mc warhammer Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 ha, i kinda doubt that just because swallow hasn't 100% locked down his concept that they'll take the book off him. anyway, almost every author in the BL stable that i'm not a fan of has managed to pull out at least one story that worked for me...so fingers crossed on this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 @LetsYouDown "Is there actually a single Heresy story that includes the White Scars and isn't written by Chris Wraight?" Fallen Angels or Descent of Angels (forget which one) has the WS handing over a planet to the DA Unremembered Empire has WS stranded in Ultramar Little Horus has Hibou Khan severely disfiguring Aximand's face Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 wraight clearly owns the scars, but i wouldn't mind seeing another author dig deep with them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Depends on who that other authour is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 well yeah, i think wanting a quality author goes without saying. though if anyone has been dying for a crap author to tackle the scars, feel free to comment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Rob Mac can write some good scars, as seen in the last hunt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I hope with the Khan having become a real fan favourite we don't get him cheesily kicking Demon Primarch ass at the Siege. the mentions of him taking on Demon Fulgrim have me a bit worried we might get a generic " overconfident villain finally gets whipped" sort of fight. Especially with Fulgrim being to a large extent a disposable enemy now as a full warp entity. I'd rather see him killed if it's to be a stand up fight against either of those two. Getting slowly ground down by a now powered up, but now enslaved Mortarion while trying to hold some vital objective is a better end and can be satisfyingly thematically linked to their debate in Scars, rather than chasing some Eldar into the Webway years later. We've already had enough inconclusive Primarch fights, i want real stakes-serious injury-if not death for any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 @ mc warhammer I think the risk of handing WS to another authour is rather high You're more likely to end up with someone like Thorpe, Kyme, Swallow, Annandale than ADB or French Also, I'm not sure authours you think would be good for the WS are the same as my list. Safest bet IMO would be to let Wraight handle them unless he wants to let others take a crack @ Fedor It would be odd for Khan to spank Daemon Fulgrim, but I don't think it would be odd for Khan to beat Fulgrim (or Mortarion) with some focused support It's certainly your prerogative to prefer Khan's death to Khan's victory over one of his traitorous brother, but I think it's unlikely in light of the hints in The Last Hunt. I also don't think GW/BL would kill off a primarch just to "up the stakes". Horus, Sang, Ferrus, Alpharius, and Curze are all dead as door nails by the end of/shortly after the HH. Stakes are pretty high already. P.S. Though Yesugei does have a vision of Khan falling to a spectre of death...you could keep your fingers crossed for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 If it's something more than just a straight duel that the Khan eventually triumphs in i doubt i'll have much issue with it. Straight up, protracted close combat should ideally come with a cost though, for all of them. Good call about yesugei's vision, i had forgotten about that. Ultimately i doubt we get another surprise Primarch death though, not with the scene being set for the return of them in the current timeline. Khan would be easiest to retcon in and have it carry thematic weight, he doesn't really have any post-siege mentions in the lore other than his disappearance that i can think of. Omegon they can really do anything with, if he even shows up. Back on The Buried Dagger, i was worried this would be a split 50/50 sort of narrative since i heard Garro was in it. I really hope the DG get the chance for their story to be mostly front and centre. I think back to Vengeful Spirit which i think a lot of us were hoping was going to be much more character\single legion focused around the SOH and then turned out to be a big tons of viewpoints battle book with only a little character work on Horus. Hopefully Swallow avoids that. The whole idea of the DG slowly succumbing and trapped on their ships really cries out for a claustrophobic, focused narrative imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 @Taliesin: Thanks for clarifying. Seemed like I was too excited about the entire Fest that I've forgotten some bits. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 @ Fedor Daemon Fulgrim seems beyond any loyalist Primarch in a 1v1 duel That said, I do like the idea that loyalist Primarchs may be buffed by Warp exposure without succumbing to Chaos corruption (e.g. Corax hunting Lorgar around the Eye). However, standard Khan should fare poorly against Daemon Prince Fulgrim or "Chaos Lord" Mortarion. On Buried Dagger, I doubt Swallow's ability to properly chart the DG's Chaos corruption in a convincing mannner. The way he handled Decius' individual corruption was predictable and cliched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I am extremely disappointed that this willl be a shared with Garro and the Knights Errants I fail to see why they should be included at all and I’ll be even more annoyed if they somehow get tied into the Death Guard’s fate when it has always been tied to the actions of Mortarion and Typhus which caused the Death Guard to fall to Nurgle. Ever since Flight of the Eisenstein I have always been hoping for a Horus Heresy novel solely about the Death Guard legion and those who turned traitor not ones like Garro. I’m worried about their inclusion as if they have nothing to do with the Death Guard’s fall it’ll just take away from the Death Guard’s fate yet if they do have a part it’ll just cheapen the Death Guard’s fate. I am also not a big fan of James Swallow’s work either though hopefully it is actually done well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I was going to say that people are fairly split over James Swallow but actually I think the majority seem to not like his work. Personally I think his work is hit or miss. I really liked FotE and Nemesis (even though the latter at times felt a bit manga for my taste*). I actually enjoyed Fear to Tread as well and never really got the hate it seems to receive. Not been a particular fan of the Knights Errant/ Garro stuff as it all feels too damn convenient and easy for them to whizz all over the galaxy kicking ass A-Team style...that just doesn't fit with my head cannon for the 30/40k universe and warp travel etc. Gonna reserve judgement on The Buried Dagger but like others, not hopeful now I know the Knights Errant are to be included urgh! *we often see Dan Abnett accused of not feeling like 30/40k in some of his work and it reflecting his wide ranging material in other IP and particularly comics. However, I think James Swallow is more "guilty" of this than Abnett. Out of all the authors I think Swallow is the one who lacks a distinct 30/40k voice when writing for Black Library and instead has shades and flavours of other IP in his work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5149853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 @LetsYouDown "Is there actually a single Heresy story that includes the White Scars and isn't written by Chris Wraight?" Fallen Angels or Descent of Angels (forget which one) has the WS handing over a planet to the DA Unremembered Empire has WS stranded in Ultramar Little Horus has Hibou Khan severely disfiguring Aximand's face John French's Templar had Jubal duel with Sigismund too. I'd be happy to see Abnett or French further Hibou's story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5150242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Khan makes brief appearances in Now Peals Midnight and Wolfsbane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5150640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Despite viewing Swallow as "acceptable" (much like 80% of Haley, for that matter, much of this optimism also applies to Titandeath), I can;t really help but be excited for this. Indeed, it may be another case of Garro stealing the spotlight from a legion that desperately needs fleshing out, but it also has plenty of the ingredients that can make it a winner. Malcador and Terra are good points of focus for the last pre-siege book, and that the book is about a fall to Nurgle means Swallow can't really pull a Fear to Tread before the corruption takes place (that is, to make the 30k legion all but identical to their 40k selves). If nothing else, FotE portrayed Mortarion as an entirely reasonable father figure, so we should be spared the cackling madman that traitor Primarchs frequently turn in to in the hands of less than stellar authors (poor, poor Konrad Curze). So yeah, bring it on. I hope Swallow is self-aware enough to focus on the plot points the fanbase seems to be pining for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5150647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I'll fully admit I haven't picked up a HH book since Betrayer. I read my fair share of disappointment and I feel I ended my investment into the literary portion of GW on an extremely high note. One of the reasons I put the books down was the unnecessary drawing out of the timeline and the complete absence more or less of my Legion. I enjoyed Flight of the Eisenstein but felt a bit let down with the wasted opportunity to give more insight into the XIVth. I'm hoping this novel won't let me down but I have a bad feeling it's going to focus more on Garro. I like his character and I do believe he needs to be involved in the fall of the Legion (it would feel wrong if he wasn't). I just don't think Swallow can multi-task, he's been known to struggle with it in his other novels. I'm also kind of hoping we find out what the Lords of Barbarus actually were, be it Drukhari, some other xenos race, or simply Nurgle worshipping (post)humans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5150854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I’d like to see the undead xenos tyrant creature that raise Morty get some page time, though that may be more for the primarch series novel I suppose. As would I. Is it ever stated what species raised him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Please stay on the topic of the book - anything else should be taken to the appropriate part of the B&C. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 @ Fedor Daemon Fulgrim seems beyond any loyalist Primarch in a 1v1 duel That said, I do like the idea that loyalist Primarchs may be buffed by Warp exposure without succumbing to Chaos corruption (e.g. Corax hunting Lorgar around the Eye). However, standard Khan should fare poorly against Daemon Prince Fulgrim or "Chaos Lord" Mortarion. On Buried Dagger, I doubt Swallow's ability to properly chart the DG's Chaos corruption in a convincing mannner. The way he handled Decius' individual corruption was predictable and cliched. I don't see how Decius' corruption was predictable and cliched..... inevitable yes...… cliched no...…. tragic yes. I for one think Swallow will do fine with the DG. I like his rich prose, and coupled with a good story (FotE, FTT, and the Garro stories come to mind) he really engages me. I know there is a lot of hate out there for Swallow's work and in truth he is hit or miss for me (Nemesis, Deus Encarmine, Deus Sanguinius come to mind) but mostly hit for me. I don't think for a moment I can change anyone's mind on this so I'll just be content to be a tiny beacon of light for Mr. Swallow. I think he has the right take on Mortarion and the Death Guard, so I look forward to The Buried Dagger. For those who do not like James Swallow, look at the bright side...… more fuel to hate him with …. and before you say it, "To each his own." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Yeah...I couldn't stand the parts of the book about Decius' growing taint, which were many IIRC. I got about two thirds of the way through the book and gave up. Different strokes I guess...it could just be my personal perception of Swallow's prose as incredibly bland, like Thorpe's. I had the same problem with Nemesis and, especially, Fear to Tread. I have never managed to finish one of his novels. I started reading FotE around 2008/2009 so my memory is a bit hazy. I just remember really not liking the handling of Decius. EDIT: I just want to add that I do not "hate" Swallow. I've never met the bloke, and people who have seem to find him a decent fellow. However, I do find his prose to be very unpalatable, but that is based on my personal taste. Quite a few readers seem to quite like his prose. Sometimes I might level some harsh criticisms, but that is always directed at his writing, not at his person. Sorry if it comes across otherwise at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashur Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I'm also kind of hoping we find out what the Lords of Barbarus actually were, be it Drukhari, some other xenos race, or simply Nurgle worshipping (post)humans. I actually hope we will never know that. I was dissapointed when we got to see Angron's homeworld in Massacre. I would rather let mysteries be. It would keep thing interesting to see Mortarion back in Barbarus without ever describing the lord in to much detail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Didn't Nuceria figure prominently in Betrayer as well? Was that disappointing to you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Yeah...I couldn't stand the parts of the book about Decius' growing taint, which were many IIRC. I got about two thirds of the way through the book and gave up. Different strokes I guess...it could just be my personal perception of Swallow's prose as incredibly bland, like Thorpe's. I had the same problem with Nemesis and, especially, Fear to Tread. I have never managed to finish one of his novels. I started reading FotE around 2008/2009 so my memory is a bit hazy. I just remember really not liking the handling of Decius. EDIT: I just want to add that I do not "hate" Swallow. I've never met the bloke, and people who have seem to find him a decent fellow. However, I do find his prose to be very unpalatable, but that is based on my personal taste. Quite a few readers seem to quite like his prose. Sometimes I might level some harsh criticisms, but that is always directed at his writing, not at his person. Sorry if it comes across otherwise at times. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone actually "hate" James Swallow. If anyone took it that way, I apologize. Poor choice of wording on my part. I know it's a bit off topic and I hope the Mods will be patient with me for a moment..... What did you not like about the way Decius' corruption was handled?.... What were you looking for? Just interested Swallows prose is without question, thick and some find it to be thick like mud. I should say I like lots of different styles and his (when his story works) is just one of them. The only BL writer I've come across that has never completely disappointed me is Dan Abnett. I find his style so pleasing that even when he comes up short, it's a good read and not time wasted. If the story itself works then so will his style.... if not then it won't and it will be just another disappointing HH novel and I've been through quite a few of those. Swallow's works have pleased me more than not, so I have high hopes for BD. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5151648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Unfortunately, Swallow is now in a position where he has a lot to go up against. Lords of Silence is the very book I have been looking for in a DG book. Albeit set In the 42nd millennium it gives all the information you could want but gives space for expansion. It goes into details on Barbarus, small mentions of the legion pre corruption including typhon, mortarion and a few other snippets. It also mentions That The Death Guard were the last to arrive on terra as confirmed now by this book which means that we might see a little bit of the siege in this in book Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349671-hh-5-the-buried-dagger/page/3/#findComment-5152471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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