Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Panzer]

Yeah while defending Baal against the Tyranids the whole Cadia thing happened simultaneously and like a day later Guilliman and his Crusade arrived to kill off the remaining Tyranids that got left over after the Rift and the Khorne Daemons messed with them. ^^

[Xisor]

In terms of the lore, do you hear the preposterousness of advocating for divorce of Chaos and Imperial?

 

It's an artificial divide.

 

In terms of specific model releases, it makes some sense, but almost everything that exists for the Imperium can be corrupted by Chaos.

 

Whilst I can appreciate it from a tabletop rules and model view, from a 'theme', it doesn't make actual sense.

 

As the age old quip (Portent.net, or earlier, I'm sure) went: the first thing a renegade Chapter does is throw out all its Whirlwinds and Landspeeders.

 

Chaos has no use for them!

 

They've missed a trick with the keywords though. ;)

[Ishagu]

I think the ranges are starting to be more distinguished anyways. Look at Death Guard and their unique units, also Thousand Sons are now similar in this regard after the AoS additions. I hope we never see any corrupter Primaris just to keep them as a unique loyalist force. When Emperor's Children come out the same will hopefully happen. Unique units, vehicles, etc

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I agree, Ishagu. Chaos armies need to distinguish themselves as more than just "Imperial armies, but spiky and evil."

[Panzer]

Agreed. It seems GW is going more towards the "they're old legions who either used up their old legions or got them turned into something different by the warp/dark mechanicum" direction instead of "they are a random corrupted chapter who just threw their modern stuff away because renegades herp derp".

It doesn't really do a lot for actual renegades but it offers a LOT of freedom to design more unique toys for each individual legion that separates them from imperial forces while at the same time with Primaris they do the same thing on the imperial side.

Over time we will end up with legions with cool and individual toys on one side and Primaris chapters/pseudo legions on the other side instead of just Marines and Marines with spikes (and some few cool toys).

[Xisor]

So how does that square with "Chaos corrupts"?

 

I'm not at all sure that it does.

 

In BFG, and with old Legions, that squares sortof sensibly - but it is still exceedingly flimsy. (And this is a lore thread.)

 

So, in terms of substantiating it or expanding on it, how do you see the justification going?

 

(I happen to like trying to squint and imagine the awkward explanations that can accommodate things, I think it's creative and enlightening, I just can't quite see what the angle is, or could be, here that is suitably compelling.)

 

If there was a visually distinct style for the 'Dark Adeptus' of the Dark Imperium, something that was more than simply "Imperium with spikes" (Currently it's "Imperium with fleshy tubes"), then I could see that being a new 'dark creed' that allows for thematic conversion kits and such, but that's just a new variety of the old 'with spikes', not really a substantial change.

 

So, again, where would you go with this?

 

Just background the renegades? Assume there are plenty of Chaos Primaris Chapters but that they're off screen because visually they're mostly boring?

 

I'm in a logical bind, I suppose.

 

For them not to exist is inconceivable, in my estimation. Incompatible, at least. Or requires a big rethink of my premise. You get me?

 

So I'm left thinking they must exist. And so what if they're spikey?

 

Currently Space Wolf/Dark Angels/Blood Angels Primaris are "just" Primaris with Wolf shoulders and the odd sword/helm.

 

New kits as something cool that's not just tweaks of the old? Sure. But that's not in contest with "Chaos Primaris", I don't think.

 

Conversion kits to expand usability of existing kits?

 

There's your Chaos Primaris. Easy. Next!

 

 

 

And then your Genestealer Primaris. ;)

 

 

 

(100% a thing that will definitely happen, honest guv.)

[Panzer]

Chaos corrupts over a long time on such a sclae. GW doesn't want to advance the story indefinitely. There is a definite point in time where :cuss hits the fan and the setting is basically over. 40k (or now 41k I guess) is right before that point in time. Often refered to as one minute before midnight. I think GWs current thinking is kinda that they don't have to worry about Primaris etc. getting corrupted because by that time they would've advanced the story beyond what is planned for the setting.

40k is WHFB endtimes in full force and unless they want to do something as drastic as AoS or retcon the whole setting they have to keep us there and only advance things just enough to tell us new stories. That's why the time used to be frozen from a narrative perspective and released stories were usually of past events. It also helps that time is screwed thanks to the great rift now I guess.

[Ishagu]

Individuals will still fall. We don't need to see entire Primaris chapters turn. That really would be Heresy 2.0

[Robbienw]

No it wouldn’t. Badab 2.0 maybe.

 

The heresy saw 9 entire legions turning, probably around 1 million marines in total. A couple chapters is minor by comparison.

[Xisor]

No it wouldn’t. Badab 2.0 maybe.

 

The heresy saw 9 entire legions turning, probably around 1 million marines in total. A couple chapters is minor by comparison.

By Guilliman's design.

 

He's also, narratively, reversing that.

 

In 40k's Dark Imperium, it's not one minute to midnight. One minute to midnight was several months after the Thirteenth of Secundus (when the bombardment began), which was ten thousand years ago.

 

Alternatively, the Thirteenth Black Crusade hitting Cadia was 'one minute to midnight'.

 

One minute to midnight was two hundred years ago, in Roboute's timeline.

 

40k's storyline isn't WHFB Endtimes (that was pre-The Gathering Storm, where named characters were being killed off willy-nilly - cref Vladimir Pugh, Aun'va etc), that was baby/bathwater story telling.

 

40k's Dark Imperium is 'post apocalyptic' in 40k terms. The old order has fallen, or is falling, or is staggering around a wasteland blind and drunk insisting it still rules the galaxy. (And possibly does.)

 

But for Cadia, for Biel Tann?

 

The setting had its apocalypse. For some of it its still to hit. For some of it, the apocalypse is done and dusted.

 

I'm pleased, at least, that they made it explicitly more varied.

 

Ruins and a golden age.

 

But Chaos working over a long time?

 

Horus at Davin!

[Ishagu]

The recent books are some of the best 40k fiction we've had. I feel if more people read them they'd be in board.

[Panzer]

 

In 40k's Dark Imperium, it's not one minute to midnight. One minute to midnight was several months after the Thirteenth of Secundus (when the bombardment began), which was ten thousand years ago.

 

Alternatively, the Thirteenth Black Crusade hitting Cadia was 'one minute to midnight'.

 

One minute to midnight was two hundred years ago, in Roboute's timeline.

 

40k's storyline isn't WHFB Endtimes (that was pre-The Gathering Storm, where named characters were being killed off willy-nilly - cref Vladimir Pugh, Aun'va etc), that was baby/bathwater story telling.

 

40k's Dark Imperium is 'post apocalyptic' in 40k terms. The old order has fallen, or is falling, or is staggering around a wasteland blind and drunk insisting it still rules the galaxy. (And possibly does.)

 

But for Cadia, for Biel Tann?

 

The setting had its apocalypse. For some of it its still to hit. For some of it, the apocalypse is done and dusted.

 

I'm pleased, at least, that they made it explicitly more varied.

 

Ruins and a golden age.

 

But Chaos working over a long time?

 

Horus at Davin!

 

 

That's just wrong. You are thinking way too small for the 40k narrative scale. It's still one minute to midnight. Maybe 59 seconds to midnight. But definitely not midnight or past midnight. That term describes the point in time when everything collapse and terra itself falls. Things got worse but it's still about to get even worse than that. We are still in the middle of the apocalypse, it just advanced a little bit further.

The recent books are some of the best 40k fiction we've had. I feel if more people read them they'd be in board.

 

For sure. I love Dark Imperium, Watchers of the Throne and the Fabius Bile novels and I'm looking forward to more!

[FlamingDeth]

From an Ork player point of view, anyone who wants the imperium's new toys for chaos for narrative purposes just need to hop on board with conversions and counts as. Want aggressors, but spiky? Run them as obliterators! Want a stormtalon but with MOAR SKULLS? Convert it up and run it as a heldrake! As long as there's a profile in your book that's "close enough" and you put effort into your conversion you should be all set.

[Ishagu]

Why would anyone actually WANT to just repeat units across books? It's led to the big mess that we have now where units can't be updated without a snowball effect that reaches across many factions.

Chaos shouldn't just be Spiky Marines. I want to see crazy, unique stuff that has diverged greatly.

[Panzer]

I don't even want a unit repeated in the SAME book but that's a whole different design problem for Marines lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

If anything, once they start expanding more on the Chaos Legions, we'll probably get a Codex: Heretic Astartes: Renegades and Traitors, or something like that, essentially moving the current Chaos Marine codex to be more representative of the Renegade Chapters like the Red Corsairs, while the other Chaos Legions get their own books.

[Ishagu]

What I love about Death Guard and Thousand Sons is that they aren't just a colour variation with one cult unit thrown in. I really hope Emperor's Children are as unique.

[DukeLeto69]

+++++THREAD MERGE+++++

 

Sorry but the OCD in me felt the need to add that ^ otherwise anyone reading the thread through this merge point might think my post was crazy!

 

However, good call on merging!

 

+++++TRANSMISSION ENDS+++++

 

Putting this in the BL forum as that is a subset of the LORE section and this area seems to attract people who are more interested in the lore as opposed to the game and miniatures...

 

I just don't understand why GW went with this whole Archmagos Cawl has been working secretly for 10,000 years and has a huge stockpile of Primaris on ice/stasis waiting to finish off! It just feels so obviously Deus ex machina and convenient.

 

Surely the bit in the lore that shows that existing Space Marines can be converted to Primaris (highly dangerous and high failure rates but possible - as per Calgar) was the only sensible way to go! It would have worked and been far less convenient and allowed for new truscale minis to be introduced to the game while over time eradicating all old marines as they all went through in-universe conversion! It would have kind of made sense (better sense to me anyway)...

 

1. RG is revived from stasis.

2. RG meets privately with the GE.

3. RG returns from that meeting armed with the Sangprimus Portum.

4. Over the next 100 years of the Indomitus Crusade each Space Marine chapter could have provided volunteers to undergo the process of transformation into Primaris.

5. Those who survived would not only have had the superiority of the Primaris but would ALSO have had veteran battle experience.

 

Surely from a lore POV that makes more sense and doesn't require any retrofitting of Cawl into the HH lore!

 

Personally I think that works better, is less controversial, and still creates an interesting tension between those chapters willing to provide volunteers and those who are too conservative/resistant.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Rob P]

What/who is GE?

[DukeLeto69]

God Emperor

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

They could have just released truescale sculps of old marines, and then made every space marine W2 A2 in the transition to 8th. Every space marine player, including myself,  would have crapped their pants with joy. The issue I have with Primaris is how disrespectful to old marine lore their arrival is. These super engineered uber newbies are showing up and doing everything that the old marines couldn't. On top of that, their arrival is yet another Ultra marine move, with Ultra Marines at the front of the charge. Again.

 

I'd like UM a lot better if they were made less amazing and more tactical, and if there was more tension between them and the other chapters, due to them constantly trying to force them into line. Make them the effective but annoyingly aragant brothers that the others have to put up with, superior in their role as creater of the codex. Then give other chapters chances to defy that and be amazing.

 

Now that Primaris are here, every space marine chapter is going to slowly be replaced by them, and it'll be another amazing move by the UM, proving once again how they can do everything themselves, blind folded and upside down. Every time GW make the decision to push UM, they kill Space Marine lore a little more. Non marine players see the marines getting special treatment. Players of other chapters see their chapter being passed over yet again. Obviously as a BT player this stings for me, but my faction doesn't even have it the worst. Iron Hands, Ravenguard, and White Scars really need some love. We all do.

 

...

 

But, back on topic. I disagree we needed Primaris at all. But now that we have them, I'm honestly hoping for a rift in the Imperium. I'd like Bobby G to try and disband the Imperial Faith, or else banish all of the Chapters that don't agree with how he's tampering with the Emperor's work. Make it so that, while the Imperium still stands against outside threats, internally there is a faction that has been banished, or actively resists the rule of Bobby G. Hell, maybe end it with Bobby attacking the others to try and take complete control of the Imperium, and another Primarch or two comes back to stop him. or He attacks, chaos uses that moment to attack Terra. The Golden Throne is destroyed, and Terra goes down. Now the Empire is fractured and on the brink of collapse because one of the Emperor's sons got full of himself. Then big E can reincarnate and start uniting his empire again.

 

In short. I dont' want this change to go unanswered. I don't care how it comes about, just as long as something in world happens to point out how screwed up all of this is. Many people, including writers and designers for GW, have stated that the rise of Primaris isn't a beacon of hope. it's a last ditch effort to save things. But man, I didn't want new better marines to swoop in and try and save the day, whether they succeed or fail. I want my old guys to fight the good fight and stop getting out classed.

[Roomsky]

Unless its setting something up, like a schism as mentioned above, I don't know why they didn't just introduce Primaris armor. Cawl wouldn't have to be 10,000 years old, the gene seed flaws wouldn't have to be overlooked, and they could be nebulously hard to mass produce, so normal marines wouldn't lose a role. Cawl could still be Guilliman's forward-thinking heretek friend for a willingness to innovate. 

 

I do like how it means a few true Imperial Fists are active though, after the War of the Beast debacle.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Thunder warriors return. Get gene seed.

 

Would of much rather preferred.

[Dosjetka]

As this does not pertain solely to Black Library and its publishings, instead covering a much vaster topic, I have moved it to the appropriate section.

[Phoebus]

The only issue I have with this lore is the notion that Cawl has been around for ten millennia as part of a contingency plan of Guilliman’s, which conveniently doesn’t get put in motion until it’s almost (if not actually) too late. It’s just not very compelling stuff.

 

What I find ironic is that Black Library’s Horus Heresy team more or less invented the Deus ex Machina device for Guilliman’s resurrection with the Heart or Iron relic they featured in their Shattered Legions stories. I mean, the signature aspect of this device is that it worked on its subject even while they were in stasis — which directly tied with the old lore wherein certain Ultramarines believed Guilliman’s mortal wounds were healing. Cawl as an almost-heretek who dares to unlock Guilliman’s stasis field because he thinks he knows better (in possession of forbidden lore about the Heart of Iron, or whatever) and subsequently combines his genius with the primarch’s to arrive at the Primaris gene-seed improvements and the Rubicon Primaris gambit feels more plausible than what we actually got.

 

Guilliman’s Indomitus Crusade could have easily served as a vehicle wherein the Primaris gene-seed developed from the tithed gene-seed stored in Terra (or Mars?) was delivered to each Adeptus Astartes Chapter world in turn. Imagine if, instead of a generation of hundreds of thousands of warriors conveniently being kept in stasis for millennia, Guilliman and Cawl had turned the vat-grown clones the Adeptus Mechanicus kept in laboratory slavery to cultivate the tithed gene-seed into their greatest super-warriors?