Beating the new Space Wolves Codex with Blood Angels

[Indefragable]

W-C.com preview up for Space Wolves.

 

Short version:

 

 

 

 

That's really fascinating. For us sons of Baal, SW are going to be quite the interesting faction to face: we can hit harder, but they can hit more accurately (and with less support needed).

 

First thought: this actually hurts us more than it seems. Yes, an enemy with no penalty to swinging Thunder Hammers et al is nasty, but more than anything it means we have to be very careful about dogpiling units onto them. Multiple combats (prone to the interupt universal Strategem) will be a dicey affair so we will have to put that much more thought how we take down the enemy.. In a vacumm, a SW vs BA matchup would likely come down to how we maximize our jump packs. Their Primaris vs our Primaris is more of an advantage for us (for now....) since Aggresssors are the only unit (for now....) that gets max mileage out of the +1 To Hit ability. Someone else I'm sure will do the math for what is "better", +1 To Hit or +1 To Wound (as always it's "it depends").

 

Will definitely be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

 

 

On a seperate note...is this the first Chapter Tactic (equivalent) to have 2x aspects to it? They get both +1 To Hit and 6" Heroic Intervention across the board. I never want to take away from another kid's birthday, so I won't go any further, but it will be interesting to see if edition 8.1 starts seeing other power armored factions/Chaos SM/GK/DW getting a "secondary" CT as well.

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/15/15th-aug-codex-space-wolves-preview-hunters-unleashed-and-datasheets-galoregw-homepage-post-3/

[The Unseen]

Interesting.

 

The 6" intervention aspect is neat, it ties into space wolves being "hero" focussed quite well without being ridiculous.

 

And generally, +1's are "worth" more the closer to the edges you get. Going from a 6+ to a 5+ literally doubles your successes. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ to hit is a similarly big deal. However, it means that any Characters with a native 2+ to hit and no unwieldy weapon receives no benefit.

 

Getting a straight +1 to hit is hard to replicate without Astorath, but rerolling 1's when your hitting on 3's is still pretty good,  but rerolling 1's to wound from a lieutenant doesn't even come close to +1 to wound when your needing 5's. So the Wolves will probably be "better' without any support, and their support loves to Heroically Intervene, but we will still be more lethal with a character supporting our units. Plus, Wolves won't be able to rely on weight of attacks to kill high toughness targets, but since their tactic works super well with power fists, probably will be a different but not better/worse situation.

 

Though Wolves have better specialist melee units than we do, or at least they will when they receive the point drops we all know their getting. Wulfen are, as has been the case for the past 3 goddamn editions, going to be everything DC should be plus some. (Yeah, I'm still super salty that Wulfen get to keep 5+ FNP, when the unit that literally invented the damn mechanic may as well not even have it anymore, and the fact that they get to swing after they die rather than the literally suicidally angry hallucinating madmen don't is a damn travesty,  *grumble grumble*. I'm setting up a betting pool now that Wulfen dreads blow our DC dreads out of the water now, any takers?)

 

At least thunderwolf cavalry aren't absurd vehicle/monster slayers anymore, as their extra attacks being set at Str5 -1AP left them still more than capable at infantry shredding, but they don't get to have every single cavalry member swing a thunder hammer 5 frikkin times like they used too.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Main thing that makes the SW tactic less efficient is that characters with non-unwieldy weapons won't benefit as they already hit on a 2+.

 

Yes there are already other chapters that have 2 CTs. Ultramarines are one.

 

I'll be that guy and take away from another kids birthday party. Their faction entire just got the Black Templar warlord trait for free. But its really not that big of a deal because its not actually useful, its a niche ability that has probably only come up for me once.

[Panzer]

I honestly think the SW Chapter tactic might be a bit stronger than ours. You can compensate the +1 to-wound by taking weapons with high strength (which often have a negative to-hit modificator) but you can't compensate the +1 to-hit with anything except maybe with weapons that give you more attacks which are more rare and often not quite the optimal choice (chainsword vs power sword for example).

 

Anyway, I'm happy for the Space Wolves but also slightly scared thinking about having to face way more Wulfen and TWC with Thunderhammers and Wulfen Dreads hitting on 2+ and re-rolling to wound rolls with their fists.

[brother_b]

I love it great for the wolves. I feel we need to look to relic blades and power axes. Can our captains take power axes? If so the 2+ to hit rerolling and 2+ to wound is quite a terrifying prospect.

 

Either way I'm super happy they got a powerful and fitting ability.

[Panzer]

Relic Blades have the problem of not allowing a Storm Shield and Power Axes are way worse than Thunder Hammers thanks to worse AP and only D1.

[Xenith]

So they get the bonus to hit, as well as one of our warlord traits (heroic intervention at 6") and the benefit of one of our relics (no negative to hit penalty on Hammer of Baal) on every character model. Whaddya know, the Space Wolves (once again) get everything other chapters get +1, or in this case, +3  . Still, you have to give them something to make up for the stigma of being a Space Wolf player. 

 

The +1 to hit I don't really get. If anything they're supposed to be berzerkers with more, furious, attacks.

 

Accurate swordsmanship/better weapons seems more our schtick: You could easily swap BA and SW tactics around and I think it would be more fluffy. 

 

Grey hunters will still get 3x specials in a unit. Long fangs 5/6.

 

If wolf scouts retain their ability to take special weapons, when there are no (available) models for scouts with special weapons, (as well as other non-model based options that we lost) I'll be pretty annoyed. 

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

W-C.com preview up for Space Wolves.

 

Short version:

 

 

 

 

That's really fascinating. For us sons of Baal, SW are going to be quite the interesting faction to face: we can hit harder, but they can hit more accurately (and with less support needed).

 

First thought: this actually hurts us more than it seems. Yes, an enemy with no penalty to swinging Thunder Hammers et al is nasty, but more than anything it means we have to be very careful about dogpiling units onto them. Multiple combats (prone to the interupt universal Strategem) will be a dicey affair so we will have to put that much more thought how we take down the enemy.. In a vacumm, a SW vs BA matchup would likely come down to how we maximize our jump packs. Their Primaris vs our Primaris is more of an advantage for us (for now....) since Aggresssors are the only unit (for now....) that gets max mileage out of the +1 To Hit ability. Someone else I'm sure will do the math for what is "better", +1 To Hit or +1 To Wound (as always it's "it depends").

 

Will definitely be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

 

 

On a seperate note...is this the first Chapter Tactic (equivalent) to have 2x aspects to it? They get both +1 To Hit and 6" Heroic Intervention across the board. I never want to take away from another kid's birthday, so I won't go any further, but it will be interesting to see if edition 8.1 starts seeing other power armored factions/Chaos SM/GK/DW getting a "secondary" CT as well.

 

 

The Dark Angels trait, Grim Resolves, is a two partner, reroll 1's to hit if stationary, and also only loses one model if morale check is failed, not sure about other armies.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/15/15th-aug-codex-space-wolves-preview-hunters-unleashed-and-datasheets-galoregw-homepage-post-3/

  

So they get the bonus to hit, as well as one of our warlord traits (heroic intervention at 6") and the benefit of one of our relics (no negative to hit penalty on Hammer of Baal) on every character model. Whaddya know, the Space Wolves (once again) get everything other chapters get +1, or in this case, +3 :sweat: . Still, you have to give them something to make up for the stigma of being a Space Wolf player. 

 

The +1 to hit I don't really get. If anything they're supposed to be berzerkers with more, furious, attacks.

 

Accurate swordsmanship/better weapons seems more our schtick: You could easily swap BA and SW tactics around and I think it would be more fluffy. 

 

Grey hunters will still get 3x specials in a unit. Long fangs 5/6.

 

If wolf scouts retain their ability to take special weapons, when there are no (available) models for scouts with special weapons, (as well as other non-model based options that we lost) I'll be pretty annoyed.

 

I wouldn't mind them keeping specials in the scouts, as we got to keep melta/plasma on our RAS.

 

But I do agree that their trait makes little sense from a fluff perspective, and believe it I think that Butcher's Nails, given another name like Fury of the Morkai, Fenris or the All father or something like that, granting +1 attack on the charge would be much more fitting with the fluff, as Space Wolves are bezerkers, not Khorne Bezerkers, but bezerkers none the less.

[Charlo]

Power Creep, plain and simple.

[Panzer]

I don't see the power creep just yet. If you think about it lots of what makes Blood Angels better than vanilla Marines comes from stacking buffs on our Captain and being able to actually bring our melee units into melee via Stratagems. The +1 to-wound is nice but that alone wouldn't make us that much better than vanilla Marines. ^^

[Xenith]

I don't see the power creep just yet. If you think about it lots of what makes Blood Angels better than vanilla Marines comes from stacking buffs on our Captain and being able to actually bring our melee units into melee via Stratagems. The +1 to-wound is nice but that alone wouldn't make us that much better than vanilla Marines. ^^

 

The basic chapter tactic is ours plus gives a free WL trait to all characters. We havent see their stratagems yet, but I would presume many of them will focus on getting units into combat. I'd expect a fury of the forlorn copy for blood/sky/bike claws letting them move up the board earlier. Some advance and charge rule for wulfen either natively or on stratagem, etc. 

[Indefragable]

+1 To Hit makes their line units (anything not a WS2+) amazingly good. A Chaplain/Wolf Priest (whatever Fenris calls it) now becomes a true above-and-beyond as opposed to a needed buff.

 

However, for characters that are already WS2+, it’s far less useful unless you bring weapons like Thunder hammers and power fists. So it’s almost a bit restrictive in the sense that unless you’re bringing a TH or such, you’re “wasting” the +1 To Hit on Characters...

 

...which is why GW also gave them the 6” Heroic Intervention. I can see the logic there.

 

As 8th edition launch wraps up, it seems that BA are ultimately a “finesse” force once again. The other two premiere melee forces of the Astartes (Black Templar, Space Wolves) are both much more “point and stab” in terms of their playstyles. BT’s re-rolls to charge and SW’s boost to hitting mean that both forces are straightforward in enabling a player to reliably beat things down. BA, on the other hand, have a far higher threshold for maximum damage output, but it requires far more strategic thinking to successfully employ. Definitely going to be some interesting match-ups.

[Panzer]

 

I don't see the power creep just yet. If you think about it lots of what makes Blood Angels better than vanilla Marines comes from stacking buffs on our Captain and being able to actually bring our melee units into melee via Stratagems. The +1 to-wound is nice but that alone wouldn't make us that much better than vanilla Marines. ^^

 

The basic chapter tactic is ours plus gives a free WL trait to all characters. We havent see their stratagems yet, but I would presume many of them will focus on getting units into combat. I'd expect a fury of the forlorn copy for blood/sky/bike claws letting them move up the board earlier. Some advance and charge rule for wulfen either natively or on stratagem, etc. 

 

 

It's a free WL trait nobody really uses anyway. Even if the +1D WL trait didn't exist I'd probably take soulwarden over being able to do 6" Heroic Interventions.

 

About the Stratagems ... yeah they could get stuff like that. Or crap Stratagems like Dark Angels. We simply don't know yet so it's too early to call them out for power creep.

[Brother Crimson]

It will depend on matchup(and stratagems of course).

 

Maybe space wolf will have the edge vs blood angel but blood angel are better against knights and lord of wars.

 

It is also a lot easier to get reroll to hit (chaplain) than to wound (only reroll 1) bonus to wound is more useful in that regard.

 

In the end tho we all know it’s gonna end with 3 wolf lords and a bunch of guards for CP engine, until they change detachement that’s pretty much how imperium army will run.

[Xenith]

 

We simply don't know yet so it's too early to call them out for power creep.

 

Agree, so I'm not going to worry about it. GW seems to be decent at balancing thing on the fly these days.

 

We'll likely see another SM codex in a year or so anyway which might balance things up. 

[Panzer]

Also considering Marines are on the weaker side currently, any Power creep for the Space Wolves is potentially just proper balancing with the other already released Codexes anyway. The next Chapter Approved should be interesting. ^^

[Charlo]

 

 

I don't see the power creep just yet. If you think about it lots of what makes Blood Angels better than vanilla Marines comes from stacking buffs on our Captain and being able to actually bring our melee units into melee via Stratagems. The +1 to-wound is nice but that alone wouldn't make us that much better than vanilla Marines. ^^

 

The basic chapter tactic is ours plus gives a free WL trait to all characters. We havent see their stratagems yet, but I would presume many of them will focus on getting units into combat. I'd expect a fury of the forlorn copy for blood/sky/bike claws letting them move up the board earlier. Some advance and charge rule for wulfen either natively or on stratagem, etc. 

 

 

It's a free WL trait nobody really uses anyway. Even if the +1D WL trait didn't exist I'd probably take soulwarden over being able to do 6" Heroic Interventions.

 

Yes but it's a free warlord trait on every single character model.

 

We don't take it as we are locked into a single one and the other options perform better.

[Panzer]

Yeah I know that. I don't see it being that broken or anything tho. Let them have their special stuff, I don't care lol

[Orblivion]

I'm really not too concerned about Hunters Unleashed at this point, as my lists focus more on mobile shooting and hard-hitting CC.  None of my units are really designed to tough it out in a protracted melee.  So if I continue to play my list the way I do now, their +1 to hit won't do them a lot of good.  My only concern is their history of Counterattack mechanics, I'll be worried if they get some kind of stratagem that allows them to attack first even if they are charged.

[Indefragable]

I'm really not too concerned about Hunters Unleashed at this point, as my lists focus more on mobile shooting and hard-hitting CC.  None of my units are really designed to tough it out in a protracted melee.  So if I continue to play my list the way I do now, their +1 to hit won't do them a lot of good.  My only concern is their history of Counterattack mechanics, I'll be worried if they get some kind of stratagem that allows them to attack first even if they are charged.

 

Well, there is the universal one "Counter-Offensive"....

[Orblivion]

 

I'm really not too concerned about Hunters Unleashed at this point, as my lists focus more on mobile shooting and hard-hitting CC.  None of my units are really designed to tough it out in a protracted melee.  So if I continue to play my list the way I do now, their +1 to hit won't do them a lot of good.  My only concern is their history of Counterattack mechanics, I'll be worried if they get some kind of stratagem that allows them to attack first even if they are charged.

 

Well, there is the universal one "Counter-Offensive"....

 

 

Yes but that's still after a charging unit has fought, I'm talking about something to be the first unit to fight.  It's not really worth thinking about much, since its pure speculation on my part, I'm just saying that would be something that could make them a problem for us.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

I'm really not too concerned about Hunters Unleashed at this point, as my lists focus more on mobile shooting and hard-hitting CC.  None of my units are really designed to tough it out in a protracted melee.  So if I continue to play my list the way I do now, their +1 to hit won't do them a lot of good.  My only concern is their history of Counterattack mechanics, I'll be worried if they get some kind of stratagem that allows them to attack first even if they are charged.

 

Well, there is the universal one "Counter-Offensive"....

 

 

Yes but that's still after a charging unit has fought, I'm talking about something to be the first unit to fight.  It's not really worth thinking about much, since its pure speculation on my part, I'm just saying that would be something that could make them a problem for us.

 

 

The Wolves will likely get something that falls into the 1 or 3 CP range, selecting a number of units based on the CP put into the Strategem in that charge sequence.

 

I really do see how the Wolves are going to be, in the hands of those that can use the Wolves rules kit to full advantage, in a word, terrifying on the table.

 

The single greatest strength in the fluff for the Wolves is the Hunt, and, as the culmination of the Hunt, the charge, or be charged, or intercept a pack mate getting charged instead of letting a friend that cannot take the intended hit. The rub will be getting the CC units into melee; however, with Teleport an option, any strategem to possibly charge from Deep Strike, even if deployed outside 9" will be both expensive, and downright game changing, too.

 

Still, we all will know more on Friday.

[Panzer]

The proper counter attack rule would've been always strikes first in the current ruleset however that would've been kinda weird since GW gave that rule to those more nimble units/factions like Slaaneshi etc.

It also seems like while GW doesn't mind giving several factions the same army wide rule they still try to make BA, DA, SW and the big 4 Chaos legions into something more special without any copied army wide rules.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

On average a BA player brings 2-3 really scary melee units.

 

Captain Smash, Death Company, Mephiston, or Sanguinary guard in some order.

 

The lists that run all four are sub par lists as you dont really have enough dakka after that.

 

So what's the big deal? You play around their melee units with your own. Yes Wulfen are going to be scary, yes their characters are going to be hero hammer 2.0 but odds are you aren't going to see a huge deviation from one list to the next.

 

If they run lots of wolf riders and wulfen then they are going to be shot off the board.

 

It's going to be a balance about like what you see in competition. CP farming guard with wolves being the hammer.

 

Their mobility will be different and if they intervene with multiple characters your weight of attacks are going to bring them down. Because a full squad of DC that gets the charge off will split its attacks. Etc.

 

It's really going to come down to if you think risk is worth the reward with regards to multiple charges going off simultaneously.

 

Specifically speaking about chapter tactic vs chapter tactic.

 

Thunder hammers and power fists become expensive en masse.

 

Last thoughts: remember it works both ways, we can interrupt where we need to also. Even before this confirmed chapter tactic, the rule of thumb has always been, pick the unit you want to deal the most damage first when multi-charging.

[Karhedron]

BAs and SWs have frequently jokeyed for position of premiere Astartes melee army. Our unique assault units like DC and SG face off against Wulfen and TWC. Nor suprisingly, I suspect victory will go to whoever manages to use the tools at their disposal the best.

 

If you let Long fangs with plasma cannons draw a bead on your SG, that is not going to end well. On the other hand, if you use UWOF to drop some Inceptors where they can start blowing away key SW units, you may do well.

 

Shoot the choppy and chop the shooty has been standard advice for 40K for as many editions as I can remember and this matchup will be no different. Whoever can inflict the most damage on the enemy's best units before the all-important grand melee will be vital.

 

One thing that does occur to me is that BAs should have a mobility edge over Wolves. Jump Packs are faster than TWC and Wulfen normally require a transport to bring them to battle. They can use their stragagen to outflank them but that can be blocked by screening with our cost-effective Scouts (another unit Wolves currently lack). Bring enough anti-tank to shoot down the Wulfen's party bus and you should be onto a good start.

 

If you are willing to soup, it occurs to me that Armiger Helverins look very good on paper vs wolves. High RoF and flat 3 damage will really but the hurt on both TWC and Wulfen as it minimises the benefit of any Storm Shields and each failed save should be a kill. Armigers are also a good bet to help take down any SW flyers with their "SkyReaper Protocols".