a skills progression.

 

Are talking about a full-Battle Company tactical marine moonlighting as a Devastator, or a recruit raw from the Scout Company.

 

And even then: not blooded? Shrewd? Lightning reflexes? Extraordinarily diligent in training?

 

Between Chapters is a big enough distinction too (Salamander lacking heat vs Blood Angel in heat), that then between 'species' is a fiendish question.

 

Of course, faster in what circumstances? Five rounds rapid into a surprise target? On the draw? 100m sprint? Mental arithmetic?

 

Quickest and most accurate, or quickest but anarchic?

 

The combinations, to begin with, don't lend themselves well to Top Trumps, except where the I stat of olde is concerned.

 

Well, I and A.

 

And now Mv.

 

And benefits to tun/charge moves.

 

And helpful such Strategems available.

 

Even if we had the definitive in-universe quote Tarek indicates - I'm not sure any of us would seriously take it as authoritative. How authoritative could it ever really be?

[ZebraM]

I always thought this was one Custode who'd been fighting for a while was slightly better than a full squad of Grey Knights that just joined the battle.

[Tarvek Val]

Thank you, Xisor. You bring up some good points as well!
 

Between Chapters is a big enough distinction too (Salamander lacking heat vs Blood Angel in heat), that then between 'species' is a fiendish question.

 
I'm away from home right now, so my ability to back this up with textual evidence is limited, but my gut instinct for "fastest species" is telling me to go with either Chaos daemons (I'm thinking along the lines of 'Daemonettes of Slaanesh' or 'Bloodletters') or eldar (I'm thinking Harlequins and Wyches).
 
There are countless passages of daemonettes flitting through carnage, decapitating their enemies with lightning fast attacks. They've certainly got to be up there in terms of speed. Bloodletters, on the other hand, are the basic foot troops of Khorne, and they are noted for their prowess in close-quarters combat. 
 
In terms of eldar, the Games Workshop website has the following description for Wyches:

"In the craft of murder, Wyches have no equal. In battle, Wyches feed upon screams of pain. With combat drugs coursing through their veins, Wyches roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way, stabbing through visor's and neck-joints, slicing open a throat here and piercing a heart there."

Being able to dispatch enemies at close quarters with seemingly contemptuous ease despite armor speaks to the quick and nimble nature of the Wych cults. They also utilize fairly little armour, thus reducing any impediment to their speed in combat.
 
In terms of Harlequins, GW states the following:

"In battle, Harlequin Troupes move fast and hit hard, relying on speed and skill to annihilate the enemy before they even have time to raise their guns,"

 I'm blanking on story titles now, but I know I've read paragraphs where squads of Harlequins mow down fully armed Chaos Marines in close combat, which may indicate their their speed may be superior to those of the standard (Chaos) Space Marine.
 
 
Additionally, you bring up another excellent point; one I wish I had thought of sooner!

Even if we had the definitive in-universe quote Tarek indicates - I'm not sure any of us would seriously take it as authoritative. How authoritative could it ever really be?

This is so true; the speed, strength, and abilities of any faction are totally relative to the situation at hand. An example that springs to mind from The First Heretic:
 
 

The Emperor, in his infinite wisdom, sent a squadron of Custodes to watch over Lorgar and the Word Bearers after their humbling at Monarchia. These Custodians would later be slaughtered, to a man, by the Gal Vorbak (the first of the possessed Word Bearers). Though few of the Gal Vorbak survived the combat, or the ensuing carnage of the Dropsite Massacre, this would seem to show that the Custodians are not necessarily always the fastest, deadliest, and most efficient human soldiers.

[b1soul]

@ ZebraM

 

We're talking about Valerian's assessment that Justicar Alcuin is "a fraction" slower

 

Unless fraction is being used in a very odd way or Valerian's judgment is way off, that means Alcuin is only slightly slower than Valerian

 

@ Xisor and Tarvek

 

I am basing my assertion of how custodes butcher Astartes in Forge World, Emperor's Legion, and MoM

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

I am basing my assertion of how custodes butcher Astartes in Forge World, Emperor's Legion, and MoM

I see, thank you for the clarification.

 

The only thing I would be wary about here is the viewpoint. For ​Emperor's Legion and MoM at the very least, the books are primarily pro-Imperial. They highlight the triumphs of the Imperial troops and protagonists, including the Custodians. It's not like those books are going to explicitly focus on and emphasize how weak the Loyalist / Imperial forces are, or how easily they are defeated in combat. In MoM in particular though, it is continuously noted that the Loyalist forces defending the Emperor's project take catastrophic losses. Mechanicum soldiers, Imperial Fists, Sisters of Silence, and Custodians are all slaughtered in the 'forlorn hope' defense. While one can make the case that this is due largely to the numbers advantage the Traitors posses, the end results are the same in that the Loyalists take massive casualties.

 

Please note, I'm not trying to be contentious or argue for the sake of arguing. I am of the belief that it is nearly impossible to get a fully accurate comparison of any two factions within the Warhammer universe, because doing so would require you to cross-examine every single trait each faction possesses. In terms of combat prowess, we are dealing with raw speed, initiative, precision, accuracy, conditioning, weapons skills, resilience... There are countless arguments you could give for why any faction ought to be able to best another faction in a fair fight, but until it's actually put to the test (through either BL fiction or a tabletop game), who's to say whether Custodians are always faster than generic Space Marines?

 

Just my two cents on the subject. I find this topic very interesting, and look forward to what everyone else has to say! 

[b1soul]

I agree that there's conflicting lore about Astartes vs. Custodes...but the new stuff seems to heavily favour the Custodes

[Lord_Caerolion]

The only fluff I've seen even approximating the two is the above-mentioned "a fraction slower" line, or the various mentions that in squad-based combat, Astartes have the upper hand but that one-on-one the Custodes are superior. The fight between the Custodes and Argel Tal has been brought up, but the original Gal Vorbak are far beyond normal "Possessed", in capability, so they're not really an adequate comparison.

 

Everything we've seen about the Custodes goes on about how much more intricate their creation is, compared to the implants given to the Astartes, and about the physical superiority of the Custodes, only really hindered by the fact that they aren't trained in actual warfare like the Astartes are.

 

Lastly, I would argue that it's entirely possible to get a comparison of opposing factions, given that we literally have the official statistics for each model. Otherwise we may as well discuss if a Guardsman is more physically capable than Horus was. That's not to say that we can say "Guard should never win against Marines because Space Marines have power armour and IG have flashlights lol" etc, but we should definitely be able to say "an Eldar is physically faster than an Ork". Sure, it could be that a particular Custode is slower than a Space Marine, because the Custode has damaged armour, broken bones, and has been fighting for 40 days straight, up against a Red-Thirsting, stimmed-up, Slaught-dosed Blood Angel Assault Marine in special archaeotech armour, but the average Custode is faster than the average Astartes, because that's how the Emperor designed them. Until the creation of the Primarchs, they were the pinnacle of his biotechnology.

[b1soul]

"The fight between the Custodes and Argel Tal has been brought up, but the original Gal Vorbak are far beyond normal "Possessed", in capability, so they're not really an adequate comparison."

 

That kinda is a comparison...

 

Custodes go toe to toe with the original Gal Vorbak, who are considerably deadlier than regular Astartes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

True enough, I phrased that badly. "Custodes vs 1st gen Gal Vorbak is not indicative of how a Custodes vs Astartes fight would normally play out" is more what I'd meant.

[b1soul]

Got it...yeah. Custodes on Asartes butchery is usually how'd it play out, especially at the individual or squad-level. At a more macro level, Custodes might lose a bit of advantage.

 

I was never a fan of the idea of super-Custodes, but that is what FW and new BL works have given us.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's always what it was shown to be, though? Ever since Custodes have been a thing, they've always been portrayed as being almost on par with Primarchs, given they're the bodyguards of the Emperor Himself. I honestly can't think of anything that's portrayed them as Astartes-equivalents?

[b1soul]

"Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes.

 

 

The greatest differences lay in the mind. Though custodes shared a familial bond through the circles of their order, it was nothing like the keen brotherhood that cemented the Legions of the Astartes. Custodes were far more solitary beings: sentinels, watchmen, destined to stand forever, alone.

 

 

Custodes did not surround themselves with slaves and servitors, aides and handservants. They armoured themselves, alone, pragmatically, without ceremony."

 

Blood Games by Dan Abnett (2009)

[Mellow]

They have always been like Lions and Astartes have always generally been pack animals.

 

I also don’t recall any combat scenes with Custodians holding their own against a Primarch.

[b1soul]

From Codex Custodes:

 

Each Custodian is sublimely skilled, theirstrategic and tactical nous, bladesmanship and instinct little short of supernatural. They are to the Emperor’s Space Marines what those transhuman warriors are to unaugmented Imperial soldiery, an elevated elite whose raw strength and willpower are wholly insurmountable.

[mc warhammer]

i could've sworn the official GW line on this back in the days of tfh was that custodes were more or less on par with astartes and their differences were down to specialisations. even the guys in tfh were supposed to be exceptional for custodes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I remember it being that they were "on par" in that a group of Astartes had enough knowledge of squad-based tactics that they'd be able to level the playing field that way, but that individually, the Custodes would wipe the floor with them. Argel Tal wasn't able to last more than a few seconds or so in the practice cages against them.

[Mellow]

It’s a shame because in nearly every HH novel that Custodians have been in they have all been slaughtered with apparent ease. Even in single combat against Astartes.

 

Not quite the super elite fighters that they’re supposed to be is it.

[b1soul]

@ mc warhammer

 

There has been a massive shift between Blood Games (2009) and the recent FW Inferno and Custodes Codex. I think it has something to so with selling Custodes models.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It’s a shame because in nearly every HH novel that Custodians have been in they have all been slaughtered with apparent ease. Even in single combat against Astartes.

 

Not quite the super elite fighters that they’re supposed to be is it.

 

Really? Only fights I can think of off the top of my head are the fights between Argel Tal/Gal Vorbak against the squad of Custodes watching them, and their portrayals in Inferno. Against the Gal Vorbak they were roughly evenly matched against Super-Possessed, and in Inferno they butcher their way through the Thousand Sons. What portrayals am I missing?