Alternatives to Belisarius Cawl solves all

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks Brother Tyler for the reminder ……. Back on topic.....

 

As I said earlier, I don't really have a problem with Cawl the way his presented or for that matter the way the Primaris were introduced, or how RG was revived.

 

For sure there is a huge dollop of Eldar (or whateverthe they are called these days) handwavium involved in the resurrection of RG. But, Cawl being the free thinking, free luvin' heretic that he is, involving the Eldar isn't too far out of left field and it's a convenient way of introducing lots of new characters and intertwining plot lines. Handwavium yes  but lazy writing, no 

 

Primaris introduction on the other hand is I think exactly opposite. Handwavium, no ….. lazy writing, yes RG is resurrected and introduces the party to his new boys, the Primaris and before you can blink and say "frimmin on the jimjam" one hundred years has gone by, the Indomitus Crusade is over, and Primaris are being passed out to Space Marine chapters like free tickets to the State Fair. There is so much interesting stuff that could/should have been....

 

Ultimately it's not what is written that I have a problem with, its what's not written. There's a huge hole in the story that needs to be filled in, and the tragedy of it I think is that its not going to happen. Any technical details can probably be filled into the fluff pages of the next SM Codex, but all the military, political, and personal conflict that comes with it, that needs story time.

[Felix Antipodes]

Fingers crossed we will get (at least) some of those plot holes filled in the Conquests book series, which are all supposed to be set around the early days of the Primaris integration.

[Ishagu]

I have absolutely no issue with Cawl. People don't like the fact that he's a new, non-established character.

 

The truth is that the AdMech have very little representation until recently. Heck until the Watchers of the Throne novel was released we didn't even know the name of the Fabricator General.

 

Cawl has his own Arc Mechanicus and a whole army of assistants, servants and warriors under his command. He's a big deal, and it seems sudden because up until now there were no other characters to influence the setting from the Mechanicus.

 

There are probably more tech priests like him but they wouldn't advertise their beliefs. Also, why do people think that what Cawl does should be seen as Heresy? He has a 10k year old mandate from the Lord Commander of the Imperium issued shortly after the Heresy took place, something that would be very hard to oppose.

[Wargamer]

I have absolutely no issue with Cawl. People don't like the fact that he's a new, non-established character.

 

The truth is that the AdMech have very little representation until recently. Heck until the Watchers of the Throne novel was released we didn't even know the name of the Fabricator General.

 

Cawl has his own Arc Mechanicus and a whole army of assistants, servants and warriors under his command. He's a big deal, and it seems sudden because up until now there were no other characters to influence the setting from the Mechanicus.

 

There are probably more tech priests like him but they wouldn't advertise their beliefs. Also, why do people think that what Cawl does should be seen as Heresy? He has a 10k year old mandate from the Lord Commander of the Imperium issued shortly after the Heresy took place, something that would be very hard to oppose.

It's the fact he didn't have that mandate until twenty minutes ago. Such a major change to the setting coming out of left field is the problem.

 

I think it can be best explained using Astartes flyers:

 

The Storm Eagle has always been there - but it's a support craft that comes in after the poster children (Thunderhawks and Drop Pods) and generally loiters just off camera. That explains why we've never seen it before.

 

The Storm Raven has always been there and is a frontline craft acting as a speartip of every Astartes attack force in the history of the Imperium. The reason we never noticed before is... because we just made it up.

 

See why the latter is a problem, but the former isn't?

[Kallas]

I have absolutely no issue with Cawl.

Yes, we know :rolleyes:

 

People don't like the fact that he's a new, non-established character.

Has some truth, but it's not simply that he's new, it's that he's a complete Deus Ex Machina device/a Mary Sue, which is totally uninteresting - or at the very least he appears this way if one doesn't have 400,000,000 hours to spend reading through every Black Library release looking for every snippet of information.

 

Also, why do people think that what Cawl does should be seen as Heresy? He has a 10k year old mandate from the Lord Commander of the Imperium issued shortly after the Heresy took place, something that would be very hard to oppose.

He has a secret mandate, that's been keep secret for 10,000 years. He might have the mandate, but since no-one else knows about it that doesn't really matter. Times and beliefs have changed and know what he's doing would be considered heresy. It's essentially like any kind of material from the past: slavery was the norm back 300 years ago, but now it is utterly contemptible and trying to suggest utilising slavery is going to very quickly turn people against you; and that's after a mere three centuries, let alone ten millenia.

[Ishagu]

So what would you prefer? Cawl, a singular maverick with power in the Mechanicus or a complete reversal of their dogma across the board?

 

The setting is moving forward, new tech, new stuff, new units for the tabletop. Not doing so puts GW into a narrative dead end, rehashing the same things over and over again and limiting them in term of unit design.

You're choosing to hold on to aspects of the established lore that whilst interesting, are not conducive to an evolving setting. It's not standing still anymore.

 

As for the mandate, seeing as Rogue Traders have them - in some cases sighed by the Emperor - and it grants them permission to basically do anything with anyone, it's hardly a stretch that Cawl would be allowed the same privileges.

[Blindhamster]

Cawl is "fine" he could have been introduced better with a longer build up, but he serves the purpose required. I wouldn't describe him as a mary sue.

He definitely had an element of deus ex machina about his introduction, but they probably did need to establish a way to bring guilliman back and if anyone was going to do it, it makes sense to be someone from the adeptus mechanicus. Likewise, the introduction of the primaris makes sense to have been done via the adeptus mechanicus too, they are supposed to. I know people love fabius bile (I enjoy him as a villain too tbh) but it makes sense to me that it would be someone from the biologicus sect of the admech that worked out improved astartes first.

Adeptus Astartes are not and never have been perfect creations created to the height of what the emperor could create, what they were, was exactly what he needed them to be, no more, no less.

Guilliman decided that the imperium needed something "more" and it took Cawl millennia to achieve what corax did in months.

Really the only thing thats an issue with Cawl, is the same thing that is an issue with Primaris - they're comparatively new, and lack the fleshed out detail that older lore has, but its unrealistic to expect new introductions to the setting to suddenly have as well developed and ingrained lore.

Much like my post in the primaris thread - its new, not necessarily bad, but definitely in need of expansion and explanation. I think we'll see more of cawl in HH books going forward now honestly, I also think the plethora of primaris related books due over the next few months (I counted 4 I think) will likely help expand them too.

[Wargamer]

So what would you prefer? Cawl, a singular maverick with power in the Mechanicus or a complete reversal of their dogma across the board?

 

The setting is moving forward, new tech, new stuff, new units for the tabletop. Not doing so puts GW into a narrative dead end, rehashing the same things over and over again and limiting them in term of unit design.

You're choosing to hold on to aspects of the established lore that whilst interesting, are not conducive to an evolving setting. It's not standing still anymore.

 

As for the mandate, seeing as Rogue Traders have them - in some cases sighed by the Emperor - and it grants them permission to basically do anything with anyone, it's hardly a stretch that Cawl would be allowed the same privileges.

The setting always had the option to move forward - by rediscovering lost tech, or lost worlds, or some other variation thereof. Hell, Battlefleet Gothic outright stated that the setting moved on not due to the usual "we forgot how to make a screwdriver" nonsense, but due to changes in Imperial Navy doctrine! 

 

By all accounts, Cawl has just invented this stuff and hid it in a box for ten thousand years. That's a terrible way to advance the plot.

[Ishagu]

Hiding tech is hardly unusual for anyone in the AdMech lol

 

Without Guilliman's support it would have probably been impossible for him to come forward.

[Wargamer]

Nah, I don't buy that. Even in an organisation as supposedly rigid and unchanging as the Adeptus Mechanicus there are variations, shifts in focus and even outright warfare over what is and is not sanctified behaviour. Inquisitor had a Techpriest from Stygies VIII who was using Necron phase technology; if they can get away with that, they can get away with giving Astartes back their grav-tanks.

[Ishagu]

He had the authorisation of the Lord Commander of the Imperium. No one in the Mechanicus could sanction him.

 

Also, we can now have units specifically designed to battle Necrons, Tau, Tyranid - stuff that there wouldn't be old technology for as they weren't around during the dark age. The new weapons can be designed to battle the current threats.

 

On the tabletop GW can expand the range in new ways, it's what it comes down to and it's going to be very exciting for hobbyists.

[Wargamer]

But they could have done that anyway.

 

The Marauder Destroyer was developed during the Third War of Armageddon because the Imperium needed a bomber, but the regular Marauder was being torn apart by Ork interceptors. The solution? Refit it into a ground attack gunship that operates below the Ork auspex. Innovation!

 

Land Raider Redeemer? Some pyromaniac really needed to burn people, but needed a tank that could survive long enough to get into flamer range. Innovation!

 

This has always been here. We've had years and years of lore stating there is often a big gulf between what the Cult Mechanicus says must be done and what is done on the ground by people whose lives depend on their tech winning the day. The Predator Annihilator is a classic example - a tank that was used for 900 years before the AdMech gave up and agreed it was "official".

 

As I have said, and will always say - Cawl wasn't needed, and was arguably the worst way to implement the changes GW wanted to make.

[Dracos]

Cawl is "fine" he could have been introduced better with a longer build up, but he serves the purpose required. I wouldn't describe him as a mary sue.

He definitely had an element of deus ex machina about his introduction, but they probably did need to establish a way to bring guilliman back and if anyone was going to do it, it makes sense to be someone from the adeptus mechanicus. Likewise, the introduction of the primaris makes sense to have been done via the adeptus mechanicus too, they are supposed to. I know people love fabius bile (I enjoy him as a villain too tbh) but it makes sense to me that it would be someone from the biologicus sect of the admech that worked out improved astartes first.

Adeptus Astartes are not and never have been perfect creations created to the height of what the emperor could create, what they were, was exactly what he needed them to be, no more, no less.

Guilliman decided that the imperium needed something "more" and it took Cawl millennia to achieve what corax did in months.

Really the only thing thats an issue with Cawl, is the same thing that is an issue with Primaris - they're comparatively new, and lack the fleshed out detail that older lore has, but its unrealistic to expect new introductions to the setting to suddenly have as well developed and ingrained lore.

Much like my post in the primaris thread - its new, not necessarily bad, but definitely in need of expansion and explanation. I think we'll see more of cawl in HH books going forward now honestly, I also think the plethora of primaris related books due over the next few months (I counted 4 I think) will likely help expand them too.

Quoted because I can only like it once :(

 

In different manner says much of what Ishagu does and I agree with both. Its only been a year-ish since the Primaris were introduced. Give GW a minute to get the right authors and right stories into the lore. It’s a modeling company that plays at role-playing and wargames. Introducing models is always going to be their first priority. It’s a shame they didn’t introduce Cawl in the Heresy books in some form, but until the Emperor’s death RG likely wouldn’t had began to think about the need for Primaris and Cawl would have been a shiny nobody of a coghead anyway. I look forward to reading about a young Cawl being analyzed and chosen by a Primarch known for his intellectual abilities for this project in one of the books coming up. Either as a flashback or otherwise.

[Robbienw]

They've been developing the Primaris for at least 2 years before they were released.  They've been out over a year.  Plenty of time to get the 'right authors' and 'right stories' into the lore already.

[Kallas]

On the tabletop GW can expand the range in new ways, it's what it comes down to and it's going to be very exciting for hobbyists.

Is it? Thing is, they could do that kind of thing already, as Wargamer already explained. This method is clunky, poorly executed and heavy handed when it comes to the lore. There's no reason why they couldn't have reconciled the lore issues in the same timeframe (ie, write better initial lore!)

[Dracos]

They've been developing the Primaris for at least 2 years before they were released.  They've been out over a year.  Plenty of time to get the 'right authors' and 'right stories' into the lore already.

I understand but respectfully disagree considering most authors take at least a year often two to right a novel even in universes they are familiar with. This also assumes these authors don’t have prior commitments and or projects in the works. At least if you don’t want sub par material.

[Ishagu]

But they could have done that anyway.

 

The Marauder Destroyer was developed during the Third War of Armageddon because the Imperium needed a bomber, but the regular Marauder was being torn apart by Ork interceptors. The solution? Refit it into a ground attack gunship that operates below the Ork auspex. Innovation!

 

Land Raider Redeemer? Some pyromaniac really needed to burn people, but needed a tank that could survive long enough to get into flamer range. Innovation!

 

This has always been here. We've had years and years of lore stating there is often a big gulf between what the Cult Mechanicus says must be done and what is done on the ground by people whose lives depend on their tech winning the day. The Predator Annihilator is a classic example - a tank that was used for 900 years before the AdMech gave up and agreed it was "official".

 

As I have said, and will always say - Cawl wasn't needed, and was arguably the worst way to implement the changes GW wanted to make.

You're asking for the same stuff but different weapon options. I never want to see another Rhino chassis variant or any more Landraiders, personally. GW can create AMAZING models, and I don't want them to be restricted to 20+ yr old design variations.

[Brother Casman]

Awww, I like Rhinos...  I like the uniformity they have on the table.

[Robbienw]

Rhinos are a design classic that will never go away.  Its also possible we may see a new sisters variant in 2019/2020.

[Ishagu]

I'd rather see all new and unique Sister vehicles as well.

 

When I look at kits like the Wraithknight, Castellan Knight, Redemptor Dread, and then back to a Rhino I cringe slightly. GW are so much better now than they were when the Rhinos were conceived, I would be perfectly happy not to see any new variants of the old vehicles. Ever.

 

I don't understand why anyone would want to stick to the same looking vehicles, over and over, which by the way now look positively tiny when compared to other transports for other armies. I was so happy to see the FW Astraeus tank. I think it was too big as a kit, and over-costed in points, but I loved the new design and it wasn't like any prior Astartes vehicle.

[Blindhamster]

They've been developing the Primaris for at least 2 years before they were released.  They've been out over a year.  Plenty of time to get the 'right authors' and 'right stories' into the lore already.

 

We've seen a couple of novels that have helped expand on how they fit into things, loosely or in more detail, as noted already, there is Blood of Iax,

Space Marine Conquests: Of Honour and Iron and Dark Imperium Plague War due out in the next couple of months, all of which seem to have one or more primaris protagonists, meaning we'll likely learn some more about how they fit into the setting. I imagine plague war may well cover some more on cawl as well seeing as dark imperium did.

I don't think we'll see true alternatives to cawl, but i could totally see the fact cawl is a gestalt entity being expanded on, perhaps one of his brains belonged to the priest from the HH raven guard books? who knows, time will tell.

[Ishagu]

I can't wait for Honour and Iron and Plague War. Been expecting the Dark Imperium sequel for some time.

[Deafbok]

Maybe he’s just figured out how to transfer his consciousness to a computer matrix. Making him an AI of sorts. Wouldn’t that be just abominable

"What began as a conflict over the transfer of consciousness from flesh to machine escalated into a war that has decimated over a million worlds. The CORE and the ARM have all but exhausted the resources of a gala-"

 

Oh, wait. Wrong universe!

 

Some really cool ideas here that would actually validate current fluff if they were pulled out as surprises - I particularly like amalgamation-Cawl and the legion-of-support concepts

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

But they could have done that anyway.

 

The Marauder Destroyer was developed during the Third War of Armageddon because the Imperium needed a bomber, but the regular Marauder was being torn apart by Ork interceptors. The solution? Refit it into a ground attack gunship that operates below the Ork auspex. Innovation!

 

Land Raider Redeemer? Some pyromaniac really needed to burn people, but needed a tank that could survive long enough to get into flamer range. Innovation!

 

This has always been here. We've had years and years of lore stating there is often a big gulf between what the Cult Mechanicus says must be done and what is done on the ground by people whose lives depend on their tech winning the day. The Predator Annihilator is a classic example - a tank that was used for 900 years before the AdMech gave up and agreed it was "official".

 

As I have said, and will always say - Cawl wasn't needed, and was arguably the worst way to implement the changes GW wanted to make.

You're asking for the same stuff but different weapon options. I never want to see another Rhino chassis variant or any more Landraiders, personally. GW can create AMAZING models, and I don't want them to be restricted to 20+ yr old design variations.

 

 

I think Brother Ishagu has a point and I think everything new (like it or not) will be post old guard designs..... and Cawl will have his fingers in it (like him or not). Personally, I hope the Rhinos and Land Raiders stay in production for a while as I still have many OG Marine projects to finish up I think any new releases from here on in will be Primaris related. On that line of thinking, in order of priority what vehicles would everyone like to see next? Me... I would like to see Primaris Drop Pods (along with stats that make the DP useable again), Rhino-type (id est cheaper transport), and Dreadnought DP's (as you may have guessed, I like drop pods).

 

Brother Wargamer does make an excellent point about development of new vehicle variants out of necessity that the AdMech would normally not approve of but eventually relents to  . But Cawl and his crew are not making variants with existing tech and components. The are making evolutionary developments (Primaris especially). A valid argument can be made that much of the other tech coming out of CawlLabs is from newly discovered or previously hidden STC technology. Still, it is ALL outside of AdMech orthodoxy and Cawl could not have done any of it without RG's patronage.

[Robbienw]

I don't understand why anyone would want to stick to the same looking vehicles, over and over, which by the way now look positively tiny when compared to other transports for other armies. I was so happy to see the FW Astraeus tank. I think it was too big as a kit, and over-costed in points, but I loved the new design and it wasn't like any prior Astartes vehicle.

It is because they are a design classic. Nothing can beat the utilitarian military look and adaptability of the rhino. I’m not personally after more variants of it; I agree there are enough. But when the time comes and the mold wears out I want a new update.

 

As for the size, ever was it thus for space marine vehicles. The repulsor continues this trend by being way too small to fit 10 intercessors or helblasters in.

 

As for the Astreaus, I laughed when I first saw it. It is indeed not like a space marine vehicle, it looks like a Star Wars imperial vehicle, or a human tank from one of several video games. But it does have cool fluff pertinent to this thread; cawl didn’t build it out of nowhere, it was an STC recovered by the minoutaurs to which he refitted his repulsor plates and some weapons.