Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Speaking for myself, I quite like to get invested in the lore of whatever army I happen to be playing. I play Black Templars specificly because of their lore, and how it appealed to me more than the other chapters. I enjoy the high moments of the chapter, as well as their defeats, and the odd quirks that might make them unappealing to other players. I'd rather not ride that train 85 percent of the way to the station, then jump off before it crashes. It'd be much better if the train never crashed in the first place.

 

I've seen the word 'whining' thrown around recently in a few different threads. So let me make it clear. Everything I write on this forum is meant to express my opinion on the state of game mechanics, lore, etc. I'm not going to snub other people for letting me know what they do and do not like in a public space specificly designed to have those discussions. When things happen in the game world that I find cool, I'm going to be there cheering with everyone else. When things happen that I do not find cool, I'm going to point out what I don't find cool about it, and hope that enough people do the same that it doesn't happen again. My words aren't 'Take it back, GW!' they're 'Let's try harder next time.'

 

There are people who are fond of the Primaris. Some like their design, others their lore, and still others are just happy that they offer a chance to kit bash traditional marines to appropriate sizes. That's great. They should buy those things and let GW know how cool they are. And while they do that, I'm going to avoid buying them and point out why. If it gets fixed, I'll be in the next wave. if it doesn't, I won't.

 

Anyway.

 

On the topic of lore, there seem to be three camps of people:

 

Those who have the ability to ignore sections of fluff and play how they want.

 

Those who can't ignore what they see as giant flaws, because they are all or nothing players. they can't love something half way.

 

Those who don't see what is happening as having flaws to ignore.

 

Hopefully something will happen with Vigilus, or maybe the next campaign book, to bridge that gap. As it stands, I doubt it. Vigilus is getting me more hyped for chaos than anything else. The elite sniper primaris units and new psychers don't mean much to me. I have the worrying feeling that as this story progresses, we're going to see Primaris move further into the forefront of every story.

 

That being said, there is great potential here for a sudden sharp turn. Primaris marines could turn out to be just as likely to switch to chaos, due to the trator genes used in their creation. A host of them suddenly switching sides could be what loses the war, and drives a bigger wedge between Primaris and their older brothers. Alternatively, they could turn out to be more unstable than anticipated. It could be that they are actually Thunder Warriors returned, and we learn just how dangerous they can be without Big E keeping them contained.

 

What I need, as a lover of the lore, is for Primaris to feel like less of a trump card. At this point it doesn't matter if the Imperium loses the fight, they'd have lost even faster without the Primaris. That has been made abundantly clear, and is why people are refering to them as Mary Sues. They are a pure, 100 percent positive across the board, story wise. The extra deaths that might happen from Marines being transformed doesn't make a dent in that impression, because they are being transformed into something better than a Space Marine, IE, a Primaris. The very fact that such a transformation is considered as an option helps to outline the issue. To dip a toe into tainted waters, that is also the problem I have with the Um. They too often feel like the trump card faction.

 

Throw some wrenches into the Primaris works and give me something to admire about them besides, 'They're better.' I haven't seen enough of that yet. Even with the published fiction.

[Panzer]

My issue with Primaris is the ham-fisted fluff-tification of them.

 

I believe I just read in one of the above comments that you can turn a cripple into a primaris? Awesome... so instead of "we take the best of the best", who can survive a rigourous training regime to turn 1 in 1000 into a marine. But now we have... "yeah we'll take anyone and she'll be right". Awesome.

 

But then for a marine who is the pinnacle of bio-engineering, super tough and resilient etc... him turning into a primaris is some super dangerous task, even thought he has significantly better coping mechanisms than poor little Timmy who was crippled by space-polio... Right. 

 

Then we touch on the huge death rates and difficulty of turning a super warrior into a super-duper warrior. Surely the chapter bean counters would be like....

 

Primarisisation Guy: "So we have Brother John who wants to be upgraded into a Primaris Marine. We have sunk millions of space dollars into John to make him the best of the best. But he wants to be bester! So we'll allow him to take a super dangerous operation to make him bester than ever right?"

 

Bean Counter: "But sir, the primarising of a normal human is much easier than turning them into a normal space marine.. why don't we just go down to the local children's home, round up the cripples and push them through the grinder. That way if they die, we don't lose a million space-dollar super weapon and just some poor urchin. That way there is no risk to Brother John and he can keep fighting and making his money back!"

 

Primarisisation Guy: " Nope... we're going to risk Johns decades of experience and wads of space-dollars already spent because he wants to be betterer and thats the end of that"..

 

So I know this is a rebounding echo chamber of "Primaris Suck" or "Primaris are the best ever".... but I honestly can't get my head around how the pro-primaris party are lapping up the drivel...

 

Also as an aside I would of been one of the 'yay true-scale' marine crowd... 

 

To be fair it never made much sense that Marines only take recruits from deathworlds or put them through some ridiculous tests that only few survive. If you have technology to turn children into full grown super soldiers you don't need to limit your recruitment to the top athletes among said children. It's just the usual superstition that's common in the Imperium. That being said not all chapters did it that way and not every chapter will suddenly decide that it's fine to turn cripples into Primaris. Their chapter culture and believes didn't change at all so they have no reason to change the way they do things if they aren't forced to do by special circumstances.

 

Regular Marines turning into Primaris is a WAY different process than turning a regular human into a Primaris. That's not even comparable. A regular Marine is already bio-engineered and a full-grown being. The process to turn him into a Primaris involves him actually dieing for several minutes while they literally take his body apart and put it back together. A regular human becoming a Primaris is pretty much the same process as them becoming a regular Marine just with some additional organs implanted during the process.

Also Marines aren't the pinnacle of bio-engineering. Custodes are. Marines are mass produced soldiers good just enough to conquer the galaxy at a time chaos, Tyranids and Necrons didn't exist and several Primarchs walked around and fought for the Imperium.

 

As I said before most chapters won't suddenly go and turn their regular Marines into Primaris. The process is probably reserved for some special individual beings. Like a high honored Captain (aka named characters) or, if possible, gravely wounded characters instead of putting them into a dreadnought which kills most Marines as well btw.

 

Last but not least, Cawl stated that the high mortality rate is not the last word about it. It's what he told Calgar&Co when they asked him about it without giving him any chance or time to actually refine that process. Up until that point it was just a theory. It reads like if he has some time to actually work on it he can reduce the risk.

[Panzer]

 

What I need, as a lover of the lore, is for Primaris to feel like less of a trump card. At this point it doesn't matter if the Imperium loses the fight, they'd have lost even faster without the Primaris. That has been made abundantly clear, and is why people are refering to them as Mary Sues. They are a pure, 100 percent positive across the board, story wise. The extra deaths that might happen from Marines being transformed doesn't make a dent in that impression, because they are being transformed into something better than a Space Marine, IE, a Primaris. The very fact that such a transformation is considered as an option helps to outline the issue. To dip a toe into tainted waters, that is also the problem I have with the Um. They too often feel like the trump card faction.

 

Throw some wrenches into the Primaris works and give me something to admire about them besides, 'They're better.' I haven't seen enough of that yet. Even with the published fiction.

 

Well to be fair Marines ARE the trump card of the Imperium. They are few and they have considerable impact on any battlefield they arrive. Often only a squad or just a half-squad gets deployed to cleanse a whole planet of a few daemons/xenos (read, not major faction we see on the board). And that's before Primaris.

Also that's not the definition of Mary Sue. That's just the definition of something being better than what was before. I agree though that Primaris would be more interesting if they'd at least share some of the flaws regular Marines have and there are indeed indications that it is the case or will be the case, however GW simply hasn't proceeded that far with their story yet so it's once more just a case of people not being patient and expecting to suddenly have the kind of fluff development regular Marines have without realising that Primaris are super new while Marines have decades of fluff written for them already.

[DukeLeto69]

If folks don't like the Primaris fluff, why not just ignore it and replace it with your personal flavor of "equipment makes them better" or something and their training doctrine simply observes methods used in the Legions, then just enjoy true-scale Marines? I mean you really don't have to partake in the fluff you don't want to - it may just take more on your part to do so, but typically at your table, it's not going to be an issue.

But you are making an assumption that everyone who is invested in W40k still plays on the tabletop!

 

I'm an old timer. I played between 1987 and the mid 90s. So haven't played since second edition BUT rediscovered my love of the setting in around 2006 when I bought the Eisenhorn omnibus. Since then I have bought a truck load of Black Library books and all the rule books, campaign books, codexes, Forgeworld books as well as ebaying to fill in the gaps in those book types between 2nd edition up to 4th edition. Basically, despite not buying a single miniature or building a single kit or playing any games, I have spent a tonne of cash and time in this universe because for me it is the single most interesting sci fi setting ever devised.

 

So for folks like me (and I know I am not the only one - just read the Black Library forums) the LORE is really ALL that matters - hence being a bit annoyed by this Primaris stuff!

[Toxichobbit]

I'm going to echo what many others are saying about Primaris law. To me, it feels badly implemented. They're too perfect. But also, too generic. They lack the personality of older Astartes - not on a 1 to 1, individual character basis, but en masse. The Primaris, as they are now, feel more like generic super-soldiers than Astartes, something that nerd culture is already inundated with. The models don't help with their proliferation of tacti-cool and lack of 40k gothic. If I wanted tacti-cool, generic stuff, I'd be playing Halo or Anthem or something. I don't, I want the grim, gothic, quasi-religious warrior monks that I've grown to love.

 

I can ignore small inconsistencies in the lore, I can ignore/head-cannon small parts I don't like, but the Primaris are too big and too omni-present for that. Ignoring/head-cannoning them is a huge ask of someone who actually cares about the lore.

 

That said, I'm willing to give GW time to develop them. I'm not really interested in them anymore (I was at the start) and for the first time ever, I'm actually more into the Chaos side of releases. But, going from Jes' comments on Voxcast, they have plans to develop and integrate them into more traditional Astartes roles, at least model wise. So Primaris at the moment are on hold for me, I'll see where GW take them when they've got all the basics fleshed out.

[Panzer]

I'm going to echo what many others are saying about Primaris law. To me, it feels badly implemented. They're too perfect. But also, too generic. They lack the personality of older Astartes - not on a 1 to 1, individual character basis, but en masse. The Primaris, as they are now, feel more like generic super-soldiers than Astartes, something that nerd culture is already inundated with. The models don't help with their proliferation of tacti-cool and lack of 40k gothic. If I wanted tacti-cool, generic stuff, I'd be playing Halo or Anthem or something. I don't, I want the grim, gothic, quasi-religious warrior monks that I've grown to love.

 

I can ignore small inconsistencies in the lore, I can ignore/head-cannon small parts I don't like, but the Primaris are too big and too omni-present for that. Ignoring/head-cannoning them is a huge ask of someone who actually cares about the lore.

 

That said, I'm willing to give GW time to develop them. I'm not really interested in them anymore (I was at the start) and for the first time ever, I'm actually more into the Chaos side of releases. But, going from Jes' comments on Voxcast, they have plans to develop and integrate them into more traditional Astartes roles, at least model wise. So Primaris at the moment are on hold for me, I'll see where GW take them when they've got all the basics fleshed out.

 

To be fair unless you do some kitbashing neither Tacticals, Terminators or Assault Marines are any more gothic/less tacti-cool than Intercessors, Aggressors or Inceptors. Just look at the models. They are just as bland. People just got used to decades of kitbashing. Something that is yet to come for Primaris as they are only about 2 years old yet.

[Robbienw]

Intercessors are slightly more tacticool cause of the rail on their bolters and the sergeants fold out arm computer :lol: ;)

[Panzer]

Intercessors are slightly more tacticool cause of the rail on their bolters and the sergeants fold out arm computer

Fair enough. Small details though. Paint the computer panel as armour and it's just another weird armour panel and I really wouldn't call the tiny rail tacti-cool. :D

[Brother Casman]

The Primaris Lore feels a bit "start of the Great Crusade" to me. A living legend has mustered an army and is crisscrossing the galaxy reinforcing the beleaguered worlds of humanity. For the first time in living memory, the common folk of the Imperium have some hope that maybe, maybe things will be all right. And for a little while, they're right, the forces of the Imperium are pushing back the night.

 

On the Terran side of the Great Rift.

 

Hmmm... the Galaxy is a more dangerous place than before, in the time of the Emperor. Surely, it's not a "big" problem, the Imperium of Man has stood for 10,000 years and encompasses 1,000,000 worlds.

 

While the Imperium claims to control the Galaxy, and maintains a presence on the Dark side of the Great Rift, I suspect that it's just empty words, except for small enclaves like the Blood Angel homeworld. But not to worry, for among it's small outposts, the Imperium controls the Nachmund Gauntlet, and the "bastion world" at it's far end.

 

The world of Vigilus.

 

Hmmm... it's suffering a bit of an invasion. A few Orks, some Genestealer Cultists, the Black Legion. Surely, the might of the Adeptus Astartes, bolstered by the Primaris Space Marines, will be enough to keep this world in the hands of the Imperium.

 

Well, maybe, but maybe not. We've seen (in other conflicts) that the Primaris Space Marines aren't quite as "perfect" as Cawl claims them to be. There are hints of flaws beneath the surface, and I fully expect that these will be exposed in due time. After all, the Galaxy is arguably more Chaos-tainted than it was during the Great Crusade, and Chaos managed to stake a claim on Horus even then. What could the Dark Powers do in this time period? Especially with all those systems consumed by the Great Rift? I'm sure that we'll see the Primaris Space Marines begin to falter.

 

So, I'll leave you with a hypothetical: what if the Black Legion succeeds in capturing Vigilus and corrupting it? It'd divide the Imperium into two, for real, handing the Primaris Space Marines a tangible defeat, a very real failure. I'd think this would force some soul-searching, mass hysteria, cults of doom, etc, in the Imperium... on the Terran side of the Great Rift. The Dark side, Imperium Nihilus, would collapse, except for the little enclaves and outposts. It's not like any help would be coming from the Imperium Sanctus on the other side of the Great Rift. All of our grim, gothic, bleak darkness could come back to the fore, as Guilliman and the Lords of Terra grapple with the ramifications of this; imagine the stories and battles that could come from an event like this. The Adeptus Astartes became Primaris Space Marines, and it wasn't enough.

 

----------

 

TL;DR: I think we're looking at the beginning of a slowly evolving narrative and we've only seen the beginnings of the trials of the Primaris Space Marines. Their flaws will be exposed and explored in future publications, it'll just take a while to get there. Given what happened to the Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar, I fully expect something bad to happen to the Primaris Space Marines.

[Panzer]

The Primaris Lore feels a bit "start of the Great Crusade" to me. A living legend has mustered an army and is crisscrossing the galaxy reinforcing the beleaguered worlds of humanity. For the first time in living memory, the common folk of the Imperium have some hope that maybe, maybe things will be all right. And for a little while, they're right, the forces of the Imperium are pushing back the night.

 

On the Terran side of the Great Rift.

 

Hmmm... the Galaxy is a more dangerous place than before, in the time of the Emperor. Surely, it's not a "big" problem, the Imperium of Man has stood for 10,000 years and encompasses 1,000,000 worlds.

 

While the Imperium claims to control the Galaxy, and maintains a presence on the Dark side of the Great Rift, I suspect that it's just empty words, except for small enclaves like the Blood Angel homeworld. But not to worry, for among it's small outposts, the Imperium controls the Nachmund Gauntlet, and the "bastion world" at it's far end.

 

The world of Vigilus.

 

Hmmm... it's suffering a bit of an invasion. A few Orks, some Genestealer Cultists, the Black Legion. Surely, the might of the Adeptus Astartes, bolstered by the Primaris Space Marines, will be enough to keep this world in the hands of the Imperium.

 

Well, maybe, but maybe not. We've seen (in other conflicts) that the Primaris Space Marines aren't quite as "perfect" as Cawl claims them to be. There are hints of flaws beneath the surface, and I fully expect that these will be exposed in due time. After all, the Galaxy is arguably more Chaos-tainted than it was during the Great Crusade, and Chaos managed to stake a claim on Horus even then. What could the Dark Powers do in this time period? Especially with all those systems consumed by the Great Rift? I'm sure that we'll see the Primaris Space Marines begin to falter.

 

So, I'll leave you with a hypothetical: what if the Black Legion succeeds in capturing Vigilus and corrupting it? It'd divide the Imperium into two, for real, handing the Primaris Space Marines a tangible defeat, a very real failure. I'd think this would force some soul-searching, mass hysteria, cults of doom, etc, in the Imperium... on the Terran side of the Great Rift. The Dark side, Imperium Nihilus, would collapse, except for the little enclaves and outposts. It's not like any help would be coming from the Imperium Sanctus on the other side of the Great Rift. All of our grim, gothic, bleak darkness could come back to the fore, as Guilliman and the Lords of Terra grapple with the ramifications of this; imagine the stories and battles that could come from an event like this. The Adeptus Astartes became Primaris Space Marines, and it wasn't enough.

 

----------

 

TL;DR: I think we're looking at the beginning of a slowly evolving narrative and we've only seen the beginnings of the trials of the Primaris Space Marines. Their flaws will be exposed and explored in future publications, it'll just take a while to get there. Given what happened to the Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar, I fully expect something bad to happen to the Primaris Space Marines.

 

I REALLY hope Chaos wins on Vigilus and the situation worsens for the Imperium. I really really do. I don't see it happening though. GW is still afraid to commit a real victory to anyone.

Damocles? The imperium "won" but ultimately the T'au got the planet back and re-build their whole army within an extremely short time, the death of the top Ethereal had no further implications and the burning gulf got snuffed out by the great rift so they are free to travel in that direction again.

Cadia? Chaos "won" but Abaddon got gravely wounded and had to sacrifice his only blackstone fortress and his gathered forces scattered immediately afterwards again to do their own thing ... oh and Guilliman returned with the Primaris so Chaos couldn't really cash in on their victory afterwards either.

Seriously, when was the last time a victory was truly a victory among the bigger events in 40k?

[Brother Casman]

I REALLY hope Chaos wins on Vigilus and the situation worsens for the Imperium. I really really do. I don't see it happening though. GW is still afraid to commit a real victory to anyone.

Damocles? The imperium "won" but ultimately the T'au got the planet back and re-build their whole army within an extremely short time, the death of the top Ethereal had no further implications and the burning gulf got snuffed out by the great rift so they are free to travel in that direction again.

Cadia? Chaos "won" but Abaddon got gravely wounded and had to sacrifice his only blackstone fortress and his gathered forces scattered immediately afterwards again to do their own thing ... oh and Guilliman returned with the Primaris so Chaos couldn't really cash in on their victory afterwards either.

Seriously, when was the last time a victory was truly a victory among the bigger events in 40k?

Aye, that's why it's only a hypothetical: a possible way for GW to take the shine off Guilliman's New Model Army. I expect something bad to happen, I just don't know when.

[Guest Triszin]

 

The Primaris Lore feels a bit "start of the Great Crusade" to me. A living legend has mustered an army and is crisscrossing the galaxy reinforcing the beleaguered worlds of humanity. For the first time in living memory, the common folk of the Imperium have some hope that maybe, maybe things will be all right. And for a little while, they're right, the forces of the Imperium are pushing back the night.

 

On the Terran side of the Great Rift.

 

Hmmm... the Galaxy is a more dangerous place than before, in the time of the Emperor. Surely, it's not a "big" problem, the Imperium of Man has stood for 10,000 years and encompasses 1,000,000 worlds.

 

While the Imperium claims to control the Galaxy, and maintains a presence on the Dark side of the Great Rift, I suspect that it's just empty words, except for small enclaves like the Blood Angel homeworld. But not to worry, for among it's small outposts, the Imperium controls the Nachmund Gauntlet, and the "bastion world" at it's far end.

 

The world of Vigilus.

 

Hmmm... it's suffering a bit of an invasion. A few Orks, some Genestealer Cultists, the Black Legion. Surely, the might of the Adeptus Astartes, bolstered by the Primaris Space Marines, will be enough to keep this world in the hands of the Imperium.

 

Well, maybe, but maybe not. We've seen (in other conflicts) that the Primaris Space Marines aren't quite as "perfect" as Cawl claims them to be. There are hints of flaws beneath the surface, and I fully expect that these will be exposed in due time. After all, the Galaxy is arguably more Chaos-tainted than it was during the Great Crusade, and Chaos managed to stake a claim on Horus even then. What could the Dark Powers do in this time period? Especially with all those systems consumed by the Great Rift? I'm sure that we'll see the Primaris Space Marines begin to falter.

 

So, I'll leave you with a hypothetical: what if the Black Legion succeeds in capturing Vigilus and corrupting it? It'd divide the Imperium into two, for real, handing the Primaris Space Marines a tangible defeat, a very real failure. I'd think this would force some soul-searching, mass hysteria, cults of doom, etc, in the Imperium... on the Terran side of the Great Rift. The Dark side, Imperium Nihilus, would collapse, except for the little enclaves and outposts. It's not like any help would be coming from the Imperium Sanctus on the other side of the Great Rift. All of our grim, gothic, bleak darkness could come back to the fore, as Guilliman and the Lords of Terra grapple with the ramifications of this; imagine the stories and battles that could come from an event like this. The Adeptus Astartes became Primaris Space Marines, and it wasn't enough.

 

----------

 

TL;DR: I think we're looking at the beginning of a slowly evolving narrative and we've only seen the beginnings of the trials of the Primaris Space Marines. Their flaws will be exposed and explored in future publications, it'll just take a while to get there. Given what happened to the Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar, I fully expect something bad to happen to the Primaris Space Marines.

 

I REALLY hope Chaos wins on Vigilus and the situation worsens for the Imperium. I really really do. I don't see it happening though. GW is still afraid to commit a real victory to anyone.

Damocles? The imperium "won" but ultimately the T'au got the planet back and re-build their whole army within an extremely short time, the death of the top Ethereal had no further implications and the burning gulf got snuffed out by the great rift so they are free to travel in that direction again.

Cadia? Chaos "won" but Abaddon got gravely wounded and had to sacrifice his only blackstone fortress and his gathered forces scattered immediately afterwards again to do their own thing ... oh and Guilliman returned with the Primaris so Chaos couldn't really cash in on their victory afterwards either.

Seriously, when was the last time a victory was truly a victory among the bigger events in 40k?

 

I agree.

 

I dont want the imperium to hold vigilus.

 

-------------------------------------------------

I'd be fine with Black legion, NIDS, or ORKS taking vigilus.

 

why?

 

With Mort, Magnus, Abaddon, and add Fulgrim in, as harrowing and attacking the IMperial side of the rift.

 

Robby is stuck on terra doing logistics, he cannot step away from it for a moment, or sectors would literally be lost. he is commanding hundreds of conflicts at any one moment.

THis puts Robby into a sour, desperate depressed mood. He loses ground day by day, inch by inch. if he would fight his brothers in the open then untold amounts of ground would be lost. he sees this as a losing effort, and is filled with despair internally.

 

Cawl, Astra militarum, Marines, whomever, are inventing tactics/weapons to fight the never born and xenos and traitors.

 

Then 1 of 2 Primarchs arrive.

 

DORN or RUSS. (this would ease the tension on robby and even give him some joy, but the 10k years have changed his brothers)

 

I vote RUSS, RUSS takes the fight to his brothers and assists robute in reclaiming and defending the imperial side.

new primaris troopers are developed, bullets run out, a power axe and chain saw blade lasts a lot longer than bullets against the never born.

 

but even with RUSS back, they are back to break even, taking ground here losing it there. and an occasional suicide supply run to nihulus but only ever occasionally hearing something back from nihulus

 

They also have no contact with imperium nihilus.

 

DORN shows up, then DORN will command a massive crusade through vigilus to reach secundus with resupplies incase any imperial is still alive.

 

Dorn orders the total fleets of black templars to merge into one, they lead it, introducing further melee cqc centric builds/tactics.

 

Then crusade their way through vigilus and reach the other side. to astounding and dire news.

 

THere are still imperial outposts. but tons of area is lost.

 

The lion is active using the rock as a massive FoB for all the imperial defenders. and its revealed hes been fighting other deamon primarchs not present.

 

and just when they get there.

 

TIAMET RISES. A aspect of the Hive mind is created at TIamet, NID super organism of primarch str in stature and power.

 

----

 

we now have multiple loyal primachs influencing primaris production, tactics and equipment.

 

----

 

I also think CORAX should arrive after the Primaris marines are starting to have serious flaws being generated and cawl cant figure it out.

imagine flaws thought not to be present in other chapters, like the ultra marines, suddenly having flaws, arrive BECAUSE of the primaris process.

[Panzer]

 

 

The Primaris Lore feels a bit "start of the Great Crusade" to me. A living legend has mustered an army and is crisscrossing the galaxy reinforcing the beleaguered worlds of humanity. For the first time in living memory, the common folk of the Imperium have some hope that maybe, maybe things will be all right. And for a little while, they're right, the forces of the Imperium are pushing back the night.

 

On the Terran side of the Great Rift.

 

Hmmm... the Galaxy is a more dangerous place than before, in the time of the Emperor. Surely, it's not a "big" problem, the Imperium of Man has stood for 10,000 years and encompasses 1,000,000 worlds.

 

While the Imperium claims to control the Galaxy, and maintains a presence on the Dark side of the Great Rift, I suspect that it's just empty words, except for small enclaves like the Blood Angel homeworld. But not to worry, for among it's small outposts, the Imperium controls the Nachmund Gauntlet, and the "bastion world" at it's far end.

 

The world of Vigilus.

 

Hmmm... it's suffering a bit of an invasion. A few Orks, some Genestealer Cultists, the Black Legion. Surely, the might of the Adeptus Astartes, bolstered by the Primaris Space Marines, will be enough to keep this world in the hands of the Imperium.

 

Well, maybe, but maybe not. We've seen (in other conflicts) that the Primaris Space Marines aren't quite as "perfect" as Cawl claims them to be. There are hints of flaws beneath the surface, and I fully expect that these will be exposed in due time. After all, the Galaxy is arguably more Chaos-tainted than it was during the Great Crusade, and Chaos managed to stake a claim on Horus even then. What could the Dark Powers do in this time period? Especially with all those systems consumed by the Great Rift? I'm sure that we'll see the Primaris Space Marines begin to falter.

 

So, I'll leave you with a hypothetical: what if the Black Legion succeeds in capturing Vigilus and corrupting it? It'd divide the Imperium into two, for real, handing the Primaris Space Marines a tangible defeat, a very real failure. I'd think this would force some soul-searching, mass hysteria, cults of doom, etc, in the Imperium... on the Terran side of the Great Rift. The Dark side, Imperium Nihilus, would collapse, except for the little enclaves and outposts. It's not like any help would be coming from the Imperium Sanctus on the other side of the Great Rift. All of our grim, gothic, bleak darkness could come back to the fore, as Guilliman and the Lords of Terra grapple with the ramifications of this; imagine the stories and battles that could come from an event like this. The Adeptus Astartes became Primaris Space Marines, and it wasn't enough.

 

----------

 

TL;DR: I think we're looking at the beginning of a slowly evolving narrative and we've only seen the beginnings of the trials of the Primaris Space Marines. Their flaws will be exposed and explored in future publications, it'll just take a while to get there. Given what happened to the Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar, I fully expect something bad to happen to the Primaris Space Marines.

 

I REALLY hope Chaos wins on Vigilus and the situation worsens for the Imperium. I really really do. I don't see it happening though. GW is still afraid to commit a real victory to anyone.

Damocles? The imperium "won" but ultimately the T'au got the planet back and re-build their whole army within an extremely short time, the death of the top Ethereal had no further implications and the burning gulf got snuffed out by the great rift so they are free to travel in that direction again.

Cadia? Chaos "won" but Abaddon got gravely wounded and had to sacrifice his only blackstone fortress and his gathered forces scattered immediately afterwards again to do their own thing ... oh and Guilliman returned with the Primaris so Chaos couldn't really cash in on their victory afterwards either.

Seriously, when was the last time a victory was truly a victory among the bigger events in 40k?

 

I agree.

 

I dont want the imperium to hold vigilus.

 

-------------------------------------------------

I'd be fine with Black legion, NIDS, or ORKS taking vigilus.

 

why?

 

With Mort, Magnus, Abaddon, and add Fulgrim in, as harrowing and attacking the IMperial side of the rift.

 

Robby is stuck on terra doing logistics, he cannot step away from it for a moment, or sectors would literally be lost. he is commanding hundreds of conflicts at any one moment.

THis puts Robby into a sour, desperate depressed mood. He loses ground day by day, inch by inch. if he would fight his brothers in the open then untold amounts of ground would be lost. he sees this as a losing effort, and is filled with despair internally.

 

Cawl, Astra militarum, Marines, whomever, are inventing tactics/weapons to fight the never born and xenos and traitors.

 

Then 1 of 2 Primarchs arrive.

 

DORN or RUSS. (this would ease the tension on robby and even give him some joy, but the 10k years have changed his brothers)

 

I vote RUSS, RUSS takes the fight to his brothers and assists robute in reclaiming and defending the imperial side.

new primaris troopers are developed, bullets run out, a power axe and chain saw blade lasts a lot longer than bullets against the never born.

 

but even with RUSS back, they are back to break even, taking ground here losing it there. and an occasional suicide supply run to nihulus but only ever occasionally hearing something back from nihulus

 

They also have no contact with imperium nihilus.

 

DORN shows up, then DORN will command a massive crusade through vigilus to reach secundus with resupplies incase any imperial is still alive.

 

Dorn orders the total fleets of black templars to merge into one, they lead it, introducing further melee cqc centric builds/tactics.

 

Then crusade their way through vigilus and reach the other side. to astounding and dire news.

 

THere are still imperial outposts. but tons of area is lost.

 

The lion is active using the rock as a massive FoB for all the imperial defenders. and its revealed hes been fighting other deamon primarchs not present.

 

and just when they get there.

 

TIAMET RISES. A aspect of the Hive mind is created at TIamet, NID super organism of primarch str in stature and power.

 

----

 

we now have multiple loyal primachs influencing primaris production, tactics and equipment.

 

----

 

I also think CORAX should arrive after the Primaris marines are starting to have serious flaws being generated and cawl cant figure it out.

imagine flaws thought not to be present in other chapters, like the ultra marines, suddenly having flaws, arrive BECAUSE of the primaris process.

 

 

No, that would basically be the same as happened with Cadia. Chaos got a major victory that immediately got lessened by the return of Guilliman and the release of the Primaris. If the Imperium loses on Vigilus just to have another Primarch return to lessen the blow by such a degree it wouldn't be a real defeat all over again. If another Primarch returns it should take a lot of time, like one or two other campaigns inbetween, so the Imperium actually feels like it is in deep :cuss after a defeat for once ... or to have the returning Primarch not have such big of an impact which would be lame and wouldn't sell well so that wouldn't happen anyway.

[Guest Triszin]

 

No, that would basically be the same as happened with Cadia. Chaos got a major victory that immediately got lessened by the return of Guilliman and the release of the Primaris. If the Imperium loses on Vigilus just to have another Primarch return to lessen the blow by such a degree it wouldn't be a real defeat all over again. If another Primarch returns it should take a lot of time, like one or two other campaigns inbetween, so the Imperium actually feels like it is in deep after a defeat for once ... or to have the returning Primarch not have such big of an impact which would be lame and wouldn't sell well so that wouldn't happen anyway.

 

the big thing I left out was time frame. Having dorn crusade through vigilus would be like 4 years form now.

 

and I agree about consequences.

 

heck, they could do FOrgeworlds that were mass producing 25% of the imperiums Rhinos were sacked by NIDS. and then use that as a reason to phase the RHINO out.

 

but I 1000% would love to see consequences.

[Brother Christopher]

Speaking for myself, I quite like to get invested in the lore of whatever army I happen to be playing. I play Black Templars specificly because of their lore, and how it appealed to me more than the other chapters. I enjoy the high moments of the chapter, as well as their defeats, and the odd quirks that might make them unappealing to other players. I'd rather not ride that train 85 percent of the way to the station, then jump off before it crashes. It'd be much better if the train never crashed in the first place.

 

I've seen the word 'whining' thrown around recently in a few different threads. So let me make it clear. Everything I write on this forum is meant to express my opinion on the state of game mechanics, lore, etc. I'm not going to snub other people for letting me know what they do and do not like in a public space specificly designed to have those discussions. When things happen in the game world that I find cool, I'm going to be there cheering with everyone else. When things happen that I do not find cool, I'm going to point out what I don't find cool about it, and hope that enough people do the same that it doesn't happen again. My words aren't 'Take it back, GW!' they're 'Let's try harder next time.'

 

There are people who are fond of the Primaris. Some like their design, others their lore, and still others are just happy that they offer a chance to kit bash traditional marines to appropriate sizes. That's great. They should buy those things and let GW know how cool they are. And while they do that, I'm going to avoid buying them and point out why. If it gets fixed, I'll be in the next wave. if it doesn't, I won't.

 

Anyway.

 

On the topic of lore, there seem to be three camps of people:

 

Those who have the ability to ignore sections of fluff and play how they want.

 

Those who can't ignore what they see as giant flaws, because they are all or nothing players. they can't love something half way.

 

Those who don't see what is happening as having flaws to ignore.

 

Hopefully something will happen with Vigilus, or maybe the next campaign book, to bridge that gap. As it stands, I doubt it. Vigilus is getting me more hyped for chaos than anything else. The elite sniper primaris units and new psychers don't mean much to me. I have the worrying feeling that as this story progresses, we're going to see Primaris move further into the forefront of every story.

 

That being said, there is great potential here for a sudden sharp turn. Primaris marines could turn out to be just as likely to switch to chaos, due to the trator genes used in their creation. A host of them suddenly switching sides could be what loses the war, and drives a bigger wedge between Primaris and their older brothers. Alternatively, they could turn out to be more unstable than anticipated. It could be that they are actually Thunder Warriors returned, and we learn just how dangerous they can be without Big E keeping them contained.

 

What I need, as a lover of the lore, is for Primaris to feel like less of a trump card. At this point it doesn't matter if the Imperium loses the fight, they'd have lost even faster without the Primaris. That has been made abundantly clear, and is why people are refering to them as Mary Sues. They are a pure, 100 percent positive across the board, story wise. The extra deaths that might happen from Marines being transformed doesn't make a dent in that impression, because they are being transformed into something better than a Space Marine, IE, a Primaris. The very fact that such a transformation is considered as an option helps to outline the issue. To dip a toe into tainted waters, that is also the problem I have with the Um. They too often feel like the trump card faction.

 

Throw some wrenches into the Primaris works and give me something to admire about them besides, 'They're better.' I haven't seen enough of that yet. Even with the published fiction.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. This post is well-put and very much in line with my own thoughts and feelings.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Primaris marines to me personally should of been an easier to mass produce but have less gene seed quirks or extra abilities as a space marine.

 

Like original space marines are the equivalent of spartan 2's whereas primaris are like spartan 4's. Just with generalised armour and extra musculature to try and make up for the gene seed and full body argumentation.

[FlamingDeth]

On another note, way earlier in the thread I had mentioned that I would have preferred it if Cawl just did the tech part and the biology and genetics was still the Emperor, with Cawl on a ten millennia quest to defrag a hard drive...I only recently actually got Dark Imperium and read through the little Primaris book in it, and it outright says that Robby gave Cawl the damaged data from his dad's research and experiments for the project, so I guess that's basically what happened! I at least infer from the text that on the geneseed side it was less Cawl developing new marines and more just piecing together Big E's latest model, which makes the whole thing easier to digest.

 

Still would have liked them to have developed Cawl more before having him unleash the Primaris.

[Bryan Blaire]

On another note, way earlier in the thread I had mentioned that I would have preferred it if Cawl just did the tech part and the biology and genetics was still the Emperor, with Cawl on a ten millennia quest to defrag a hard drive...I only recently actually got Dark Imperium and read through the little Primaris book in it, and it outright says that Robby gave Cawl the damaged data from his dad's research and experiments for the project, so I guess that's basically what happened! I at least infer from the text that on the geneseed side it was less Cawl developing new marines and more just piecing together Big E's latest model, which makes the whole thing easier to digest.

Yes, the text in the current Codex: Space Marines gives a poor view of how the Magnificat actually came into being vs. other texts, in that it says Cawl found the materials and genetic blueprints, and that he didn't know if the remainder of the organ had been deleted or the records damaged. That organ is actually directly from the Primarchs (which is what gives rise to the Primaris name - they are "partially Primarch", if I'm understanding it correctly), possibly with a variation to allow the half-organ to operate, and Cawl was basically piecing together the parts of the Primarch project that he could still get together (as if I recall correctly, he was still a junior member of). However, it was Guilliman that gave Cawl "the fragmentary genetic grimoires he salvaged from the Emperor's original experiments to aid in the task."

 

So Cawl had to piece together what he could, and possibly inserted some frog DNA for what he couldn't (and right now we are only touring the lab, but waiting to see whatever the Chaos 40K version of "life will find a way" will be), to generate the Primaris. All of that was only possible because he had originally been involved in the Emperor's experiments and creation of the Primarchs himself - he may even have been part of the group that developed the original Astartes pattern from the Primarchs as well (don't recall if that I said actually said anywhere).

 

I do think people harp on the "making a better version of the best the Emperor could do" idea, when this not what happened. The Primarchs are clearly "the best the Emperor could do" (and I'm not even convinced that is really true, they were just his first full completion of his work), the Space Marines are the mass-productions units that the Emperor could piece back together "in time" for the Great Crusade. The Primaris are still inferior to the Primarchs, it isn't like Cawl bettered the Primarchs, and he had thousands of years more time to work with and the Emperor's, and very likely his senior Biologis assistants', very own notes, and the best he could do was get to was the Primaris, who at least rules-wise (which admittedly isn't perfectly fluff mirroring) are a somewhat bare improvement over the standard Marine. Maybe that's what we should say more: "The Emperor accomplished the original Astartes in a bare fraction of the time it took Cawl to manage the Primaris improvements, even using the portions of the Emperor's works he had."

 

It would give a bit more depth to the work if it also mentioned "Cawl and his team, including some technical geniuses that had been discarded by other portions of the Mechanicus" (or "Cawl and his sub-persona who always works in the background" or some other crazy or more logical type stuff) as origins of some of this, but at the same time, texts other than the Codexes may in fact do that, or do so in the future, and I simply haven't read them yet.

 

But yes, I do just ignore some or do my own personal mental expansion of what GW writes a lot of the time so that it works better for me - no matter what, Cawl will always be the grandstanding "lead researcher/engineer" on the projects, his name registered as the first, but a large group of folk under him that did the work and even suggesting changes or solutions to setbacks that allowed for the developments to come to fruition, etc.

[Panzer]

The only genetic thing about Primaris that's actually Cawl is the Belisarian furnace, which is compared to the other organs a rather crude addition that sticks out like a sore thumb as it doesn't enhance the Primaris like the rest, it just gives them a big surge in power shortly before they die. It's very AdMech and not very Emperor design-wise. ^^

[Blindhamster]

The only genetic thing about Primaris that's actually Cawl is the Belisarian furnace, which is compared to the other organs a rather crude addition that sticks out like a sore thumb as it doesn't enhance the Primaris like the rest, it just gives them a big surge in power shortly before they die. It's very AdMech and not very Emperor design-wise. ^^

 

Feel like that should really have had a rule of some kind, perhaps something similar to the ancient ability to attack after being killed, but make it a stratagem that lasts for a round and affects all models with the primaris keyword.

[Ishagu]

 

 

The only genetic thing about Primaris that's actually Cawl is the Belisarian furnace, which is compared to the other organs a rather crude addition that sticks out like a sore thumb as it doesn't enhance the Primaris like the rest, it just gives them a big surge in power shortly before they die. It's very AdMech and not very Emperor design-wise. ^^

Feel like that should really have had a rule of some kind, perhaps something similar to the ancient ability to attack after being killed, but make it a stratagem that lasts for a round and affects all models with the primaris keyword.

It can apparently keep them alive too, even after sustaining massive injuries. I agree that it should be a rule of some kind also. Perhaps a Primaris down to 1 wound has a FNP save?

[Subtleknife]

 

 

 

The only genetic thing about Primaris that's actually Cawl is the Belisarian furnace, which is compared to the other organs a rather crude addition that sticks out like a sore thumb as it doesn't enhance the Primaris like the rest, it just gives them a big surge in power shortly before they die. It's very AdMech and not very Emperor design-wise. ^^

Feel like that should really have had a rule of some kind, perhaps something similar to the ancient ability to attack after being killed, but make it a stratagem that lasts for a round and affects all models with the primaris keyword.

It can apparently keep them alive too, even after sustaining massive injuries. I agree that it should be a rule of some kind also. Perhaps a Primaris down to 1 wound has a FNP save?

I was always under the impression that is why they had 2 wounds.

[Ishagu]

I assumed the extra wound and attack represented their superior physical attributes.

[Panzer]

GW usually just says they are more durable which could be the furnace, or the steel coated sinews or just due their bigger size in general. It's just not well explained why exactly they have a 2nd wound and it's just crunch anyway so it could change any time without the fluff changing at all.

[Cryptix]

I remember them saying the second wound is because of the furnace, but I don't remember where.