Alternatives to Belisarius Cawl solves all

[Kallas]

To Callan:

 

But we don't know that Cawl is just one dude. Remember he controls large portions of Mars, has split his mind into multiple copies, etc, etc. He probably has an army of Scribes and tech priests at his command, they simply haven't been named. At any one time there are probably 10 Cawl's - each in charge of projects worked on by thousands.

 

It was always going to be one individual, a few at best doing this. The Mechanicus has regressed and become technologically repressive. I imagine their outlook will gradually change as Cawl gains more influence. He's probably the 2nd or 3rd most powerful man in the Mechanicus as is.

I know that only hearing about him in the last 2 years seems cheap but until recently we didn't even have the name of the Fabricator general and 99% of people still can't name him.

 

Yeah, uh...what? We don't know that Cawl is just one dude? "It could be that Cawl is more than one guy, so we shouldn't judge him based on being one guy!" How about we look at what we have (ie, no indication that Cawl is actually more than one guy: he might be a gestalt entity, but we have no reason to actually believe he's a multi-bodied being) and judge based on that, rather than making up some :cuss out of whole cloth to try and make him more acceptable.

 

He likely does have a whole heap of minions working overtime to make his stuff come to fruition. It sure would be nice to have that more in focus rather than assumed. One of the issues with Cawl and the Primaris is that it is far too heavily "Cawl did this awesome thing, and fixed aaaaaall of the Imperiums problems, yaaaaay!" That is further compounded with what you mentioned: he's been dropped in without fanfare to basically be this super, mega genius that essentially doesn't fail. That is cheap. Could it have been done over time to make it less grating? Maybe, but that's not the whole issue, it's that it's basically without depth and shading: Cawl is basically perfect, and that's not really fitting. Even Guilliman, love him or hate him, has substantial foibles and characterisation: he's a great thinker, but he's fundamentally human and you can relate to his thought processes and flaws.

[Ishagu]

Cawl literally has copied his brain multiple times and is in multiple places at once, and I don't mean the Cawl Inferior AI on Guilliman's flagship.

He can no longer be considered an individual entity - that's actually part of the lore. And yes, it's borderline techo-heresy lol

[Kallas]

Cawl literally has copied his brain multiple times and is in multiple places at once, and I don't mean the Cawl Inferior AI on Guilliman's flagship.

He can no longer be considered an individual entity - that's actually part of the lore.

 

Fair enough. Still dumb  (Cawl, not you!)

 

And yes, it's borderline techo-heresy lol

 

Pretty sure that's not 'borderline'! As has been brought up in other Primaris conversations, Cawl has done things that are more than questionable; he's been practising actively heretical methods. He might be 10,000 years old, but that's like saying a person who grew up in a slave-owning society should be allowed to keep their slaves, even though the society has moved on - that's not how it works: he's still against the way the Imperium works now, even if those practices didn't used to be herectical.

Cawl literally has copied his brain multiple times and is in multiple places at once, and I don't mean the Cawl Inferior AI on Guilliman's flagship.

He can no longer be considered an individual entity - that's actually part of the lore. And yes, it's borderline techo-heresy lol

[Brother Lunkhead]

Once again, Cawl IS the Steve Jobs of the 40Kverse I'd be pretty disappointed in myself if given 10k years I couldn't put together a tech-genius heavy team like Cawl must have to solve all those pesky problems that Big Booby G gave him.

 

      Cawl steps into one of his many labs and yells, "I don't hear any thinkin' going on in here!!! GET TO WORK!!!"*

 

* Thank you Bill Burr for that bit of inspiration

[Morovir]

I think that a good way of reconciling some of the problem would be if Guilliman retrieves the untainted data that the Alpha Legion stole from the Raven Guard during the fighting on Eskrandor, and that then is given to Cawl to work on, as it gives him a firm basis from which to improve the current Space Marines.

[Blindhamster]

If he had that untainted data, primaris would need to be even better than they are.

 

The ones in the heresy novel are made in a matter of days or weeks instead of year to years. They learned quicker, were faster and stronger and generally better in every way.

 

But getting access to the same notes corax and the priest had would work, that would effectively mean he doesn't manage to achieve what they did in a short period of time because corax had the added benefit of psychicly imparted knowledge from big e.

[b1soul]

Could you guys remind me who was the genius behind the Raptor project and why was it not used earlier?

[SillyDreadnought]

Delete Cawl. Problem solved.

[Sete]

Could you guys remind me who was the genius behind the Raptor project and why was it not used earlier?

The Emperor? And the Emperor?

[Sete]

Also my 2 cents on this.

Guilliman reaches Terra, meets Emps, Emps uses psychic shenanigans to implant on Guilliman new armour mark and gene seed restoration shenanigans, Guilliman goes to Mars and works with admehc to make that Emps vision true.

New armour mark and purer gene seed= those marines with 2 wounds.

 

Would avoid several things.

Cawl single handedly having hundreds of thousands of marines on a fridge.

Guilliman knowing that in the far future marines would not be enough to old the chaos tide, (Matt ward please less spiritual Liege)yet still implementating the codex severely limiting said marines. Get your :cuss togheter Guilliman, it's one thing or the other.

[b1soul]

Why didn't the Emperor implement Raptors...just bizarre

[Xisor]

Of all the observations, I have to salute the "Marines are 0.8, Primaris are 1.0 observation." Asding the caveat that it's "good enough", and was all secondary to/offshoot from the Primarchs project (which I like itself was secondary to what the emperor did right after handing seniority over to the office intern, Cawl, to tidy things up - he went off to construct the Astronomican and start studying aurelian ergonometry.)

 

I hope that gets reinforced somewhere down the line, when the distinction between Intercessors and Tactical Squads is just outright obliterated.

 

E.g. on tabletop, the distinction between MkII-MkX armour is dropped, the bizarre array of boltguns is returned to a simple "bolt gun" with a single general profile (rapid fire 1,24",-1,1 would suit me fine). Shift tactical/dev/assault/stern guard/vanguard to Web Exlusive and now you don't even need a sensibly distinct datasheet. Just Intercessor with Missile Launcher. Hellblaster with lascannon... etc. Blend them.

 

It'd also allow, narratively, the generational divide to be sensibly messy.

 

Somehow I think that blending would also take some of the narrative edge off things. Bring you back to a sensible world where Cawl's efforts aren't entirely easily distinguished, that a lot of it is down to subtlety, or paying attention, or is obscured by rival stories told by, well, rivals.

[Jackalwolf]

I've always been of the opinion that Primaris Marines are exactly what their name suggests: Version 1.0. Classic Marines were Version 0.8 or so. When the Primarchs were taken by that Chaos storm, the Emperor suddenly had neither the time nor the resources to finish developing the gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, so he just deployed them as-is, figured they were good enough for now, and got on with more pressing concerns, like the Crusade and the Imperial Webway project. The idea that Cawl substantially improved on the Space Marines is based on a) how he managed to actually implement the design notes, and b) his own egomania. Though maybe he did contribute a bit - the Emperor never considered himself a god, meaning that in his opinion, the efforts of mortals aren't useless. And hey, maybe the Emperor Himself managed to put his ethereal thumb on the scales, because He wants the project to succeed...

 

I do, however, wish their introduction was a bit more dramatic. It has a ton of story potential, but it all seems glossed over. The directive from GW seems to be to introduce the basis for these new Marine models and move right along. I think that's a mistake. If there was a bit more conflict in-character over it, I feel like this debate would resolve itself. Instead, it seems like the issue remains largely unaddressed. At least until it's been revealed that Cawl has been working with traitor gene-seed...

 

As for the appearance conversation, I love the look of the Primaris. I think that the Mk X Tacticus armor has relatively sleek, elegant lines, and it appeals to me. The Gravis armor compares well to the Terminator armor in the same way.

This is gold.

[Sete]

Comparing terminator to gravis is comparing chocolate to mud.

[slitth]

I would change Cawl focus to be only amour and weaponry that are base a little too much questionable sources.

As such most of his designs are not approved by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Do to his accidental role in Guilliman's return, some of this designs find favour with the Primarch.

One of his designs it the new power armour that improves the marines survivability more than any other design.

The armour has also the added benefit of being easy to manufacture.

Later it is show that the armour has short life time and is unreliable in long campaigns.

This problem can only be overcome by replacing the armour completely or using older models to provide the need replacement parts.

This cause most veterans to use their old amour.

 

The primaris space marine are never made and the Indomitus Crusade is conducted with a force of "normal" space marines.

They are created by depleting most of the gene-seed tides that was stored and at an accelerated rate.

Because of the accelerated rate of creation, then force suffers a high casualty rate in the beginning of the Indomitus Crusade.

Yet the beleaguered chapters are reinforced and the imperium is better defend now that is was before the fall of Cadia

 

But all is not well, with the gene-seed reserves depleted, the enemy will never get a better chance to wipe out the loyalist marines.

And Guilliman fear that his fallen brother will return to make use of this opportunity to settle the score one and for all.

[Robbienw]

That’s pretty good slith

[Ishagu]

Nah I don't like it at all.

 

The lore is established now. I suggest you read some of the books involving Cawl.

[slitth]

Well the problem with Cawl is timing and presentation.

 

Having every do Cawl is overkill. All your eggs is one basket deal.

The more he does bigger the problem becomes.

 

If he just make some of the armour and weaponry, that fine.

Having him be the project leader of the primaris project, that fine to.

Anything else that it's too much.

 

And then there is the timing.

"oh we are gonna lose if we don't have a grand army, let me just check my basement."

"We are in luck I had a grand army tucked away in the corner. To bad I didn't think about it before going to Cadia"

 

And now the less stupit version.

"For 100 year I, Belisarius Cawl on the behest of the high lords of Terra, have lead the primaris project.

With the help of the finest minds in the Imperium and the might of Mars, we have created the next step in the Astartes evolution.

The Primaris.

Tomorrow we send out a legion of Primaris to Cadia, and from Cadia we will use the xenos to deprive the traitors of their lair.

So will the Indomitus Crusade begins and the traitors legion end."

 

This is follow up by a massive screw up and the fall of Cadia. The return of Guilliman and the new direction of the Indomitus Crusade.

[Ishagu]

Cawl's primary expertise is Biology.

 

The more books I've read the happier I am. I don't want any changes, I suggest you read more BL novels.

[Robbienw]

Nah I don't like it at all.

 

The lore is established now. I suggest you read some of the books involving Cawl.

He’s offering an alternative, he’s not saying the lore isn’t established. I suggest you chill out :lol

[Ishagu]

I'm chilled. I'm merely dismissing the alternative as it's inferior and unnecessary.

[Robbienw]

I'm chilled. I'm merely dismissing the alternative as it's inferior and unnecessary.

I’m sure slitth will be devastated to know his alternative has been dismissed by a being of such import :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ishagu]

He can think whatever he wants.

[Sete]

I'm chilled. I'm merely dismissing the alternative as it's inferior and unnecessary.

Kinda like all the Primaris lore so far. ;)

[slitth]

He can think whatever he wants.

 

Just wait for the next book.

Belisarius Cawl will ask Guilliman to bend down.

And then he will very softly whisper "Hydra Dominatus"

 

And now back to the topic at hand.

Yes, we can not change to lore, and now I not asking that the lore change.

But I am disappointed with the bad deus ex machina start of the primaris.

And I am not a fan of the separating of primaris and none-primaris.

The fact that primaris can use a Rhino is just pure "the codex astartes does support this action"

 

But it seems to be getting better.