Ishagu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Why is no one championing the Sicaran Venator? An amazing, fast moving tank with fantastic firepower and a cheap cost! The best anti tank Astartes have. I might even get a second one! And it looks so damn good! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 GKs don't get benefits on their vehicles either IIRC but they wer bubbling under anyway. I was rather hoping that SWs would get their chapter trait on all units as a precursor to all SM armies getting the same in Chapter Approved but it was not to be. However some Chapter traits work far better on vehicles than others. +1 to wound on the first round of melee doesn't really benefit most vehicles much. On the other hand -1 to Hit against vehicles would see most people switching the Raven Guard overnight! Maybe GW will consider if they want to boost sales of black spray cans. GK ARE Marines lol Also yes some traits work better on vehicles than others. The SW one for example would be great giving vehicles +1 to hit, or the UM one so a Landraider could fall back and keep shooting etc. However as we've seen before it's possible to have a trait give vehicles one benefit and everyone else a different benefit. Just one more thing where Marine Codexes could get improved. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Okay, I just read the rules.....it's mad sexy. Never seen anything like that before. Really pricey though in terms of points cost. But, wow. For big games, this is a monster. 2d6x S16, -5, 2d6 Damage shots ?! Yes, Please!! Its basically adding a Knight Crusader to your army. I've been looking at a shadow sword. Three kitted for bear is like 1630ish points. But 108 heavy bolter shots, 10 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons that are BS3 against Imperial knights is kinda bonkers. Plus each one can shoot its heavy bolts into close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I do quite like that Sicaran Venators. Access to it across the pond is limited. And having to pay UK taxes is absolutely gross. (No offense meant everyone) I haven't made it to any premier events in the U.S. this year in order to grab some of the forgeworld stuff they bring, perhaps I will take a look at getting one if I can go to Warzone Atlanta this year. I know they usually have a booth set up at Dragon Con, but I'm going to be on holiday the week of that event. /:I have allied knights to help against armor, but I am taking a serious look at a Shadowsword that could be readily available to me and costs about as much as a knight, that puts out arguably more fire power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Having vehicles advance before the game starts would be sick. Instant ~15" bigger deployment zone for anything in Rhinos, Razorbacks, Landraider and Repulsors lmao Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Why is no one championing the Sicaran Venator? An amazing, fast moving tank with fantastic firepower and a cheap cost! The best anti tank Astartes have. I might even get a second one! I am not hugely impressed by the Venator. 180 points bare-bones IIRC for 3 slightly improved lascannon shots. The same points will net you a Dev squad with 4 Lascannons and a couple of ablative bodies and you can get 5 shots on a turn thanks to the armorium cherub. The Sicaran has an edge in mobility and durability but less outright firepower than a Dev squad. The -1 to Hit debuff on the target is nice, particularly against a shooty Knight but hardly puts the Venator into the must-have category IMHO. It is not significantly better point-for-point than a Predator Annihilator and they are hardly the gold standard of anti-tank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 230 points with all upgrades for a tough and fast vehicle with no movement penalty and a favourable damage bracket. Why would you not include the Las Cannons? Str 12 is very useful,as is Ap-4 and the BS penalty. Assume this was a Predator with 5 Las Cannons and a Heavy bolter - it would cost 225 points! This is harder to destroy then a Dev Squad, is easier to hide thanks to the mobility and will not become ineffective upon re-positioning. There is no comparison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 OK, 230 points for 5 lascannon-equiv shots. In reality the S12 will not make a difference against T7 and T8 targets. The extra point of AP is useful unless the target has an invulnerable save like Knights. That works out at 46 points per shot. The Predator works out at 47.5 points per shot. I suppose when you factor in the 3 extra wounds, better mobilty and debuff, the Venator does edge ahead. Still expensive cash-wise and only useful if your meta allows forgeworld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 You're really selling that mobility short. It's pivotal and makes a big difference. This is the only dedicated anti tank unit Marines can access that actually performs when stacked against units from other forces. Out of curiosity, do people still come across "hobbyists" (or anti-hobbyists to be precise) who tell them what models they can and can't use? If I drop some lovingly painted FW models down I can't imagine people being upset, especially as now FW is no longer broken or over-powered in any situation. Surely this isn't really a thing anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 FW still has quite a stigma in my area and is pretty much regarded as being by opponent's consent only. I don't play tournies anymore so I don't know what the scene is like there. To be honest, now that you can field an army of Knights from a regular codex, I think the stigma is outdated. But a lot of people still assume if your are bringing FW, you are "that guy". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Old fashioned. Gotta rise up an tell those people to stop dictating the hobby for others. It's about expression and love of the universe. Building and painting Forgeworld is a labour of love, and is expensive. In effect the people who use FW models are dedicated hobbyists in most cases. GW say it's ok, so it's ok. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Old fashioned. Gotta rise up an tell those people to stop dictating the hobby for others. It's about expression and love of the universe. Building and painting Forgeworld is a labour of love, and is expensive. In effect the people who use FW models are dedicated hobbyists in most cases. GW say it's ok, so it's ok. In my <REDACTED> army, I play forgeworld models. A Malathrope and Dimacheron aren't over powered and everyone i play usually accepts them in my lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5157406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 The more I look at lemartes the more I think anti tank too. The blood crozius is a decent anti Armour choice as well as Lemartes having a good number of attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5158023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Backing up a bit, how are you getting the 2d3 for hellfire shells? It seems to me its pretty explicit in only making one attack this phase? I find it a tough sell to say honor the chapter would allow a second use and you cant repeat the strat? What am I missing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5158312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Backing up a bit, how are you getting the 2d3 for hellfire shells? It seems to me its pretty explicit in only making one attack this phase? I find it a tough sell to say honor the chapter would allow a second use and you cant repeat the strat? What am I missing? Armour Cherub on heavy bolter devs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5158362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Backing up a bit, how are you getting the 2d3 for hellfire shells? It seems to me its pretty explicit in only making one attack this phase? I find it a tough sell to say honor the chapter would allow a second use and you cant repeat the strat? What am I missing?Armour Cherub on heavy bolter devs. Ah there we go, thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5158455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I do a mix of antiarmor work using both CC and shooting. My ranged AT is mostly from a Lascannon Dred and a Lasback. I like the dred because of the Ancient strat which gives the dred a one turn captain aura. My up close AT work is Captain Smash and a couple units of Sanguinary Guard being buffed by the Sanguinor and a Saguinary Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice. Most glorious kill so far is bringing a Knight Valient down in one turn of CC. Captain did 15 wounds, a unit of Sanguinary Guard and the Sanguinor finished it off. Of course the reactor overload would have killed everyone if the Standard of Sacrifice had not been nearby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5160243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Why is no one championing the Sicaran Venator? An amazing, fast moving tank with fantastic firepower and a cheap cost! The best anti tank Astartes have. I might even get a second one! And it looks so damn good! Ummm..... The venator is absolute gold. Would strongly recommend the basic one for 180. The venator is absolute gold. Would strongly recommend the basic one for 180. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5160268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsky25 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 You know I was on the fence about the Sicaran Venator until this point - my preference was for the Xiphon Pattern Interceptor if including Forgeworld, and I think it's still a very reliable choice and situationally better. I am coming to be impressed as well with the Venator though and it's a less specialized choice. My main gripe with it was it's a Relic - requiring a matching slot taken in addition to it, and I had mistakenly assumed it was Heavy Support in which case taking two extra dev squads if you want two Venators can become a tax; Elite slots aren't going to be a tax to fill and that makes it very viable. The major bonus a Xiphon Pattern Interceptor will have over a Venator is it's ability to fall back and still shoot, and the built in -1 to hit, as well as hitting non-airborne Fly units on 2+. Also not a Relic. It does this for only 10 points more, but has marginally less firepower with only 4 lascannon shots and a specialized missile launcher. If you need something that has to be wholly independant I would go with the Interceptor, but the Venator is the better heavy hitter and provides some useful utility with the debuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What about Leviathans with 2x grav cannons? 2d3 shots, D5 to vehicles. It isn't the cheapest though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What about Leviathans with 2x grav cannons? 2d3 shots, D5 to vehicles. It isn't the cheapest though. The 5 fixed damage is nice but it is only D3 shots. Average damage output will be 10 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds and only 3 wounds getting passed the saves. In practice this likely means 5 damage assuming your opponent fails his 5++ save but it is swingy and unreliable. Also the range is only 18" meaning that your slow Leviathan has to trudge close to the Knight and then hope it does not get blown away or charged. If you give both arms Grav flux then on a good day, he might cause 10 wounds to a Knight but that relies on the Knight letting you engage on your terms. A knight has a 12" move and so can reliably charge a Leviathan from outside the 18" range of Grav. If you want to go FW, the Sicaran Venator is a probably the more promising option. It is fast, fairly tough and mounts guns that are roughly equivalent to 5 lascannons. The big deal though is that any target wounded by the Neutron laser suffers a -1 to Hit penalty in its next shooting phase. If you are shooting at a Crusader or Castellan, that is a LOT of shooting you will be nerfing. To be honest, if it is a single Knight, Captain Smash should be able to do most of the heavy lifting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 What about Leviathans with 2x grav cannons? 2d3 shots, D5 to vehicles. It isn't the cheapest though. The 5 fixed damage is nice but it is only D3 shots. Average damage output will be 10 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds and only 3 wounds getting passed the saves. In practice this likely means 5 damage assuming your opponent fails his 5++ save but it is swingy and unreliable. Also the range is only 18" meaning that your slow Leviathan has to trudge close to the Knight and then hope it does not get blown away or charged. If you give both arms Grav flux then on a good day, he might cause 10 wounds to a Knight but that relies on the Knight letting you engage on your terms. A knight has a 12" move and so can reliably charge a Leviathan from outside the 18" range of Grav. If you want to go FW, the Sicaran Venator is a probably the more promising option. It is fast, fairly tough and mounts guns that are roughly equivalent to 5 lascannons. The big deal though is that any target wounded by the Neutron laser suffers a -1 to Hit penalty in its next shooting phase. If you are shooting at a Crusader or Castellan, that is a LOT of shooting you will be nerfing. To be honest, if it is a single Knight, Captain Smash should be able to do most of the heavy lifting. Aye. Agreed. Smash should get alot, and otherwise DC or SG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I have a feeling Captain smash will get nerfed in CA... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluejayJunior Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I actually think a nerf on him specifically is very unlikely, other than maybe a points increase. They would have to change every Space Marine Captain to effect him. And, other than a points increase, what can you really do to nerf him? I think it's more likely that we'll see a change to CP regeneration in some way. What makes him so good is dumping a ton of CP into him. If you can't spend as much CP, he isn't as scary. I have a feeling Captain smash will get nerfed in CA... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I'm kinda expecting to see CP getting changed to work like in AoS2 and Kill Team eventually. Instead of having a huge pool of CP from the beginning that you can burn through you'll be generating an amount of CP at the beginning of each turn depending on what's in your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349675-anti-armour-and-ba/page/2/#findComment-5162992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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