Brother Raul Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Brothers, What are your experiences with anti Armour in 8th? Haven't played yet and now armour facing is gone and a few changes to AP have been made where is it all at? It's a bit of a meta/subjective question I know but say your filling out a brigade detachment and have those fast and heavy slots to fill. How would you spend them for anti Armour? Have a little bit built into my sang guard (have 2 models with fists and inferno pistols for armour heavy lists) and DC with hammers but want something more dedicated since a brigade will mean the opposition have enough points to bring a few big guns. I am leaning towards a land speeder with a multi melta (or 2) probably 2 devs squads with a lascannon and maybe even the craziness of an assault squad with 3 inferno pistols. Think a inferno pistol maybe better than a melta gun now for jump pack, what are your thoughts? Cheaper. The points difference on a combi and 4 melta guns for 2 5 man squads would pay for the rhino to get up close (3 inch) Thanks brothers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsky25 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Land Speeders always tempt me because I find they feel much more like a Blood Angels solutions to Anti-tank, however they really didn't transition to 8th comparatively well. At only T5 W6 they go down very fast, and only hit on 4+ after moving which they will be doing to get in range. This wouldn't be a deal breaker if they were cheap - but it's only a 16 point increase from a 2x Multi-Melta Land Speeder to a 2x Las Cannon Predator - almost twice the wounds and much tougher. Additionally if you need to double the shots the Predator can simply tack on Las Cannon sponsons which will cost less than taking another Land Speeder, and be more durable than both combined. 2x Assault Squad in a rhino is an interesting idea but be aware it gives your opponent a turn to react before you get out of the vehicle in which time they can potentially move out of range, especially if you only have pistol range. Maybe I've misread your intended loadout. Personal preference is towards 2x Melta Guns and Jump Packs - the sergeant can't take a Combi-melta but he could take an inferno pistol if you want. This gives you anti-tank where you want (if not a lot of it) and can pair well with the strategem Upon Wings of Fire. I have little to add in solutions beyond that, it's a question I face as well. I've been utilizing a Stormraven kitted with anti-tank and a Land Raider which together do the job, but devastators and a predator or two would likely be much more efficient in terms of BA ranged anti-tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHelion Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I'm a firm fan of a squad of Devastators with heavy weapons, being babysat by a Lieutenant. I take a pair of Lacannons and a pair of Missile launchers, which gives access to the Flakk Missile stratagem, and provides a solid amount of heavy firepower. You could trade one of the Missile Launchers for a Heavy Bolter, to use the Hellfire Shells statagem, as well. Give the Heavy Bolter the Sgt's Signum, use the strategem, and then expend an Armourium Cherub to let the Heavy Bolter shoot again, still using the Hellfire Shells, and still getting +1 from the signum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 My favorite anti tank unit is unit of 7 devs (for ablative wounds), with 3 lascannons, and 1 heavy bolter for the stated above hellfire shell usage. Captain Slam is also disgustingly good at popping tanks, but usually only gets one, so you'd better make it worth it, so usually best pointed at something like a knight/baneblade/pask. Predators are solidly ok when equipped with lascannons, sadly land speeders are currently just bad. Squishy, pay a lot of points for mobility you end up not using, as they can hardly hit if they move. Funnily enough, I've had amazing luck with single mm attack bikes. Only 1 shot that hits on 4s, but their much easier to hide than a land speeder, and are much cheaper. Cheap enough to be used as screen units, gum up the works against shooty units, and just tough enough to be annoying, but not normally threatening enough to have the big guns pointed at it. But I'd say it's probably just luck, as I hit with them much more than I should. But that's usually the case with me and melta, but I have the absolute worst luck with plasma to balance it, we're talking 10 plasma shots, 6 overheats multiple times in a game level of bad. But my 2 single mm attack bikes firing at an alaitoc fighter hitting on 6s roll boxcars, 2 wounds, and max damage everytime, so idk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 A Dev squad (7-8 men, 3 TL and 1 PC) and Captain Smash and I my goto units. I also run a DC with a few PFs (until I get around to adding some Thunder Hammers) and they do good work too. They do well but struggle against really tough opposition like DG daemon engine spam. I haven't faced any knights yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semirhagge Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Bout to try some double melta tacticals in Lasbacks for a 1500 point tournament. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Slam Cpts are our best anti armor and they wreck Knights too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaniss Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 I really don't recommend Land Speeders in 8th, I'm with burningsky25 - they are pricey and fairly fragile, which could be acceptable if they also didn't suffer from -1 to Hit from moving. It all adds up to an inefficient and disappointing unit I'm afraid. Which is frustrating as I want to use mine as I recently repainted it :P Dev squads have been mentioned a few times and for good reason as they've seen a resurgence in 8th which is lovely to see - all those blue helmeted Marines being dusted off! Lascannons are pretty amazing if you can reliably roll well for Damage. Rolling a 5 or more on a D6 for damage can really ruin someone's day so add my vote to using some :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Also don't forget about the Heavy Bolter in a Dev Squad. Use the Stratagem to deal 1d3 mortal wounds and let him shoot twice. That's more than any Lascannon does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaniss Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Also don't forget about the Heavy Bolter in a Dev Squad. Use the Stratagem to deal 1d3 mortal wounds and let him shoot twice. That's more than any Lascannon does. I keep forgetting about this! One day I'll use it, though the heady dream of 6 Mortal Wounds is unlikely I guess :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5148989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Thank you brothers. Your collective experiences and advice are much appreciated. Had a romantic notion of charging a tank with those ASM with inferno pistols as a cheap option but maybe puting the cart before the horse as they could be squished in a round of charging something choppy. Still trying to math hammer 2 squads with 6 pistols between them with scenarios and it is possible in some of them. Could even spend another couple of melta bombs to make it 8 pistols. A good point many of you all raise is the -1 to hit from mobile melta/lascannons. A very important consideration and I forget I am not reading a certain necrophiliac substance abusing Xenos codex. The devs do sound like they are a big deal now. Cheaper and the Cherub's 8th ed rules are insanely powerful for a melta bomb cost. 2+ shooting is also really, really nice. I think the Hellfire strat may not be worth the cp is you could always spend it on a lascannon reroll IF you roll a 1 for wounds. Keep the advice comming! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5150918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Thank you brothers. Your collective experiences and advice are much appreciated. Had a romantic notion of charging a tank with those ASM with inferno pistols as a cheap option but maybe puting the cart before the horse as they could be squished in a round of charging something choppy. Still trying to math hammer 2 squads with 6 pistols between them with scenarios and it is possible in some of them. Could even spend another couple of melta bombs to make it 8 pistols. A good point many of you all raise is the -1 to hit from mobile melta/lascannons. A very important consideration and I forget I am not reading a certain necrophiliac substance abusing Xenos codex. The devs do sound like they are a big deal now. Cheaper and the Cherub's 8th ed rules are insanely powerful for a melta bomb cost. 2+ shooting is also really, really nice. I think the Hellfire strat may not be worth the cp is you could always spend it on a lascannon reroll IF you roll a 1 for wounds. Keep the advice comming! Well, you can do both. And against something really tough, like knocking the last few wounds of a Castellan with a 3++ or Mortarion, or for example, an annoying unit of dark reapers in cover, hellfire is invaluable when you combine it with the signum+cherub. Putting 2d3 wounds on something, with no save or anything to mitigate it other than a fnp equivalen, is absolutely huge. Unfortunately, assault squads are garbage tier. Yeah, you can pay a lot of pts and get 4 melta pistols in a single squad. Or you could just buy lascannons that will actually get to shoot more than maybe 1 time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5150963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaniss Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Putting 2d3 wounds on something, with no save or anything to mitigate it other than a fnp equivalen, is absolutely huge. Unfortunately, assault squads are garbage tier. Yeah, you can pay a lot of pts and get 4 melta pistols in a single squad. Or you could just buy lascannons that will actually get to shoot more than maybe 1 time. Indeed, can't stress how useful delivering Mortal Wounds at a considerable range is. We all know how frustrating it is to have a big gun bounce off an Invulnerable Save. I still love my Assault Marines, they're thematic for my BA and they look great but the times have not been kind to them. To get mileage out of them you're going to want to make sure they are buffed by support characters. The only justification for doing this beyond a determination to use Assault Marines (for our invaluable character buffs) is if you're trying to scrimp on points. There are plenty of better options to use your buffs on for damage output and even for more survivability. BUT if you want awesome red Marines with characterful yellow assault helmets then these are your guys :D Brother Raul if you are determined to use Inferno Pistols (and I applaud this) then maybe use them on your Sergeants? Firing one in your shooting phase while your unit is in melee will be an unpleasant surprise for your opponent ;) I've found them to be quite nice when used this way. Certainly removes the whole range drawback! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5151023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted August 26, 2018 Author Share Posted August 26, 2018 Again, very much appreciate the advice and you all sharing your TT experience. The more I break it down the more Captain Smashguinius stands out as a clear winner in Anti Armour. He is hardly wasted if you have zero armoured targets too. Reassessing ASM completely now that the 9" deep strike is gone and can't see any reason Las devs aren't the go too now. Part of me wants to run dual multi melta sternguard but point for point it's not viable and doesn't produce great to hit results as will probably cop a -1 to hit and no signs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5154068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 The venator is absolute gold. Would strongly recommend the basic one for 180. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5154157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyros Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Humoristic intermission..... http://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/20180731_141832.jpg (Not mine, but I want one!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5155771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slothysaur Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Why must FW be so amazing looking? Gah, I need all the FW things! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majkhel Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Humoristic intermission..... http://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/20180731_141832.jpg (Not mine, but I want one!) That's a Falchion right? What a beast! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The4thHorseman Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 x Melta Devs in a Termite with Cap and LT are funny as hell. Literally a Melta Bomb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Humoristic intermission..... http://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/20180731_141832.jpg (Not mine, but I want one!) That's a Falchion right? What a beast! OMG!!?!?! I've never seen this before. What is it!? edit* oooooooh....it's a Baneblade variant Boooo..... I'm suddenly sad again lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Okay, I just read the rules.....it's mad sexy. Never seen anything like that before. Really pricey though in terms of points cost. But, wow. For big games, this is a monster. 2d6x S16, -5, 2d6 Damage shots ?! Yes, Please!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyros Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 And re-rolls failed wound rolls versus titanic units ;) This is what you need when you face large Knight armies and you don't want to bring Knights yourself. "There was a Knight... now there isn't!" The Relic Cerberus is a cheaper option at about 2/3 points cost, but I find its Heavy Neutron Pulse Array significantly weaker. Indeed, I don't plan to get a Knight or two, but a true Astartes vehicle like the Relic Falchion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5156963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 SM vehicles are handy in that they benefit from the reroll auras of characters and can be repaired by our techmarines. The flip-side is the price (both cash and points) of Forgeworld combined with the fact that not everyone is cool with playing FW toys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5157055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Also that Marines (and Custodes) are literally the only ones who have their army wide rules not apply to their vehicles. Any Eldar, T'au, AM, AdMech, Necron and probably soon Ork army can use their army wide rules on their vehicles, just Space Marines (and Custodes) can't. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5157057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 GKs don't get benefits on their vehicles either IIRC but they wer bubbling under anyway. I was rather hoping that SWs would get their chapter trait on all units as a precursor to all SM armies getting the same in Chapter Approved but it was not to be. However some Chapter traits work far better on vehicles than others. +1 to wound on the first round of melee doesn't really benefit most vehicles much. On the other hand -1 to Hit against vehicles would see most people switching the Raven Guard overnight! Maybe GW will consider if they want to boost sales of black spray cans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/#findComment-5157064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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