Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 The black rage is why the Blood Angels have the Death Company. How is this not definitive? Make no mistake the Red Thirst is important, but I believe the Black Rage to be more so. Primaris Blood Angels need the Black Rage. Who doesn't want to see Primaris Blood Angel Death Company? I do. I get Ishagu when he says he doesn't want to see Primaris rehashes of existing units. I agree with him to a point. Blood Angels without Death Company are like Dark Angels with no Deathwing. Or Black Templars without Crusader Squads. I definitely want Primaris Death Company... And Primaris Deathwing/Ravenwing. Even if they are a different take on what we have. That's fine. I'm open to that. These organizations are iconic. That was my whole point originally when discussing this topic. Space Marines with a better assault characteristic isn't drastic from other chapters (I don't care if it's because of the red thirst, zeal or whatever) but a chapter with unique units like the Death Company are unique to those chapters. I think they need them. Another thing separate to this but utilizing new Primaris lore. Now that the Black Templars have been retconned into not having librarians due to their inability to make them... Not because of a doctrine... Shouldn't their new Geneseed Plus be capable of producing Librarians? Heresy? Oops? I'd love to see the lore explore that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 i disagree, i've been a BA player for 20+ years now, and I've rarely used deathcompany in my armies, or they've had a fairly limited showing.The red thirst and the noble bearing are the elements I've always been drawn to with them, the thing thats defined them is their dual curses, they've retained the red thirst we have seen, and are also still physically meant to be in the Angels image, what they also represented for the BA is hope - which is another common theme of the BA (which is why in the deathwatch RPG they had a unique oath called the oath of hope)Deathcompany are not like deathwing or crusader squads.the latter two are formations built around special training, the former is a place to put doomed warriors to give them one last chance to be useful.I'd say that if there were to be a primaris BA unique unit I'd rather see some form of mk10 equivalent to the sanguinary guard or better yet, a totally new melee orientated unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 We do disagree Blindhamster. Man I love Death Company. I want Death Company Redemptors with more close combat options. I want Death Company intercessors... Maybe with new options more focused on ripping and tearing. I want Primaris death company chaplains. I want Primaris Sanguinary Guard as well. I want Primaris Sanguinary priests. But losing the Death Company would be terrible. It's the hope in the face of ever present damnation that defines the Blood Angels to me. The Death Company are the face of that ever present damnation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Maybe we'll get Blood Angels Primaris elite shock troops who wear Black Armour but haven't completely lost their mind. A new unit that reminds the Chapter of how they were almost lost whilst bringing righteous fury down on the enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 We do disagree Blindhamster. Man I love Death Company. I want Death Company Redemptors with more close combat options. I want Death Company intercessors... Maybe with new options more focused on ripping and tearing. I want Primaris death company chaplains. I want Primaris Sanguinary Guard as well. I want Primaris Sanguinary priests. But losing the Death Company would be terrible. It's the hope in the face of ever present damnation that defines the Blood Angels to me. The Death Company are the face of that ever present damnation. The ever present damnation is the red thirst red thirst = becoming a monster black rage = losing your sanity The novel "Dante" and more recently "Devastation of Baal" did an excellent job of showing that the red thirst is the threat the BA have to be constantly aware of and fighting against lest they become monsters with no drive other than to rend and lust for blood. Whilst the Black Rage is a sad fate that can strike any out of the blue, but is generally a short lived fate. And as a side note, the red thirst = monster thing seems to be implied as a potential coming issue for primaris based on the last entry in the timeline for the codex where some intercessors literally rip their enemies apart and struggle to calm themselves afterward (much to Corbulos concern) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 It's really not about wanting or liking Deathcompany. I like them too and hope we'll get them for Primaris. However the Red Thirst is just more relevant. It's the original gene "flaw" the Emperor designed them to have. It defines their whole culture (blood rituals, being artsy to surpress it, being more humble) and their way of warfare (more close combat oriented because they sometimes can't control themselves anyway). On the other hand the Black Rage curse is something they got afterwards and literally the only way it affects them is that SOMETIMES SOME of them fall to it so they get send into their last battle as Death Company. Take away the Black Rage and barely anything changes for a Blood Angel. Take away the Red Thirst and you got a completely different chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 And as a side note, the red thirst = monster thing seems to be implied as a potential coming issue for primaris based on the last entry in the timeline for the codex where some intercessors literally rip their enemies apart and struggle to calm themselves afterward (much to Corbulos concern) Not to mention the mutated BA released from the tower during the Devastation of Baal which got re-established as canon by that again and is a potential fate of Primaris (and thus a potential Wulfen-like unit to come). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 We do disagree Blindhamster. Man I love Death Company. I want Death Company Redemptors with more close combat options. I want Death Company intercessors... Maybe with new options more focused on ripping and tearing. I want Primaris death company chaplains. I want Primaris Sanguinary Guard as well. I want Primaris Sanguinary priests. But losing the Death Company would be terrible. It's the hope in the face of ever present damnation that defines the Blood Angels to me. The Death Company are the face of that ever present damnation. The ever present damnation is the red thirst red thirst = becoming a monster black rage = losing your sanity The novel "Dante" and more recently "Devastation of Baal" did an excellent job of showing that the red thirst is the threat the BA have to be constantly aware of and fighting against lest they become monsters with no drive other than to rend and lust for blood. Whilst the Black Rage is a sad fate that can strike any out of the blue, but is generally a short lived fate. And as a side note, the red thirst = monster thing seems to be implied as a potential coming issue for primaris based on the last entry in the timeline for the codex where some intercessors literally rip their enemies apart and struggle to calm themselves afterward (much to Corbulos concern) Which is great. I love their fight against the Red Thirst. I'm heavily interested in that avenue for the Primaris. But why do the Blood Angels suffer the Black Rage? Because of the psychic ramifications of Sanguinius' death and the use of his genetic material post death to reconstitute the Blood Angels. And as you said it can hit anybody. From your most stalwart of heroes to the newest of initiates. Do we really want the Blood Angel Primaris to lose that? Remove the table top ramifications. That is such a cool aspect of the Blood Angels. It's what has always stood out to me. The Red Thirst has always been secondary to me. Other chapters have lost Primarchs. But the Blood Angels still struggle with that in a literal way 10,000 years removed. Since I do view Primaris as the future for all Chapters. Robbing the Blood Angels of that seems wrong. They have whole unit entrees dedicated to the Black Rage. But it's my opinion, right or wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I clocked what the real problem was when the Space Wolves were announced and GW themselves said you can take Primaris Librarians in a Space Wolf army. It's not really about Primaris Death Company or anything like that - it's about the Primaris adopting the themes and flavour of their parent Chapter, which they don't.Case in point, a Space Wolf army of True Marines has the following: Wolf Lords Wolf Priests Rune Priests Iron Wolves Wolf Guard Wolf Scouts Blood Claws Grey Hunters Long Fangs What does a Primaris Space Wolf force have? Primaris Captains Primaris Lieutenants Primaris Apothecaries Primaris Librarians Primaris Chaplains Primaris Intercessors Primaris Inceptors Primaris Aggressors Primaris Reivers Where is the Space Wolf unit in that list? And don't tell me that Primaris Captains are Wolf Lords - if they are, then Sisters of Battle are Space Marines. You can't just paint an Ultramarine in grey and call it a Wolf Lord. They are just so blatantly not a part of the forces they claim to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 It's the same for everyone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 It's the same for everyone. Except for the Black Templars... Who cannot take librarians... This is a conundrum. The Black Templars were retconned from not having librarians because of their own doctrine against psykers to not having librarians because they lost the ability to produce them. (I hate the retcon by the way) If the Primaris geneseed removes flaws and reconstitutes lost organs... Why can't the Black Templars create psykers now? If Cawl can remove the Black Rage, why can't he produce Black Templar Librarians? The Fists (yellow and blue) can. What's that story now? Can we go back to the "we really hate psykers" stuff again. Please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 Wouldn't it be amazing if they released the Primaris codex like the legions red book of the HH? One book covering all legions but with specific differences for all chapters, not as marked as the small marines but fluffy and in line with that identity. You could of course mix from your chapter codex units the same keywords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 They have only basic Primaris because there are only basic Primaris so far. The model range represents where we are in-universe so until GW advances the fluff far enough to give us chapter specific Primaris we won't see Datasheets for them. It's a bit clunky way to implement things but we know GWs new policy so it's somewhat understandable I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 pretty much how ive felt marines should be for a long time yeah.Base list they all share, then certain additions per chapter (or geneblood if they want to keep it more generic). It seems like it would be a super simple way to manage primaris tbh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Wouldn't it be amazing if they released the Primaris codex like the legions red book of the HH? One book covering all legions but with specific differences for all chapters, not as marked as the small marines but fluffy and in line with that identity. You could of course mix from your chapter codex units the same keywords. What if it was Codex: Ultima Founding, or Codex: Unnumbered Sons. That way we could have a book that can go into detail about Primaris only chapters and how they organize and operate without having to worry about how they integrated into legacy Chapters. A book that delves into the short histories of the Rift Stalkers, Fulminators, Wolfspear and the like. Have a unique Primaris chapter creator. Something that allows you to pick not just unique chapter tactics, but maybe a cool event system that further allows you to flesh out your chapters history whilst unlocking different strategems. Have a unique Chapter Tactic where instead of going with a specific legion you pick the Unnumbered Sons option. Which allows you to change out less defined tactics every turn to capitalize on specific situations. I would love something like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Am i the only one who disliked the Unnumbered sons shenanigan? @Boldthreat: Im seriously not bothering too much with BT now. Just gonna let it roll. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I'm indifferent to the Unnumbered Sons stuff. It's there so I figure let's use it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I'm hoping for codex Ultramarines, followed by expansions books for the main chapters featuring unique units, relics Warlord traits and strategems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I'm hoping for codex Ultramarines Codex: Codex Astartes? But seriously, I would love them to actually disentangle some of the less Codex-exacting Chapters from the 'standard' Codex: Space Marines. Raven Guard, White Scars and Salamanders are reasonably distinct in how they operate, and Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Iron Hands and Crimson Fists all have their own idiosyncrasies that are distinct from Ultramarines (and their closer descendants). I'm certain that other factions would bemoan yet more Space Marine Codexes, but still. It would take relatively little effort for the rules (although expanding upon/repeating the background for the other Chapters could possibly turn off GW from doing so). A few mini-Codex expansions to the basic Codex: Space Marines would go a long way to helping Templars, Fists, Hands, etc all get some more love without representing a herculean effort, at least! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Codex Primaris Marines will put them all into the same dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I clocked what the real problem was when the Space Wolves were announced and GW themselves said you can take Primaris Librarians in a Space Wolf army. It's not really about Primaris Death Company or anything like that - it's about the Primaris adopting the themes and flavour of their parent Chapter, which they don't. Case in point, a Space Wolf army of True Marines has the following: Wolf Lords Wolf Priests Rune Priests Iron Wolves Wolf Guard Wolf Scouts Blood Claws Grey Hunters Long Fangs What does a Primaris Space Wolf force have? Primaris Captains Primaris Lieutenants Primaris Apothecaries Primaris Librarians Primaris Chaplains Primaris Intercessors Primaris Inceptors Primaris Aggressors Primaris Reivers Where is the Space Wolf unit in that list? And don't tell me that Primaris Captains are Wolf Lords - if they are, then Sisters of Battle are Space Marines. You can't just paint an Ultramarine in grey and call it a Wolf Lord. They are just so blatantly not a part of the forces they claim to be. And what is a Wolf Lord except a Captain by another name? Hell, until the Codex gets released, that's exactly what Wolf Lords are, Space Marine Captains with access to Chapter-specific weapons. Grey Hunters are Space Wolf Tactical Marines with slightly different options. Hell, they're basically exactly the same as Crusader Squads, you just can't take Neophytes. Even a Rune Priest is basically just a Librarian with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and ice powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 "Yeah they're basically the same unit except with different names, traits, strategems, psychic powers, options and gear." With that logic there is no difference between power armor codecies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 In previous editions there basically weren't. At the moment, a Wolf Lord literally is a renamed Space Marine Captain. The point is that a whole bunch of Space Wolf units are literally just the Space Marine units with the generic Space Wolf army-wide special rules. Also, this isn't exactly out of the ordinary for the other Astartes releases. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't get anything special for their Primaris, because by-and-large, this wave of books has just been about bringing everything in line to 8th, not releasing new models. Once these are all done, we'll start seeing Wolfified Primaris units released. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Except that since 2nd Edition the Wolf Lord has had its own model. Same with almost every other Space Wolf role. These units are unique in model range, and for all intents and purposes always have been. Yes, you can use a normal captain to represent a Wolf Lord, just like you can use normal Terminators to represent Deathwing Terminators. But that doesn't mean that Deathwing Terminators are not distinct from regular Terminators. The Primaris are actually representing a step backwards across the 40k range now. Deathwatch are another example - Deathwatch Veterans have a distinct variant of Mk VIII armour. Primaris Deathwatch all use their regular armour. We're going in the wrong direction here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Why are you guys complaining about a limited model range that will quite obviously be expanded in the future? 1: It's like a broken record repeating in MULTIPLE topics. 2: This topic is about LORE, not model ranges and unit names! Here's a crazy idea: Don't invest in Primaris until the range is expanded and there's more variety if you don't like the current releases. In the meantime I'll enjoy my collection and look forward to future releases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/10/#findComment-5152610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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