Alternatives to Belisarius Cawl solves all

[Closet Skeleton]

Legit question...if the Emp, an immortal supremely intelligent being with (I presume) an eidetic memory, lived through the DAoT...how come so much DAoT tech was lost. Shouldn't much of it be in the Emp's head?

 

The old first ed fluff that actually went into the Emperor made it pretty clear that he didn't have an eidetic memory.

 

'Emperor did everything' is much worse than 'Cawl does maybe a bit too much stuff'.

 

 

@ Mellow

 

Cawl needs at least a trilogy IMO

 

One for each brain.

[Indefragable]

Cawl as Steve Jobs.....  He's the idea man who has a brilliant staff that does all the real work while he gets the credit...  …. 

 

Cawl as Steve Jobs....hah!

 

Hidden Content

Warning: language.  https://youtu.be/E3s-qZsjK8I

[b1soul]

"'Emperor did everything' is much worse than 'Cawl does maybe a bit too much stuff'."

 

Not really...the Emperor is arguably the most intelligent and powerful being in 40K.

 

1ed talks about the Emp's memory capacity during the GC?

[Jareddm]

Rather than all of the new equipment being created by Cawl and his team, I feel there could've been more of a focus on the discovery of the Primaris tech's STCs, either during the Indomitus Crusade, or as STCs that the AdMech had for centuries but either didn't have means of scaling up production or feared chaos/xenos/AI corruption.  We know from a blurb that the Astraeus tank was from an STC the Minotaurs rediscovered on Perun Cross.  I could easily imagine the Redemptor Dreadnought STC being something the AdMech had discovered awhile ago, but that tests with Astartes burned them out far too quickly.

[Mellow]

Invention isn’t a problem as such. It’s not like they’re going to invent a way to conquer the Galaxy. I mean look at the Tau. They invent all the time and they still don’t win anything important.

[Guest Triszin]

Invention isn’t a problem as such. It’s not like they’re going to invent a way to conquer the Galaxy. I mean look at the Tau. They invent all the time and they still don’t win anything important.

but everything they do is " Perfect ".

 

- written by phil kelly*

[mc warhammer]

the emperor is set up as all powerful, so “he did it all” works from an in-universe perspective...but it’s not the most interesting take

[ProsperoStands]

Cawl would still be as old as he is, just as senile and unable to remember most of what he knew or how her learned it.

-The Primaris Project would be in regards to the new type of armors he has painstakingly created from STC data that would be used to enhance current Marines, same for the new weaponry. This equipment would b hard to manufacture though so normal marines would still be a thing.

-The Primaris marines in Stasis would have been a ghost legion formed by RG as a last resort, an Ace up his sleeve that would be better trained, better equipped, perhaps with a far different psycoconditioning then normal marines, but still the same template. Their geneseed is far more pure and they have the special neural hook ups to use the new armor.

-The new tanks, again STCs recovered and being built but the reserve was built over 10k years so while they have a lot, takes time to replace/make more.

-Rowboat still wakes up per the current fluff (I was actually pretty ok with all of that)

-The "Ultima Founding" is basically a reestablishment of pseudo Legions and done with purer geneseed, and possibly some traitor gene stock because why not?

[mc warhammer]

it's funny that RG is utterly rational, not prone to superstition at all but still so opposed to the use of traitor gene seed for primaris. i can imagine a few ways he's rationalised it, but i'd like to see BL come out with something regarding that

[Kinstryfe]

I have a few ways I think Cawl could be changed for the better, though I'm not sure some of them wouldn't be too much for the setting. In no particular order...

 

-Show how much of a network would be needed to do what he had done. Even with brains in jars and stuff, that level of development would likely have needed proverbial legions of underlings to accomplish all that was. That or give credit elsewhere for some of the accomplishments, via STCs that were discovered. Cawl could have finished the missing pieces and made them work, but have a starting point. It makes it a bit more believable.

-Similarly, make Cawl not the first Cawl. Ten thousand years or so is a long time, so how many times has the "grandfather's broom" paradox happened? Is this Cawl the same that Guilliman first met in any meaningful way?

-We know The Emperor wasn't infallable from his failure to reverse the butcher's nails. Cawl shouldn't be infallable either. Reveal problems with some of his tech. New plasma is even more dangerous to users over time, or the armour had to sacrifice shielding for movement and will kill a Primaris over a couple hundred years. Maybe the giant Dreadnaughts have an even more pronounced effect on the user's psyche for some reason. He can be really good at what he does, but shouldn't be perfect. Even the biggest current electronics makers can't stop cellphones from blowing up, so there's no way nuclear powered battle armour is perfect.

[mc warhammer]

i'm not too bothered by cawl at this point and i quite like what i'm reading of him in wolfsbane. yes, i am ducking all your rotten fruit

[DukeLeto69]

While it may have been explained in TGS campaign books and Dark Imperium (just started reading that, it is pretty dry so far) it just doesn't sit comfortably for me that Cawl has toiled away in secret for 10,000 years. How long did the Emp take to develop the Astartes? Yes the Emp is/was infinitely more powerful/intelligent but still...10,000 years!

[Closet Skeleton]

"'Emperor did everything' is much worse than 'Cawl does maybe a bit too much stuff'."

 

Not really...the Emperor is arguably the most intelligent and powerful being in 40K.

 

1ed talks about the Emp's memory capacity during the GC?

 

First ed talks about the Emperor having no memory what so ever of having fathered children, which implies that the Emperor doesn't have a super human memory to go with his immortality.

 

The Emperor is also the protagonist of how the original article where the Space marine organs are explained, that is, he has to have them explained to him. This is possibly the only article ever written from the Emperor's perspective.

 

This was the same edition where the Emperor was more powerful than he is in the latter fluff, since first ed made clear that he would have obliterated Horus instantly if he wasn't holding back for emotional reasons and that when the Emperor finally got serious the Chaos gods had to abandon Horus because the Emperor would have killed them if they were still lending their power to a dying Horus.

 

The Emperor is really powerful, but he also rules the galaxy through a massive propaganda campaign designed to make him the most important being in the galaxy. The whole reason the first ed take on the Emperor was abandoned is because the setting became more interesting when the Emperor was left ambiguous.

[Mellow]

I’m sure that originally He couldn’t tell where His children were because they were blanks. So He could not detect them. Obviously going on a Crusade looking for His warp spawned children was easier as I’m sure they show up on all sorts of radar.

 

Doesn’t really matter how powerful He was. He still failed to kill Horus in double quick time which if you look at with hindsight would have been the obvious choice. I mean if Horus was on Isstvan waiting for a trap He should have just done orbital bombardment to remove the threat. He never had a problem with removing others before.

 

Cawl is fine though. Hoping a novel will clear up a few points about him. Who cares if he used AI or whatever. I don’t. It adds a bit of risk to everything if he did. Or maybe he’s just really smart (10k years is a long time).

[Xisor]

While it may have been explained in TGS campaign books and Dark Imperium (just started reading that, it is pretty dry so far) it just doesn't sit comfortably for me that Cawl has toiled away in secret for 10,000 years. How long did the Emp take to develop the Astartes? Yes the Emp is/was infinitely more powerful/intelligent but still...10,000 years!

That would be a compelling twist...

 

The Emperor is the reckless loose-cannon maverick, Cawl is the meticulous, methodical, leader who oversees a stable, unholy-giant of an intricately complex enterprise over the course of millennia.

 

Not a secret conspiracy, but that Cawl did all this out in the open, (relatively) for the Mechanicus. He drew in expert help, rigorously field tested, managed expectations, delivered on time and under budget thanks to excellent work practices revealing unexpected benefits.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Cawl as Steve Jobs.....  He's the idea man who has a brilliant staff that does all the real work while he gets the credit...  …. 

 

Hey Brother Indefragable, thanks for the link. That was hilarious

 

Mostly I jest, but there's probably some truth to this Steve Jobs comparison I really didn't give Cawl much thought until b1soul came up with this interesting post Now that I have given it some thought I don't think I have a problem with Cawl as is.

 

He has after all been around for over 10k years and had access  to established technology and STC's. Like Sir Isaac Newton, he stands on the shoulders of giants and with the patronage of Roboutte Guilliman was able to bring his inventions forth without fear of censure or worse (more likely worse) from the Adeptus Mechanicus orthodoxy. Nothing he has created is truly revolutionary, merely evolutionary. With ten thousand years to work within, if he had been orthodox Mechanicus he would have likely had discovered an couple of handfuls of STC's and perhaps have ascended the political ladder of the AdMech to the position of Fabricator General (a position he still covets). But he was an innovator (and for that reason a heretic in the eyes of the AdMech) and as such came up with what he did. If I had ten thousand years on my hands, I'm pretty certain that even with my mediocre intelligence I could have picked up a few hobbies such as advanced degrees in several branches of engineering, biology, physics, medicine, amassed a sizable financial empire, and I might even finally learn to play the piano (although this last one is probably just wishful thinking).

 

Cawl is also very human (as much as a fully augmented Martian can be) and exhibits all the flaws one can associate with genius and power. He has an ego the size of Donald Trump's . And even though his own patron, Big Bobby G (the only person that stands between him and the AdMech that would see him as a heretic and would have him executed and rendered down for spare parts and rare metals) refuses to support him, he still has pretentions to the position of Fabricator General.

 

I suppose BL could publish a novel or series on Cawl and his rise. But I'm not sure even a novella would be that interesting to read.... perhaps a lengthy section in the next edition of the Mechanicus codex would suffice

[Felix Antipodes]

Couldn't have put it better if I tried @BrotherLunkhead. In my headcanon The Cawl/Jobs analogy is spot on and there is an immense organisation working under his direction. He has had 10000 years to put it together. For all we know he is not just a heratik but THE heretik, the guiding light and inspiration for that cult of progress hidden within the Mechanicus.

 

I look forward to seeing where they take him (and his organisation )

[Mellow]

I don’t understand how he has even survived for 10,000 years. Even a brain in a jar fed by mechanical parts would fail eventually.

[Brother Lunkhead]

That's a very intriguing idea you have there Brother Felix Cawl as THE heretic and leader of THE cult of progress within the Mechanicum. That's an idea worth exploring..... perhaps a book or three.

 

Brother Mellow, as far as Cawl surviving ten thousand year, it's quite simple.....Sci Fi Science and Mechanicum Hocus Pocus No matter who's writing, in this genre there are always plot elements that don't bear up to close scrutiny. As long as they aren't disruptive or silly (well...as long as they aren't too silly) and move the story on, its best not to examine them too closely.

[Mellow]

Maybe he’s just figured out how to transfer his consciousness to a computer matrix. Making him an AI of sorts. Wouldn’t that be just abominable

[b1soul]

Cawl is at least 90% machine

 

If any being could survive 10,000 years, it would be heavily modified Mechanicus priests. However, I am surprised that Cawl is apparently the only one who is that old.

[Xisor]

However, I am surprised that Cawl is apparently the only one who is that old.

Is that substantiated, or are you inferring backwards from Cawl being the only such being currently mentioned?

 

Also, re:Hand of Darkness/Eye of Midnight:

Moriana is that old.

[b1soul]

Apparently...as in he appears to be the only 10k old tech priest based on no other mention

[Brother Tyler]

This topic isn't a "Black Library" topic. It's about the introduction of the Primaris Marines. So I've moved it to the Adeptus Astartes category.

[Wargamer]

Break Cawl into about a hundred different characters, and have evidence of their efforts sprinkled through the setting's ten thousand year history, and then it works. Well, except maybe for the Primaris appearing out of nowhere. That requires a bit more effort.

 

Major changes I'd put in:

 

• Make a whole new sect of the Cult Mechanicus who are running around the universe looking for something. They won't tell anyone what or why. Cawl, if he has to stay, is a part of this sect.
• Reference that whenever really advanced tech is discovered, the Cult goes after it. Sometimes they succeed and this usually results in the tech never being seen again. Other times, the Cult fails and the tech winds up in mainstream usage.
• Explicitly reference the Cult pursuing advanced anti-grav, information on past attempts to "enhance" the Astartes, etc.
• Have them clash with Fabius Bile. A lot. Like, twice a week for a war over whose abominations are ruining 40K more.
• Some time around M36, start adding references that these guys are seen fighting alongside Astartes of unknown origin. Said Astartes sometimes appear to be a bit... odd (some might spontaneously explode or something).
• As we get closer and closer to M41, keep ramping up the notions that these guys are stockpiling a lot of hardware - entire battleships, foundry vessels and enough wargear to outfit a Chapter are requested, delivered to the Cult and promptly vanish.
• At the same time, the sightings of their new Astartes, complete with new wargear, increase. The Cult does not like this, perhaps going so far as to actually kill other Imperial forces to try and keep their nature secret.
• When Guilliman finally returns, we get the payoff - these guys have been following his orders for Ten Thousand years. However, because he specified secrecy, and not to reveal these new forces without his say-so, they just quietly built a Legion and kept it secret beyond essential field trials.