Alternatives to Belisarius Cawl solves all

[Xisor]

Focusing the concept of Primaris as a bureaucratic distinction certainly has it's merits. (It sounds like how ADB has dealt with it in SotE, but I might have misinterpreted that.)

 

And, fortunately, a lot of 'The Gathering Storm' is written in Codex-y Just So style, so it is easily overturned or flipped or adjusted as time marches on. (Not without any issue, but it is easily set aside. I'm sure everyone remembers what happened with the Phalanx's TGS escapades...)

 

---

 

With Robbie's Blood of Iax forthcoming, him being a man of history, so to speak, - I'm keen to see how he'll have wrestled (if at all) with the trend to moving away from timestamping things in GW/BL the last few years.

 

I'll try to keep it in mind when I get my hands on Blood of Iax, but being a forgetful person, I can't guaruntee I'll keep my eyes peeled! Basically considering the question - does much get cut/edited-out/created-but-not-explicitly-included in the writing process re: <gestures at Cawl and space-time logistics> this sort of thing?

 

(Authorial headcanon, I suppose.)

 

Not that by reading it'll be easily decipherable, but I'm vaguely hopeful...!

[Wargamer]

Lack of timestamps annoys the hell out of me, especially as they have a built in system for allowing errors in stamping. But for some reason EVERY event is a 0/1 level accuracy event...

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Once again, Cawl IS the Steve Jobs of the 40Kverse I'd be pretty disappointed in myself if given 10k years I couldn't put together a tech-genius heavy team like Cawl must have to solve all those pesky problems that Big Booby G gave him.

 

      Cawl steps into one of his many labs and yells, "I don't hear any thinkin' going on in here!!! GET TO WORK!!!"

 

I really think this comment is key. I don't think that the Cawl lore is awful, but it isn't fleshed out. This guy wants to be in charge of Mars he has to have a pretty large following in order for that to be feasible. I have a feeling thats he was more like, I want a plasma gun but bigger, and then one even bigger for the dread to team of Admech. He also is the sole face of Admech on the table top, so I think that they're over compensating in how cool is because of the lack of attention that fraction gets.

[Ishagu]

I find it funny when people complain too much about holes in the lore.

 

This is the Imperium we're talking about. They don't even know what date it is.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Once again, Cawl IS the Steve Jobs of the 40Kverse I'd be pretty disappointed in myself if given 10k years I couldn't put together a tech-genius heavy team like Cawl must have to solve all those pesky problems that Big Booby G gave him.

 

      Cawl steps into one of his many labs and yells, "I don't hear any thinkin' going on in here!!! GET TO WORK!!!"

 

I really think this comment is key. I don't think that the Cawl lore is awful, but it isn't fleshed out. This guy wants to be in charge of Mars he has to have a pretty large following in order for that to be feasible. I have a feeling thats he was more like, I want a plasma gun but bigger, and then one even bigger for the dread to team of Admech. He also is the sole face of Admech on the table top, so I think that they're over compensating in how cool is because of the lack of attention that fraction gets.

 

 

Even though I wrote this comment with tongue firmly planted in cheek, I was actually quite serious about the idea of Cawl being the master over a very talented army of minions Although a huge talent himself (IMO), Cawl is not the wizard behind every single upgrade and new tech in the Dark Imperium. As Brother Black_Star points out, the Cawl lore is not awful, it just needs to be fleshed out more.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I find it funny when people complain too much about holes in the lore.

 

This is the Imperium we're talking about. They don't even know what date it is.

I find such gaps a case of incompetent worldbuilding and storytelling. If you leave others with too many unanswered questions, they'll either quit following your works due to sheer frustration (with potentially disastrous consequences, as Rian Johnson demonstrated when he alienated traditional 'Star Wars' fans by disregarding J. J. Abrams' previous work), or do as 4chan does and attempt to personally fill in the gaps with useless memes.

[Panzer]

Heh, quite funny considering one of the things people were hating on with GWs new approach to the lore was that they reveal too much and don't leave enough for the imagination. No matter how they do it, they do it wrong. :D

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Heh, quite funny considering one of the things people were hating on with GWs new approach to the lore was that they reveal too much and don't leave enough for the imagination. No matter how they do it, they do it wrong. :D

The problem is Games Workshop gives too much information on topics where fans prefer a little mystery, and too much mystery on topics where fans demand more information. All writers face the challenge of finding a "middle ground" that leaves fans wanting more, without either sating these same fans' appetite for information and then and making them lose interest, or driving the fans to quit in sheer frustration because they didn't get what they want. Again, J. J. Abrams and Rian Johnson's handling of the 'Star Wars' sequels are great examples of what NOT TO DO.

[Ishagu]

It's impossible to please everyone. Unfortunately these days complaining is like a sport.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

It's impossible to please everyone. Unfortunately these days complaining is like a sport.

Sad but so very, very true.

[Xisor]

Laughable to see RJ painted as the Bad Guy and JJ as the good guy. For me: TFA was forgettable filler and TLJ actually had nicely done substance suited to my tastes.

 

JJ really struggles (if he even tries - it may not be a priority!) to make things have sustained or deep interest. LOST or ALIAS for example, or old nu Star Trek. Intriguing and captivating ideas... But whose attractive details are self-defeating. The strengths are their weaknesses, irritatingly. (Bloody hell, LOST. That daft final season!)

 

In 40k, what's ideal for everyone is providing variety of focus, especially multiple and different takes on the same topic.

 

With Cawl (and to an extent: the Primaris), we haven't really had that.

 

We've not had the sufficiently deep nuts and bolts world-building and mythologising. Not a huge element of character and character-building either.

 

New Ad Mech and Primaris could benefit from a taste of that too, but not at the cost of rubbishing the headline, detail-sparse, attractively attention grabbing stuff.

 

And I think both camps (and other quieter camps) would be very pleased to see more characters, narrative and more life throughout them.

 

(The best quip for me came in the tiny passage on 'living saints of the Mechanicus' on Cawl's 8th Ed lore entry.)

 

More of more, more of new *and* more of the same *would* go a great distance to pleasing everyone.

 

Basically ensure that the people who'd complain about one detail have something else to sing happily about. Manage that and everyone's happy. And that *is* more achievable.

 

Cater to only one specific group, or outright neglect the other, and I think that's where you get trouble.

 

But one single thing to please absolutely everyone? Probably not.

[Brother Casman]

Alright folks, drop the discussion about Star Wars, JJ Abrams, and Rian Johnson. While I know they're being used as examples, these things tend to take a life of their own.

 

40k only.

 

=][=

[TheTrans]

Yeah Do-All-Cawl is a bit of a problem, been some excellent thoughts on the topic!

I think one of my issues was (and I didn't finish Dark Imperium as it was pretty bloody dire) the, oh yeah you can talk to the Cawl inferior and it can answer what ever question you ask because Cawl has pretty much thought of every plausible eventuality and programmed it in..or some :cuss like that... *voms*

That and nu-marines have no downside, everything needs an up and down..but no beuno... 

Thats why I live my life in pre-fall of cadia and pre-Bligh passing.. and predominantly in the Imperial Armour books.. they had some glorious stuff in them :P

I feel that 40k, due to Do-All-Cawl-Machina, is changing from a 'setting' into more of a moving story, which while moving it along is great as it hasn't moved for years.. moving it along with a bunch of stuff that was impossible/improbable before some one said 'yo we gots to sell bigger marines' is a problem.

Just as an aside, I kind of wish GW turned around and just went//'yeah...sorry...there are how big marines have always meant to be, so sorry"..

People are kidding them selves that the new fluff will allow their older marines to live on happily... if anything it will kill them off more quickly. We've had scale issues for forever.. but fluff is where :cuss goes to die.. Old marines squatted in less than half a decade... you heard it here folks ;). 

[Doghouse]

In all seriousness I would have just scaled up the marine models and moved on. :D

 

But had it been insisted the story needed to be moved on to include new improved marines I would have retconned and hinted at Primaris operating at the end of the Heresy in covert missions at first. Then tie in the 21st Founding experiments much later as Primaris that had been discovered early and they were having problems being revived from stasis because no one knew what they were, but their genetic material was being force fused with geneseed to try and force some super marines by some mad adept.

 

Then when the forces of chaos make it to Macragge just have the force field flicker off and Guilliman just stands up. I'd make it so that the plan all along had been that his brothers would venture off into space to prepare until such time the Imperium needed them. As the Primarch awakens a beacon is triggered which wakes the Primaris and begins to recall any surviving Primarchs. 

[Ishagu]

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

[TheTrans]

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

 

Also yes... the new lore has also done a good job of destroying one of the defining glorious/ridiculous/#grimdark parts of the imperium for some delightful noble-bright thing they are looking for....

[Kallas]

 

 

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

Maybe whenever we reply to anything about Primaris we should just include a quote of Ishagu saying how much he loves them.

 

It'd certainly speed things up!

[TheTrans]

 

 

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

Maybe whenever we reply to anything about Primaris we should just include a quote of Ishagu saying how much he loves them.

 

It'd certainly speed things up!

 

 

Would certainly save the forum's server some work, would also stop the replies numbers being 'fluffed' by Ishagu! 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

 

Also yes... the new lore has also done a good job of destroying one of the defining glorious/ridiculous/#grimdark parts of the imperium for some delightful noble-bright thing they are looking for....

 

 

Couldn't the same argument be made for certain posters that they turn up making the same arguments about how by introducing the new fluff, GW have personally ruined their childhood? Can we please not have more threads derailed into bashing others over their opinions of 40k?

[RikuEru]

 

 

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

 

Also yes... the new lore has also done a good job of destroying one of the defining glorious/ridiculous/#grimdark parts of the imperium for some delightful noble-bright thing they are looking for....

Not a personal atrack against you, but against the point you brought up:

Anyone who just regurgitates "grimdark is dead, 40k is now noble-bright" hasn't looked into actual new lore - and is just as entrenched in his opinion as Ishagu, if not more so.

 

The Primaris are not faultless - the Gene Faults are still there, even tho they were BELIEVED to be fixed for a time.

 

The Primaris are not immune to the Warp - there are scenes that depict Felix feeling the Corruption, Despair or smelling Nurgle's Stench through his sealed armor.

 

Primaris aren't copy+paste replacements - Dark Imperium 2 has a very intriguing slice-of-life chapter about a Primaris needing to go through a hypno-indoctrination/VR-training-video to adjust to the Novamarines Chapter Traditions and Mantra. And he struggles to do so.

 

Primaris aren't the "Easy Win"-Button for the Imperium - it's not like they easily kill of Plague Marines in droves and don't die to these 10.000 year old Veterans...

Nor is Guilliman, even tho he is TRYING to fix everything and win everywhere, the point is made crystally clear that any progress he can make is minimal and only very slowly.

 

And the same with Cawl - the Cawl Inferior wasn't described as omniscient. More like it had a wiseass answer or non-answer for any reasonable issue raised programmed already.

We all know Cawl can't have done these things singledhandedly. And we will surely see a Mechanicus-perspective in a chapter or a full novel down the line, where these issues are raised.

The Elon Musk/Steve Jobs comparison is very fitting.

 

The Old Marines aren't killed off just so - Cato Sicarius was lost in the Warp. He could have easily stayed lost for story purposes. Instead they are clearly seeding an entirely new story/development/plot for him - because he wants revenge... (And for all his Memes and Mary Sue traits, THAT scene made me like him and want to know more!)

...and other "Old Marines" aren't either.

 

You should look further than just the front cover of an Issue. It actually has depth, more than ever before, now that other branches of the Imperium (Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sororitas, Mechanicus, Rogue Traders, Gangs, Precipice, etc.) get some time in the spotlight in Codices, Boxed Games and Novels (again, for some).

[Panzer]

 

 

I'm perfectly happy with the Primaris bring a new thing.

For the first time, the Imperium isn't just looking to the past.

For future reference mate, we'll just presume that you'll post you love primaris after every post that doesn't particularly like them.. save you the effort of rewriting the same stuff over and over and over again.

 

Also yes... the new lore has also done a good job of destroying one of the defining glorious/ridiculous/#grimdark parts of the imperium for some delightful noble-bright thing they are looking for....

Not a personal atrack against you, but against the point you brought up:

Anyone who just regurgitates "grimdark is dead, 40k is now noble-bright" hasn't looked into actual new lore - and is just as entrenched in his opinion as Ishagu, if not more so.

 

The Primaris are not faultless - the Gene Faults are still there, even tho they were BELIEVED to be fixed for a time.

 

The Primaris are not immune to the Warp - there are scenes that depict Felix feeling the Corruption, Despair or smelling Nurgle's Stench through his sealed armor.

 

Primaris aren't copy+paste replacements - Dark Imperium 2 has a very intriguing slice-of-life chapter about a Primaris needing to go through a hypno-indoctrination/VR-training-video to adjust to the Novamarines Chapter Traditions and Mantra. And he struggles to do so.

 

Primaris aren't the "Easy Win"-Button for the Imperium - it's not like they easily kill of Plague Marines in droves and don't die to these 10.000 year old Veterans...

Nor is Guilliman, even tho he is TRYING to fix everything and win everywhere, the point is made crystally clear that any progress he can make is minimal and only very slowly.

 

And the same with Cawl - the Cawl Inferior wasn't described as omniscient. More like it had a wiseass answer or non-answer for any reasonable issue raised programmed already.

We all know Cawl can't have done these things singledhandedly. And we will surely see a Mechanicus-perspective in a chapter or a full novel down the line, where these issues are raised.

The Elon Musk/Steve Jobs comparison is very fitting.

 

The Old Marines aren't killed off just so - Cato Sicarius was lost in the Warp. He could have easily stayed lost for story purposes. Instead they are clearly seeding an entirely new story/development/plot for him - because he wants revenge... (And for all his Memes and Mary Sue traits, THAT scene made me like him and want to know more!)

...and other "Old Marines" aren't either.

 

You should look further than just the front cover of an Issue. It actually has depth, more than ever before, now that other branches of the Imperium (Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sororitas, Mechanicus, Rogue Traders, Gangs, Precipice, etc.) get some time in the spotlight in Codices, Boxed Games and Novels (again, for some).

 

 

So much this.

Tho I still expect old marines to disappear eventually ... it will just take more time than the hater say. ^^

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Anyone who just regurgitates "grimdark is dead, 40k is now noble-bright" hasn't looked into actual new lore - and is just as entrenched in his opinion as Ishagu, if not more so.

 

The Primaris are not faultless - the Gene Faults are still there, even tho they were BELIEVED to be fixed for a time.

 

The Primaris are not immune to the Warp - there are scenes that depict Felix feeling the Corruption, Despair or smelling Nurgle's Stench through his sealed armor.

 

Primaris aren't copy+paste replacements - Dark Imperium 2 has a very intriguing slice-of-life chapter about a Primaris needing to go through a hypno-indoctrination/VR-training-video to adjust to the Novamarines Chapter Traditions and Mantra. And he struggles to do so.

 

Considering how badly Games Workshop's editors handled the discrepancies between the propaganda-like codices and Black Library's novels- many of which are unread, despite fans' efforts to catch up with the fictional universe's history- Ishagu's mistake is understandable, and one shared by many.

Tho I still expect old marines to disappear eventually ... it will just take more time than the hater say. ^^

I expect the same. What I hope for is the old Marines die deaths worth remembering, even celebrating- none of the nonsense I keep getting from Marvel and DC Comics when they want to replace classic heroes with the "All-New, All-Different" hero(ine) for the current (and politically toxic) day.