Use the Beacon Angelis on arrival?

[Maritn]

Hey folks,

 

I haven't found this answered so far: Can you teleport the character with your Beacon Angelis onto the battlefield and use the BA immediately after his arrival? Both happens at the end of your movement phase, and as you can also shock with 2+ squads at the end of your movement phase, I guess you could do this as well? Thanks in advance.

[anarchistscourge]

We go by if 2 rules take effect at same time the active player chooses which happens first. I wasn’t able to find a more clear cut answer myself

[vigitant]

At every level of play as far as I've heard, the answer is yes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you think about it by RAW that cannot both occur at the same time.

[mjrwaud]

My memory might be failing, but I believe this has come up before and the consensus among those I've played with has to be based on the only rule clarification we've gotten so far on the beacon (7E FAQ v. 1) which reads:

 

Q: Can the Beacon Angelis’ relocation power be used on the

turn it arrives, as Deep Strike and relocation both happen at the

beginning of the turn?

A: No.

 

Do we need a new clarification for 8E? Definitely, especially with the new deep striking rules and things happening at the end of the turn.... but until then I'm sticking with it how it seems like it was originally intended and insist that the beacon be on the table at the beginning of the turn you want to use it. So, how does this work?

 

A -  Deep striking (via teleport / jump pack) character with beacon can't beacon in units on the same turn he deep strikes in.

B - Character (on foot / with a jump pack / in vehicle?) who was on the table at the start of the turn can move forward (and advance) and then use the beacon.

 

To me, it seems reasonable and fair to do it this way.

[Qui-Gon]

 

My memory might be failing, but I believe this has come up before and the consensus among those I've played with has to be based on the only rule clarification we've gotten so far on the beacon (7E FAQ v. 1) which reads:

 

Q: Can the Beacon Angelis’ relocation power be used on the

turn it arrives, as Deep Strike and relocation both happen at the

beginning of the turn?

A: No.

 

Do we need a new clarification for 8E? Definitely, especially with the new deep striking rules and things happening at the end of the turn.... but until then I'm sticking with it how it seems like it was originally intended and insist that the beacon be on the table at the beginning of the turn you want to use it. So, how does this work?

 

A -  Deep striking (via teleport / jump pack) character with beacon can't beacon in units on the same turn he deep strikes in.

B - Character (on foot / with a jump pack / in vehicle?) who was on the table at the start of the turn can move forward (and advance) and then use the beacon.

 

To me, it seems reasonable and fair to do it this way.

 

 

1. A ruling from 7th Edition where the rules on Teleport Homers were DRASTICALLY different cannot be used here as future proofing an answer.

2. The rules do not support your position.

 

The rules for Teleport Strike/Jump Pack Assault/Teleportarium state "At the end of the Movement Phase..." The Beacon Angelis states "At the end of the Movement Phase..." There is nothing else in the Beacon that indicates that it needs to be on the table at the start of the turn to work, so don't put one there. Read the rule as it is written. The Beacon can be used the turn it arrives using the order of operations as determined by the active player (yourself when you bring it in) to bring in the dude holding it and then use the beacon to relocate a unit.

[vigitant]

Also, the players choice of order is an integral part of the game right now.  You don't deep strike all at the same time.  If you decide you're going to deep strike just your vanguard unit, and the enemy triggers their auspex, you can then decide to deep strike another, more vulnerable unit since theyve used auspex already.
If Necrons respond to your first deep strike by dropping Deathmarks, they can potentially zone out further deep strikes into the area that had been outside of 9".  This could potentially :cuss beacon play, btw, so be advised.

RAW absolutely says yes. 

[mjrwaud]

@Qui-Gon

As you might have read in my post, I fully agree that there needs to be some clarification as to how it works in 8E exactly because the rules for deep strike have changed so much. In the absence of such clarification, I'm simply basing my own use of the beacon (with agreement from my opponents) according to how it was previously used (ie. the "spirit" of the rules from 7E) and in a way that doesn't seem handicapped or overpowered. In terms of highly competitive or tournament environments (that I have little interest in), I'd happily go with whatever their interpretation of the rules might be.

 

Edit: The crux of the matter for me and the source of my interpretation of the rules stems from the deep strike rules for a model occurring at the end of its movement phase, ie. that if the character arrives via deep strike "at the end of the movement phase" that is the end of that models movement phase and it seems a fair interpretation of the rules that its movement phase is now over and therefore the end of any possible actions for that model. This may be an overly conservative interpretation, but one I believe is reasonable.  

[Black Knight]

Wasn't this relic added in Chapter Approved? That was the first time I ever saw it mentioned. If that was the case they knew the meta and the rules so I would be inclined to use the ideas of above that reflect 8E.

 

mjrwaud: If it is the end of a model's movement phase, then it is still the end and so the Beacon should be able to be used. Think of it this way AM repairs happen at the end of the Movement phase, if we used your interpretation you would only be able to use one repair because you would be at the end and have to immediately move on to shooting.

 

If we have to wait for a turn from the initial 2nd turn deepstrike you are hitting the third turn to get reinforcements in, they are dead next turn if they don't. That diminishes the Beacon's usefulness because the rest of your army has to wait for reinforcements for 3 turns. Most games are pretty much decided by then.

[vigitant]

@Qui-Gon

As you might have read in my post, I fully agree that there needs to be some clarification as to how it works in 8E exactly because the rules for deep strike have changed so much. In the absence of such clarification, I'm simply basing my own use of the beacon (with agreement from my opponents) according to how it was previously used (ie. the "spirit" of the rules from 7E) and in a way that doesn't seem handicapped or overpowered. In terms of highly competitive or tournament environments (that I have little interest in), I'd happily go with whatever their interpretation of the rules might be.

 

Edit: The crux of the matter for me and the source of my interpretation of the rules stems from the deep strike rules for a model occurring at the end of its movement phase, ie. that if the character arrives via deep strike "at the end of the movement phase" that is the end of that models movement phase and it seems a fair interpretation of the rules that its movement phase is now over and therefore the end of any possible actions for that model. This may be an overly conservative interpretation, but one I believe is reasonable.

 

The problem with this is that units dont have movement phases.  Players do. 

Different games/editions have different ways to work trigger based rules text.

For instance, in MTG, rules that have end/beginning of phase triggers trigger at once, with priority designating who decides in what order.

In, say, Sentinels, entities(cards) are triggered during effects independently, based on the order they were played.  This means that if one card triggers to bring in another card that also triggers at the same step, the new card also triggers.

 

In 8th ed, the player decides order, with discrepancies going to the player who's turn it is. 

It's not a case of End of movement: Declare all deep strikes->deep strike all units declared.  Many other rules would not work in this case, and specific given examples show that its not the case.

It's a case of End of movement Phase: Declare a deep strike->resolve deep strike->resolve any further triggers(deathmarks, auspex, etc.)->declare next deep strike, if any,...

repeat as necessary.

 

Given the rules as written currently, we would need a specific prohibition on using the beacon after deep striking the bearer.

 

Edit:  at the core, its a matter of whether a phase ending/beginning is triggering entities, or whether entities are triggering with phase limitations.  8th ed deep strikes are most certainly using the second.

[Prot]

Personally I view it as technically legal to use the turn it comes on.

 

I do clearly remember in 7 th there was a ‘must be on the table at the start of the turn’ stipulation which has been skipped this time around.

 

I also agree with the idea of order of operation being more of a choice mechanism over 7 th edition’s all at the same time approach.

 

Just my personal opinion but since the dex dropped in 8th I’ve played it with that intent to use in the turn it appears. Honestly I haven’t really seen anything crazy, or abusive about it

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The end means the very last thing - I avoid slippery slopes.

[Prot]

The end means the very last thing - I avoid slippery slopes.

And what happens when two or more things happen at the end? Which is ‘the very last ‘.

 

And Very last itself is an interpretation. To me it never meant that....moreso it indicated after movement, but before conclusion of the phase.

 

Honestly I’ve never used it that way in 8 th My personal rule is if my opponent reads any rule differently than I do, and I can understand why, then I simply wouldn’t do it.

 

What really bothers me about this is they copied and pasted quite a few things from our 7 th ed Codex. So why not keep the text that said ‘must be on the table at the beginning of the turn”? ( if that was their intent).

 

For example I remember playing my Chaos Red Corsairs when the codex came out. And there was the first time I went to cast Warp Time on a squad of Warp Talons the turn they came in. And I thought nah that can’t be what they intended so I nerfed myself until the FAQ for Chaos came out shortly after clarifying that this was completely legal.

 

Fast forward to beta rules today and they changed their minds.

 

Maybe it’s best to figure it out with your opponent and / or rules official before an event. I honestly could see this going either way. ( if they address it )

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"And what happens when two or more things happen at the end? Which is ‘the very last ‘."

 

We don't know - it needs an FAQ imo to answer this one. I always take the conservative approach when it comes to the rules .

[Black Knight]

 

And what happens when two or more things happen at the end? Which is ‘the very last ‘.

 

https://goo.gl/images/ZBrD1e

 

If it becomes a problem it will be FAQed. While I am waiting I am going to drop both in a turn.

[Moostick]

In my opinion, the "at the end of the phase" meaning only one can happen wouldn't make sense.

 

Each deepstriking unit has this rule independently. If only one "at the end of the phase" thing can happen per phase, then that means only one unit in reserve can deepstrike a turn, and we all know that's not the case.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play competitively and try to avoid anything that can be argued either way. If your opponents don't care then no big deal. I will say if GW addresses it I doubt you will like the answer TBH .

[Qui-Gon]

Let us know then when next your opponents wish to activate more than one "At the end of the phase" or "At the beginning" of the phase abilities and you say "uh uh uh, strictly speaking, you can only do ONE of those abilities because once you do a thing you've now passed the (start of/end of) the phase." Would you let an opponent do that to you?

[mjrwaud]

Maybe it's overly complicated or a holdover from previous editions, but for me since there can be many "at the end of the phase" occurring in the same turn and restricting it to only one just wouldnt work, the rule should be applied on a per model basis along these lines...

 

First - Models move / advance as normal

Second - Each model that has one gets one "occurs at the end of the phase" action... ie. deep strikers arrive, beacon used, etc. but only one of these can occur per model, which marks the end of their individual movement phase

Third - Any general "occurs that end of the phase" actions that are not tied to a particular model or unit occur.

 

Maybe it's incorrect, but it seems reasonable in the absence of GW clarification. 

[Qui-Gon]

If you actively want to see one of our premier relics get nerfed, then please, continue to try to nerf it. For me, I will play rules as written and continue to use the Beacon on the turn it arrives.

[Prot]

Okay, so it's safe to say we have a lot of opinions on this. There's a lot of good answers, and obviously some people take a hard stand on it, but there's room for clarity. Or at least enough question to warrant clarity (like my "Warp Time" after deep strike example required).

 

So let's leave it at that, and I'd encourage everyone to hit up GW on Facebook or email their FAQ team. Otherwise it looks like it's hit a wall here. If something new comes to fruition, let me know and I'll reopen the topic.