Would 40K with Kill Team rules work?

[Wargamer]

Now I should specify I'm not suggesting you play a game of Kill Team with a whole 40K army, but rather 40K use the Kill Team turn format. The short version of which is:

 

• Each turn, players roll for Initiative. Winner is "First Player".
• First Player moves whole army - then second player.
• Alternating psychic phase, starting with First Player.
• Alternating shooting phase for Prepared units (units that didn't move) starting with First Player.
• Alternating shooting phase for all other units, starting with First Player.
• Alternating fight phase for units that charged, starting with First Player.
• Alternating fight phase for all other units in combat, starting with First Player.

Other potential elements to carry over would be as follows:

• Shooting at over half range has a -1 to hit.
• Cover gives -1 to hit instead of +1 save.
• Units are in cover if any part of the model is obscured by terrain from the firer's point of view.

 

Has anyone tried this? Is anyone going to try this? If so, which parts of Kill Team were kept and which were dropped to make the game flow smoothly?

[Panzer]

I thought about that as well and I'm rather sure it would work and solve quite a few problems we have in 40k. Mainly the problem of the alpha strike. It would also make the movement phase finally a lot more tactically important again which would be a huge plus in my book.

 

On the downside 40k has a lot more units so it would be a lot more book keeping with which unit did already what and so on.

 

I'd be careful with too many negative to-hit modificators tho. There already are some in 40k and stacking them would break some armies. It would also probably make it too easy for pure melee armies to overwhelm shooty armies. I'm thinking here mainly about Daemon hordes, World Eaters, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

[Wargamer]

I thought about that as well and I'm rather sure it would work and solve quite a few problems we have in 40k. Mainly the problem of the alpha strike. It would also make the movement phase finally a lot more tactically important again which would be a huge plus in my book.

 

On the downside 40k has a lot more units so it would be a lot more book keeping with which unit did already what and so on.

 

I'd be careful with too many negative to-hit modificators tho. There already are some in 40k and stacking them would break some armies. It would also probably make it too easy for pure melee armies to overwhelm shooty armies. I'm thinking here mainly about Daemon hordes, World Eaters, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

For keeping track of everything, I don't think it'd actually be that much harder - you just need plenty of tokens that you can put next to units to show they've moved, shot and/or fought in combat.

 

As to combat vs shooting, something to keep in mind would be that combat units can't move and charge - it's either/or. That puts a big dampener on a lot of combat units, and if you add in stuff like falling back as a charge reaction and movement penalties for crossing terrain, you'd effectively make Deep Strike charges nigh impossible.

[Atrus]

Im quite curious as to how this would turn out in an actual game. It does seem to engage both players which is good.

Not keen on the negs to outside half range. That'd neuter some weapons that dont need neutering (melta).

[Panzer]

The Long range penalty definitely needs some minimum distance so already short ranged weapons remain useable.

[Blindhamster]

 i think it would be pretty cool. Not tried it though so cant say how well it would work in practice. Honestly I'd take it further and say even the advanced rules could come into play for advanced 40k (stuff like jumping and climbing). You'd absolutely want to reintroduce stuff like vehicle facing for a ruleset like this too.

[Halandaar]

On the downside 40k has a lot more units so it would be a lot more book keeping with which unit did already what and so on.

 

Well the bookkeeping for 10 individual models in Kill Team would be the same as for 10 whole units in 40k, so I don't think it would be too bad. Obviously it varies by game size and army composition, but pretty much the same applies in Kill Team anyway (more bookkeeping for 20 Cultists than for 8 Marines)

[Panzer]

Fair enough I guess. ^^

[mel_danes]

This is a great idea. I'd be very interested in a battle report if anyone tries it.

[RandomMarine]

Give me the weapon range -1 rule and cover works but with the 40k +1 save and is be happy. Might give it a try next game night.

[thewarriorhunter]

I've thought about this a lot as well. My biggest problem with 40k is that I set for 45 minutes while you do your thing, then you sit for 45 minutes. And if one of us has really hot dice one turn you may not even get to use a unit or two because I focus fired them down on my shooting turn. I would love to see the phases ported over, I don't know about the modifier rules as sfPanzer pointed out. The systems ARE different so it's not a direct port and would need some massaging to work cleanly.

 

I talked with one guy in a FB group I'm in who did play a game of 40k with the phases from KT and said it was a blast. They played a small game, i think 750 points just to try it out. They said it was very enjoyable and they didn't run into any huge issues that they couldn't figure out on the fly.

 

In the past we've seen GW introduce new rules into one system and port them over to the other, most recently with things in AoS going to 40k and vice versa. I would not be surprised at all if they take some of the alternating aspects from KT and port them to the next version of 40k. It might be one of the reasons they didn't do a true alternating activation movement phase in KT. By doing a partial alternating system in the new game it will introduce the idea and get people comfortable with it.

 

I think one of the goals with KT is to provide a more engaging experience and also to bring in new players. If a new player is used to this method of play and they decide to make the jump to 40k they'll feel at home if the phases are ever changed in the larger system.

[Atrus]

I tried a little 500pt game the other night and i thought it was great. I dont have the kill team rules so i didnt have any modifiers, but just playing with the alternations and prepared shooting phase and all that made for a completely different and much more satisfying experience.

I made some deviations from the OPs suggestions.

 

1) Player who finished the previous phase first gets first go in the next phase. This cuts out unnecessary rolling.

 

2) Each player alternates moving units in movement.

 

3) i didnt have charges declared in moving phase because i didnt remember that one.

 

4) units targeting units that deep strike only shoot at bs6+ on the turn the unit arrives unless the targeting unit has something that lets them shoot at deep strikers out of sequence.

 

That last one is one i threw together after pondering deep striking mellee units and how theyd be b lasted before having a chance to do anything. Probably addressed in KT rules but again i dont have it on hand.

 

I also implemented a 2cp stratagem that let the person not going first at the start of a phase to sieze the iniative and go first for that phase.

 

Like i said, a deviation from OP and probably from KT, but these changes alone in a normal game made for a much more engaging and close fought experience.

[The Unseen]

Alternating phases I don't care for.

Too much book keeping and mental effort to remember order for each phase.

I think a bolt action style of activation could work though.

Not whole cloth, as the randomized nature of their dice pull doesn't work when you have widely varying number of units, but just straight alternating full activations of individual units could be good.

 

Would favor elite armies a little more early, but hordes would still have an advantage on objectives, as they'd always have the last few activations.

 

You could even bring back strategy ratings and strategems to influence turn order, etc.

 

And also suddenly makes melee/close range units a bit better, can wait in cover or out of LoS turn 1 till the last few activations, move up, then try to go first next turn, etc.

[Panzer]

I tried a little 500pt game the other night and i thought it was great. I dont have the kill team rules so i didnt have any modifiers, but just playing with the alternations and prepared shooting phase and all that made for a completely different and much more satisfying experience.

I made some deviations from the OPs suggestions.

 

1) Player who finished the previous phase first gets first go in the next phase. This cuts out unnecessary rolling.

 

2) Each player alternates moving units in movement.

 

3) i didnt have charges declared in moving phase because i didnt remember that one.

 

4) units targeting units that deep strike only shoot at bs6+ on the turn the unit arrives unless the targeting unit has something that lets them shoot at deep strikers out of sequence.

 

That last one is one i threw together after pondering deep striking mellee units and how theyd be b lasted before having a chance to do anything. Probably addressed in KT rules but again i dont have it on hand.

 

I also implemented a 2cp stratagem that let the person not going first at the start of a phase to sieze the iniative and go first for that phase.

 

Like i said, a deviation from OP and probably from KT, but these changes alone in a normal game made for a much more engaging and close fought experience.

 

1) You don't roll for each phase initiative. You roll once at the beginning of the turn and then keep the initiative order for the whole turn. If you meant turn rather than phase, then I'd advice against it. That was one of the biggest complains in AoS so GW had to introduce a new mechanic for the new edition to balance things out.

 

2) Not too sure about that. I think it worked just fine the way it is in Kill Team. However I haven't tested it in regular 40k yet.

 

3) That one is crucial for why the movement phase feels so much better compared to 40k imo

 

4) Not sure why that should be a thing. Deep Strike has already its own benefit in not being able to get shot before they arrive where they want to be among others. For pure melee units it sounds like a neat buff, maybe even a bit too strong depending on the unit, but not something you'd want for every deep striking unit out there (Obliterators anyone?).

Also there is nothing for those in the Kill Team rules because there are no reserves in Kill Team so far.

[Atrus]

1) i may have simply misread or misunderstood OPs post. I found the way i did it helped balance things out. In my game the niddies got a psychic phase to themselves, but because sisters technically finished psychic phase first they got the first activation in the following prepared shooting.

 

2) i just wanted to follow the alternating formula from the get go. Seemed weird to have whole armies move and then alternate every other phase. Personal preference.

 

3) yeah i might have to give that one another go. Are charges at start or end of movement?

 

4) yeab this was just me trying to come up with a solution. KT not having deepstrikers makes a bit of a need gor creativity there when trying to port over to 40k.

I know it benefits dakka DSers a lot. As i said, my effort was to help out mellee DSers. That said, actually doing any charges in the movement would probably do better to solve that and eliminate the need for making up extra rules. Although DS counts as move and units cant move and charge so that put mellee in a tight spot again. Maybe a -1 neg to hit when targeting such a unit? Have said unit be -1 to hit with shooting as well be too much?

[Panzer]

3) yeah i might have to give that one another go. Are charges at start or end of movement?

 

 

Whenever you want the model to charge. During the movement phase you have 4 options you can chose from (only one of them!):

• normal move
• advance
• charge
• ready (goes first in the shooting phase like having charged for the fighting phase)

[Wargamer]

Something to keep in mind is that in Kill Team, you can still move if you make a failed charge if you want to.

 

For example - if you declare a charge and need a 9" to succeed but roll a 5, you can choose to either stay put or move 5" toward the enemy. Either way, you can't shoot or advance.

 

Keeping that in mind is important, especially for units that can absorb dakka should they botch their charge.

[Panzer]

Right, that's pretty important as well and something that should've been in the game since forever imo.

[Halandaar]

Was it the case that you could do this in older editions, or possibly in fantasy? I definitely remember it from somewhere, but not sure if it was a real rule!

[Panzer]

In 7e in Fantasy when you declared a charge and failed to reach you had to move half the distance. Likewise the opponent could "flee" as reaction to make it more likely for you to fail the charge thus having your unit move into a for him favourable position for a counter charge in the flank etc.

One of the reasons why fantasy, at least in that edition, was won in the movement phase which felt much more satisfying imo. ^^

[Halandaar]

In 7e in Fantasy when you declared a charge and failed to reach you had to move half the distance. Likewise the opponent could "flee" as reaction to make it more likely for you to fail the charge thus having your unit move into a for him favourable position for a counter charge in the flank etc.

One of the reasons why fantasy, at least in that edition, was won in the movement phase which felt much more satisfying imo. ^^

 

That must be it, my memories of that time are hazy at best! Anyway, apologies for the tangent. 

[Wargamer]

Was it the case that you could do this in older editions, or possibly in fantasy? I definitely remember it from somewhere, but not sure if it was a real rule!

Almost every edition of Fantasy had a rule where a failed charge resulted in a single move forward.