Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I've just never liked Garro. Both he and Loken were so cookie-cutter "generic hero" in personality, you'd be able to swap which Legions they'd been betrayed by without changing any elements of their personality whatsoever. This is why the whole "Death Guard got the Garro books to cover them" thing is so infuriating, because Garro didn't act like a Death Guard member in any way. He didn't act like a Dusk Raider either. He was just Standard  Space Marine Hero.

 

 

As for Lords of Silence, it was great at showing what Nurgle is like, but as a novel, it kinda fell flat. The characters were all so alike, and I had no idea who each character was, or what they looked like, other than Vorx. Everyone else kinda blurred together.

 

I think that's a greater sin for Garro than Loken, as Loken wasn't really guilty of that in his introductory book. Like the other members of the Mournival, his personality was simplified when Mcneill took over, and I'd argue that going off Horus Rising alone it's still uncertain which side of the war he's going to land on. 

 

Garro is just so archetypically heroic there's never a seed of doubt where he's going. It's bad enough Flight of the Eisenstein told us so little about the rest of the 14th (though it's somewhat forgivable for the time), but Garro himself isn't even unique amongst marine protagonists. Loken's questioning nature could have easily lead him into Chaos' clutches in a search for all the wrong answers, Garro's crisis of faith is only a matter of survival in Eisenstein, which I'd argue is much less interesting.

 

Back to Lords of Silence specifically, it did a lot I love in regards to the new edition as well like cementing the Abaddon vs Daemon Primarch dichotomy. To me it was all worth it for Typhus' exasperation about the Plague War and the primarch's return alone. 

 

 

Outside of being part of the Mournival, what exactly of Lokens personality makes him seem Cthonian? He doesn't have any of the barbarism, or any of the features that make the Sons of Horus distinct from other Legions. Sure, he wasn't a blank archetype of a character, but his identity as a Legion member never really had anything to it. It's the same with Garro. It's not that they're obviously goody-two-shoes, but that they're so generic. If you were shown Garros characteristics, mannerisms, and behaviour, you'd be unable to pick what Legion he's from, probably just defaulting to "Ultramarines, I guess?"

The only thing that shows you Garro is an ex-Death Guard is his hatred of Mortarion. You can change that to any other Primarch of your choosing, and Garro then becomes as much a member of the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, as he ever was characterized as a Death Guard.

 

Khârn is definitely a World Eater. Argal Tal is definitely a Word Bearer. Thiel is definitely an Ultramarine. Arvida is definitely a Thousand Son, Alexis Polux is definitely an Imperial Fist. Raldoron is definitely a Blood Angel. Garro/Loken are... marines. 

[Roomsky]

 

 

Outside of being part of the Mournival, what exactly of Lokens personality makes him seem Cthonian? He doesn't have any of the barbarism, or any of the features that make the Sons of Horus distinct from other Legions. Sure, he wasn't a blank archetype of a character, but his identity as a Legion member never really had anything to it. It's the same with Garro. It's not that they're obviously goody-two-shoes, but that they're so generic. If you were shown Garros characteristics, mannerisms, and behaviour, you'd be unable to pick what Legion he's from, probably just defaulting to "Ultramarines, I guess?"

The only thing that shows you Garro is an ex-Death Guard is his hatred of Mortarion. You can change that to any other Primarch of your choosing, and Garro then becomes as much a member of the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, as he ever was characterized as a Death Guard.

 

Khârn is definitely a World Eater. Argal Tal is definitely a Word Bearer. Thiel is definitely an Ultramarine. Arvida is definitely a Thousand Son, Alexis Polux is definitely an Imperial Fist. Raldoron is definitely a Blood Angel. Garro/Loken are... marines. 

 

 

I don't believe the barbarism existed at that time, nor most of those features. He's the legion's free spirit and informality which defined it when the series began, and in fairness to Garro he was a resilient guy, which is about as far as the Death Guard's lore would have carried him as well. Both I'd say are more distinct than Raldoron, who I can't agree is obviously anything. I agree the problem is for Garro to have been the POV into his legion, Morty and sons should have had their own books. 

 

I just can't agree Loken is a cookie-cutter generic hero, because in Horus Rising he has an ambiguity to him that Garro does not. Garro is a parody of Loken, all the conviction with none of the doubts or missteps.

[mc warhammer]

i always saw the luna wolves of HR as being "reformed" gangers through indoctrination to make them the PR presentable stars of the great crusade. it was only after the chaos stuff that they start to slide back into bad habits (that mostly only persisted in secret in the lodges).

 

i had no real grip on who the DG were in "eisenstein" beyond drinking poison like frat boys at a dorm party

 

there's room for variance of personality within a legion. each legion would have their lokens but it should be flavoured with their own cultural twists. sor talgron and argel tal are decent examples of a loken type gone wrong.

[Kelborn]

*jumps in again after quite a while*

 

Huzzah, you guys were busy, eh?

 

First of all:

 

I'm reviewing the board rules in terms of discussing the FW black books in here. I'll keep you posted on that (currently at work, so time's limited).

 

With that being said, I just wanted to drop some thoughts on the latest discussions:

 

Emperor's Spears

 

Interesting to see such reviews and thoughts on it after all the praising it received "back" then. I can see your points and as always: to each his/her/it own.

I, for one, love it not because of the characters. As you guys said, Amadeus was kind of a blank one, for example.

 

I love it for what it does to the setting and the new era:

 

- Rubicon; let's avoid GWs previous treatment about it. Missed opportunity, characters just survive it because they want to seel the new minis, etc. But here, it really felt like he's about to die and it's a desperate last straw. Way better representation!

- Imperium Nihilus; until then, we just had a glimpse of an idea about how the situation is over there. Here we got a really great depiction of it via the Elara's Veil. Desperation, running low on ressources, standing alone against the all surprassing madness and darkness without knowing if you're the last ones out there or not.

- Primaris; Again, I love how ADB dealt with them. The failed first generations, the deformed (and honored within the chapter) character. Every little bit added and atoned for the flawd and lacking introduction of the new generation of Astartes.

 

Furthermore, the Spears themselves don't feel overthemed (is that a thing? Overtheming something?). We got the Wolfy McWolfenson Space Wolves since 5th edition, the secretly traitor-non traitor Dark Angels, the "we're the best at everything" Postersmurfs. Though I love most of them (get away Vampires and Smurfs ), they've gone too far in certain tropes and themes. Most of the Space Marines chapters are build around a single focused theme. That's it. Minotaurs aka Spartans, Charcharodons aka Maori. I'm generalizing for sure but you get the point.

 

With the Spears, at least for me, it felt...smooth. Maybe it's because they're new and we don't have that much about them but the Spears themselves feel like a "natural" chapter without diving too much into certain stereotypes. Sure, they know better than Amadeus. It's their homeground after all. They've been through the mess of the opening rift and fighting against all odds for 100+ years. It would've surprised me if it wasn't that way at all.

Also the assassination felt weirdly "good" as it caught me offguard. Tbf, I haven't read Blood and Sands but I know what happens to the Lions. So there we have the new chapter master. We (the reader) maybe celebrate his return, thinking "heck yes, they are recovering!" and then that happens. It emphasizes our dislike against the Inquisition. Felt a bit like a WHAT THE HECK moment from Game of Thrones. Was good, I enjoyed it.

 

Another example of a "smooth" chapter/ Legion: White Scars only because of what Chris (and later Rob) made of them. Just because of their work did the Scars become my favorite Legion and kicked the Wolfensons from the throne.

 

That's why I love the Emperors Spears. I will forever highly recommend it as an absolute must-read for the new era and world building/ Astartes in general.

 

 

One more thing I'd like to add.

After reading your review, StrangerOrders, covering the Lords of Silence, I think I understand why I never finished that one. Started it three times and every single time I put it aside after a couple of pages. Maybe I wasn't into Chaos back then but meh, it just didn't hooked me unlike most of Wraights stuff. Glad to see that I'm not the only one. Maybe I'll read it one day, 'cause of being a Wraight fanboy, you know.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Kelborn

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 

 

Outside of being part of the Mournival, what exactly of Lokens personality makes him seem Cthonian? He doesn't have any of the barbarism, or any of the features that make the Sons of Horus distinct from other Legions. Sure, he wasn't a blank archetype of a character, but his identity as a Legion member never really had anything to it. It's the same with Garro. It's not that they're obviously goody-two-shoes, but that they're so generic. If you were shown Garros characteristics, mannerisms, and behaviour, you'd be unable to pick what Legion he's from, probably just defaulting to "Ultramarines, I guess?"

The only thing that shows you Garro is an ex-Death Guard is his hatred of Mortarion. You can change that to any other Primarch of your choosing, and Garro then becomes as much a member of the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, as he ever was characterized as a Death Guard.

 

Khârn is definitely a World Eater. Argal Tal is definitely a Word Bearer. Thiel is definitely an Ultramarine. Arvida is definitely a Thousand Son, Alexis Polux is definitely an Imperial Fist. Raldoron is definitely a Blood Angel. Garro/Loken are... marines.

 

I don't believe the barbarism existed at that time, nor most of those features. He's the legion's free spirit and informality which defined it when the series began, and in fairness to Garro he was a resilient guy, which is about as far as the Death Guard's lore would have carried him as well. Both I'd say are more distinct than Raldoron, who I can't agree is obviously anything. I agree the problem is for Garro to have been the POV into his legion, Morty and sons should have had their own books.

 

I just can't agree Loken is a cookie-cutter generic hero, because in Horus Rising he has an ambiguity to him that Garro does not. Garro is a parody of Loken, all the conviction with none of the doubts or missteps.

Yeah I think it's really important to remember what existed in 2005-6 when Horus Rising and its two sequels were written, versus what came later - the only real lore on the period was 2004's Visions of Heresy, the early 2000s Index Astartes articles (to which McNeil was a substantial contributor), old stories like the William King story of the Siege, the little snippets in source books like Codexes and rulebooks from 1st-4th edn, and unusual heresy-originating characters like Sahaal in Lord of Night (2005) and Astelan in Angels of Darkness (2003). This does mean that the *difference* we now know was less apparent - or rather hadn't been invented.

 

I mean check out the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion IA and the Death Guard one:

 

LW: http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_bl.html

DG: http://games-workshop.com/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_dg.html

 

Or even finding Visions of Heresy, the 2nd and 3rd edition Codexes and the rest of the Index and seeing what was the context of the heresy's production in the mid- to late-2000s.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Petitioner's City

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

After reviewing the board rules, hear my words:

 

It is not against the rules of the Black Library subforum to discuss all fluff released by Games Workshop (and it's related companies) in here.

Thus, it is in line if you want to talk about them.

 

Nonetheless, I personaly recommend to transfer it to the Age of Darkness subforum in order to share your thoughts with those Fraters, who don't frequently visit our enlighted halls.

Thus, you might receive more input to the topic and further, a more interesting discussion.

 

=][=

Edited July 22, 2020 by Kelborn

[Xisor]

 

 

 

Outside of being part of the Mournival, what exactly of Lokens personality makes him seem Cthonian? He doesn't have any of the barbarism, or any of the features that make the Sons of Horus distinct from other Legions. Sure, he wasn't a blank archetype of a character, but his identity as a Legion member never really had anything to it. It's the same with Garro. It's not that they're obviously goody-two-shoes, but that they're so generic. If you were shown Garros characteristics, mannerisms, and behaviour, you'd be unable to pick what Legion he's from, probably just defaulting to "Ultramarines, I guess?"

The only thing that shows you Garro is an ex-Death Guard is his hatred of Mortarion. You can change that to any other Primarch of your choosing, and Garro then becomes as much a member of the Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers, or Sons of Horus, as he ever was characterized as a Death Guard.

 

Khârn is definitely a World Eater. Argal Tal is definitely a Word Bearer. Thiel is definitely an Ultramarine. Arvida is definitely a Thousand Son, Alexis Polux is definitely an Imperial Fist. Raldoron is definitely a Blood Angel. Garro/Loken are... marines. 

 

 

I don't believe the barbarism existed at that time, nor most of those features. He's the legion's free spirit and informality which defined it when the series began, and in fairness to Garro he was a resilient guy, which is about as far as the Death Guard's lore would have carried him as well. Both I'd say are more distinct than Raldoron, who I can't agree is obviously anything. I agree the problem is for Garro to have been the POV into his legion, Morty and sons should have had their own books. 

 

I just can't agree Loken is a cookie-cutter generic hero, because in Horus Rising he has an ambiguity to him that Garro does not. Garro is a parody of Loken, all the conviction with none of the doubts or missteps.

 

As an aside on Raldoron - he could be so much, even just in the capacity of 'most boringly competent Marine in any Legion' - like he could be so archetypally un-Blood Angel-y that he loops right back round.

 

There's huge plays one can do with that, without making him anything too specific or edgy or extreme too. He doesn't need to exemplify the Legion, but for goodness sake at least let him be wonderfully boring. 

 

But he isn't. He's a tedious non-entity.

 

He's not like a nondescript sort of everyman a la Loken, Garro, and Tarvitz. He's not... not. A placeholder more than a character.

[DarkChaplain]

Agreed. I like Azkaellon, I forget that Raldoron even exists.

 

Heck, going by the amount of times I see his name misspelled online, I might not be the only one who forgets about the bloke.

Honestly, it's kind of like Raldoron's first notable act in the series was kicking Skraivok off a wall. And that scene, while playing a bit on his blandness, could've featured basically anybody competent on the loyalist higher echelons instead.

 

It's like Raldoron is a character nobody dared/desired to write throughout the series, but had to include because of old lore mentions / artwork from Collected Visions, naming him as a BA captain of renown, and because Swallow himself referenced him as some sort of badarse in his BA series.

Like he has to be mentioned, but nobody knows what to do with him because the more interesting aspects of the Chapter are already covered by the likes of Azkaellon and Amit. There doesn't appear to be any actual conflict for the character. Even what we heard from after the Heresy, he just goes along with Guilliman while Amit rages against the Codex and Azkaellon is basically a broken man. Did Raldoron do anything relevant / exciting during the entirety of Imperium Secundus? Seems like Azkaellon did all the tough stuff there, including meeting up with Curze.

 

Raldoron is just a non-entity, a blank space for when the other characters are otherwise occupied, in my eyes.

[bluntblade]

i always saw the luna wolves of HR as being "reformed" gangers through indoctrination to make them the PR presentable stars of the great crusade. it was only after the chaos stuff that they start to slide back into bad habits (that mostly only persisted in secret in the lodges).

 

i had no real grip on who the DG were in "eisenstein" beyond drinking poison like frat boys at a dorm party

 

there's room for variance of personality within a legion. each legion would have their lokens but it should be flavoured with their own cultural twists. sor talgron and argel tal are decent examples of a loken type gone wrong.

Loken also had rather more of a sense of humour than Garro, which goes a long way.

 

The barbarism was there, primarily in Sedirae and Ekaddon. Loken possibly represents an emergent, nobler aspect to the XVIth, which is already there in the Mournival.

 

Garro ought to have been more of a Dusk Raider, balancing fealty to and respect for his Primarch and subordinates with nostalgia for the old Legion.

Edited July 22, 2020 by bluntblade

[StrangerOrders]

 

=][=

 

After reviewing the board rules, hear my words:

 

It is not against the rules of the Black Library subforum to discuss all fluff released by Games Workshop (and it's related companies) in here.

Thus, it is in line if you want to talk about them.

 

Nonetheless, I personaly recommend to transfer it to the Age of Darkness subforum in order to share your thoughts with those Fraters, who don't frequently visit our enlighted halls.

Thus, you might receive more input to the topic and further, a more interesting discussion.

 

=][=

 

Great!

 

I might crosspost later but the reason I want to do it here is to expand on their value to pure-lore fans (as in those that arent into the game), because I feel like the attitude of closing them off has left alot of good lore neglected and I feel like the point of this thread is in part to review old and somewhat neglected works in the setting.

 

There is alot of good stuff there and I think it is worth reviewing because a review is in part a way to recommend at length. Heck, you technically don't need to own more than your Legion's book and that is optional, the bulk of their worth is lore.

 

And also that section of B&C doesnt seem to be very lore-driven so it feels like the wrong place to discuss them (especially since my point in reviewing them is that you dont need to play the game to have value from them as setting materials).

[Kelborn]

Then maybe start a new related thread and keep this one for "regular" reviews? :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sorry guys, I'd typed the whole "Raldoron" thing while at work, he was just the first 30k Blood Angel name that came to mind.

[Noserenda]

Back on Topic! Just finished Sons of the Hydra by Rob Sanders. Sanders is very much in my "readable but not great" list and this bears that out some more :D It follows a warband of Alpha Legion who are vaguely interesting stereotypes if a bit OP and there is a bunch of traditional Alpha chicanery alongside other madness. Its a bit uneven, some parts had me hooked, whilst others draaagged. The depiction of a greater daemon is truly apocalyptic and a real highlight.

Its not actively bad and i liked it overall i think, but im a XX fanboy and my headspace is all Fabius baby (My current audio book :D )

It did have a sample for Shroud of night though, which just from the sample feels like a better execution of a similar idea.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I've just finished reading Dead Men Walking, and while it was a good showing of how the Death Korp operate, goddamn did it suffer a bad case of "telling, not showing". There's literally a section where the Commissar gives a big, inspirational speech before an assault, and, well, it's better to see it yourself. Here's the passage in its entirety:

 

 

Costellin cleared his throat, recalled his training of a lifetime ago and launched into a speech that, while halting at first, soon became more confident in tone, more passionate, and ultimately proved, in the commissar's own opinion, to be the finest, the most inspiring speech he had made in the whole of his decades-long career.

 

That's it. That's the speech shown in the book. The author does this a lot throughout the book, although this is the worst case. It's filled with "he asked him about X, and they told him" type writing, instead of having actual dialogue.

 

The rest of the story was ok, and it was certainly one of the most grim-dark books I've read in a while. It was just so aggravating to just be told "oh yeah, and the guy made an awesome speech. You'd have loved to have heard it, it was super inspirational".

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[bluntblade]

My favourite commissar speech will always be the Wrath of Iron one.

[Noserenda]

Have restarted Honourbound in print after bouncing off the awful audiobook, can confirm it is actually an excellent book so far.

[Kelborn]

Recently finished Lukas the Trickster.

 

I'll keep it short: There's nothing bad to say about it.

 

A must-read for every Space Wolves & Drukhari fan. Really enjoyed the latter but the chapters including Lukas is where this story shines the brightest. Not only is he hilarious and enjoyable (and lovely) as some AoS characters like Gotrek or Hamilcar but also is his view on the chapter, life as a Son of Russ and fate really well done. Some real deep philosophical themes here. It's a really fresh and great take on one of my all-time favorite Astartes, their role in the universe and how they see themselves (with wyrds being decided, traditions and such).

 

That epilogue was the funniest thing ever released by BL for sure! :D

 

I said it before and I say it again: It's a true shame that Josh left BL. Within this and last year, I really became a fan of his work. Consistent, established stuff viewed from a new angle, characters I'm liking and somewhat care for.

 

Listened to the audio, so one more note: John Banks nailed it - again.

 

Usually cautious to give a ten out of ten but it was such a ride: 9.5/10 ;)

Edited July 31, 2020 by Kelborn

[StrangerOrders]

Recently finished Lukas the Trickster.

 

I'll keep it short: There's nothing bad to say about it.

 

A must-read for every Space Wolves & Drukhari fan. Really enjoyed the latter but the chapters including Lukas is where this story shines the brightest. Not only is he hilarious and enjoyable (and lovely) as some AoS characters like Gotrek or Hamilcar but also is his view on the chapter, life as a Son of Russ and fate really well done. Some real deep philosophical themes here. It's a really fresh and great take on one of my all-time favorite Astartes, their role in the universe and how they see themselves (with wyrds being decided, traditions and such).

 

That epilogue was the funniest thing ever released by BL for sure!

 

I said it before and I say it again: It's a true shame that Josh left BL. Within this and last year, I really became a fan of his work. Consistent, established stuff viewed from a new angle, characters I'm liking and somewhat care for.

 

Listened to the audio, so one more note: John Banks nailed it - again.

 

Usually cautious to give a ten out of ten but it was such a ride: 9.5/10

Very much agreed (but I have been accused of being a Reynolds fanboy, so take with salt).

 

The thing I loved about him though is what you said about the 'new angle'. 

 

More than an angle, Reynolds was quite possibly the most detail-orientated BL writer. 

 

Josh's writing is very... idk, emergent? He rarely actually adds something to the setting so much as scrounges up and meticulously compiles what has been said before and uses that to create this entirely novel perspective. Which I especially enjoy since he is one of the few writers to acknowledge FW stuff.

 

His EC work? Heavily references both Fulgrim, Chirurgeon and every scrap of EC lore to date and draws heavily from the Black Books. His EC major characters? Most of them are the sample art from Betrayal and he actually bothers to put on the Legion culture.

 

A good example of this is in Lukas, he incorporates the darkness and light of the Wolf body of work across the book thoroughly but also manages to reconcile it.

 

He has the Wolves remember who they were, and places their present context as being a very direct and paradoxical refutation of and embrace of their 30k selves. From the fact that they remember their earliest days and still remember the exact meaning of 'Rout' and use it as a challenge to themselves to the fact that Reynolds actually dug up the lore for the Pre-Russ Wolf-Comissars and has the VIth keep the old armor to remind themselves of their origins and the consequences of their feral nature. Or heck, the fact that most older wolves are noted to deliberately almost 'play act' through their rituals in a manner more akin to accomplished actors than actual barbarians (while 100% still being barbarians).

 

Its a delightful work, and I'm almost sad to be reminded of it after finishing Indomitus (which I've already spoken of on that thread) and Thorpe's utter dislike for following established details. 

[DarkChaplain]

Just sayin', there's worse things than being accused of being a fanboy of one of BL's best, if underhyped, authors. Could've called you a Phil Kelly fanboy, for starters.

 

I never finished Lukas the Trickster, though not due to the book, but because of things happening around that time and just getting thrown off, along with other books and even games. I want to go back and finish/start over pretty badly, though, probably after the Fabius re-read/Manflayer. Even being somewhat lukewarm on the Wolves, I loved what I'd read - both in terms of short stories/audio drama as well as the third I got into the novel. It's hilarious in many ways, but so on point for 40k and the involved factions to not be a parody. Lukas, as a character, makes sense.

[Roomsky]

Ahh, Lukas. I love Reynolds and the life he injects into any faction he touches, but it's not quite enough life to save the wolves for me. There's a point where no amount of depth added to viking tropes and wolf tropes and harsh, snowy environment tropes can save you if you dislike them all. I'd imagine the book is near perfect for anyone who holds the wolves in any greater esteem than ehm, contempt.

 

I love the Bile books especially but generally, Reynolds for me is what I wish the BL baseline was. He rarely blows my socks off, but he never does anything but justice to the factions he writes. He just gets what he needs to bring to the page and delivers that every time. Even the Wolves he made far more tolerable than usual. His understanding of the setting's comedic value is only icing on the cake.

[Roomsky]

War of Secrets – Phil Kelly

 

Ugh, did not finish. Even John Banks’ narration couldn’t save this one, enjoyable as he is. Flat characters, uninteresting, tired plot, and questionable prose I could notice even through narration. The Primaris are saccharine to the point of being unbelievable, and Kelly has yet to write the Tau in anything but the least inspired fashion.

 

60% through before dropping and I still wasn’t sure why I should care.

 

Unreadable

[Roomsky]

The Solar War – John French

 

Ah, what clarity a re-read can give. Having already enjoyed it the first time, I liked it quite a bit more the second. The minor issues I had based on expectation have been shed, though they’ve been replaced by a bigger one.

 

It really helps going into this knowing the balance of scenes. I feel this book has something for everyone, but on a first read, is not going to deliver on every expectation for most. Knowing roughly how much screen time Abaddon, Mersadie, Dorn, etc will get going in makes it much easier to appreciate the virtues of their scenes. My peeve the first time through was the more broad-strokes account of the ongoing battle interrupting what I thought was compelling character work, but this time I appreciated the contextualizing of what the actors were trying to navigate through. The balance of scenes is actually quite good, I think.

 

As before, I really like Mersadie’s plot, it’s an effective illustration of why Malcador can be so apparently cold in his actions, and of course it’s a nice callback to the series’ origins. Abaddon remains a standout here, French’s portrayal mixing the nobility of Abnett’s, the erratic behaviour of Mcneill’s and the potential to become ADB’s. What I didn’t notice before is the parallel between him and Sigismund; they’re surprisingly effective foils here. Both begin somewhat estranged from their gene-fathers, both ruminate on the roles assigned them and both face a champion of the enemy in a boarding action. But while Sigismund returns to his fathers’ side after a defeat, Abaddon remains distant after his overwhelming success. As always with French, I love how he does character cameos, even minor appearances like Perturabo are given sufficient gravity and dignity.

 

I know it’s received some criticism for the ease of the Chaos victory here, but I didn’t find it especially bothersome. The comet plot point was established earlier in the series, and it never seemed a small effort on the traitor side to get things to line up properly. I’m also perfectly satisfied with keeping Dorn and Pert’s war coordination vague, the scale is frankly too vast to summarize in even mild detail.

 

So, I’m thankful French got to tackle this opening chapter of the Siege but, honestly, I don’t think he was the best choice for it, and not just because I think there are some Siege writers who are better than him. French’s best work in the Heresy, in my opinion, is Praetorian of Dorn. It’s a great and fair look at two legions, it’s a plot that moves at a great pace and ratchets tension like no tomorrow, and it’s even also a war for the space around Terra. The difference is, I think, is that PoD remains focussed to a central theme, despite its scope and cast size. It’s about two legions going head to head, the conflict of their ideals and methods. Such themes are not absent from Solar War, rather, the book is absolutely stuffed with them.

 

So while I think The Solar War does work, I don’t think it excels. French’s best is devoting a work to A: a plot with a big twist (check), and B: a central theme that drives every scene (nope.) Is the book about Abaddon and Sigismund’s evolving relationship with their fathers? Sometimes. Is it about Dorn and the Emperor’s methods and ideals against Horus and Perturabo’s? As a plot, sort of, but not thematically. Is it about Mersadie Oliton and the final death of innocence in Imperial values? Again, sometimes, but the other plots don’t tie into that at all. I think each of these points and more work in their roles, but nothing ever really ties them together. It’s not an account of the Solar War AND the story of the Solar War. It’s an account of the Solar War with a few small stories seeded throughout. And while I like French’s writing, presentation, and the execution of ideas given the space, I don’t think he’s really able to pull it all together, and for that it feels a little flaccid.

 

So I keep this one an 8/10 and a Must Read. In many ways it’s French’s greatest accomplishment, he handles the allotted plot deftly, but it’s not his greatest work.

[Kelborn]

Guy Hayley...praised by many. To be honest, I've struggled with him from time to time. Pharos was great and a pageturner. His Primarch contributions were ace. But then again, other novels like Wolfsbane or Dark Imperium never really caught me. I've started reading them for like three times, always putting them aside after around 100 pages.

 

Can't even name it.

 

Then, I was happy to get my hands on some humble bumble deals, etc. which enabled me to experience Dark Imperium as an audibook. I loved it. Not tipity top one but I really enjoyed it.

Now, after listening to both, Plague Wars and Belisarius Cawl, I can say that his style grew on me. Avenging Son is amazing, as well, from the few pages I was able to read until now (screw you reallife! *waves fist*).

 

So, like I did before, I'm gonna share my two cents. Don't expect any in-dive review or such. I'm a simple guy after all.

 

Plague War

 

A very good sequel to the great Dark Imperium set-up. I'm focusing on just a handful of topics here:

 

- good but classy sequel; nothing breathtaking (except the next point) but a solid story

- Reason vs. religion; I myself despise the church for many reasons. Religion is something I can't get behind with. It's superstitious, unreasonable and it often times the reason for tragedies. Not talking about reallife, though. I'm focusing on the "Imperial cult" here. Guiliman and many Astartes despises it, as well. I simply loved every single line when someone put Matthew in his place. Sicarius, Guiliman, just yes please! Guilimans outburst with Matthew got me more excited than Dark Imperium and Plague War together. I wanted him to punish that ........ so hard, I even continued listening although I came back home and my wife was talking to me.

- Matthew; for the mentioned reasons, I H A T E him; he's well written yes, but he's so blinded by his belief that it's already hurting me to listen to his weird view on life; seriously THE Primarch threatened him with death and worse and he's like "Holy Emperor, he begins to see!" - Dude, what?! oO

- Death Guard; It was good to see the relations between Mortarion, the Great Unclean One (whos name I forgot) and Typhus, more please

- Justinian; well, most boring part for me, imho, besides his struggle with joining the Novamarines, nothing interesting happened here; even the interesting part about Typhus fighting against a Grey Knight Librarian was simply cut

- Kind sad that the imperial officer died, cursed zealous Sisters

 

Overall, I'd give it a 7.5/10. The interesting thing is that I've started to read about the Sisters and the Ecclisiarchy, even considering to pull up an old zealos Knight Household idea and dedicate it to the Imperial Cult as a Liber project. That's something I have not anticipated at all.

 

Belisarius Cawl - The Great Work

 

One word: WOW!

Now seriously, this one beats the DI arc by miles.

- Cawl is an interesting and endearing character! I really felt with him and his backstory was the most fascinating thing. At first, all these flashbacks are loosely tied together but we don't know which are meaningfull and which aren't. Especially the question about is he Cawl or is he not was really enjoyable (and I had a huuuuuge grin on my face when I've reached the eand of the audio because of the questions anwer)

- Fredish (don't know if his name is correctly spelled); the perfect (yet a bit stereotypicall) counterpart to Cawl. Both of them reminded my of C-3PO and R2 D2 or Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon. I'm diggint that kind of duos.

- The backstory of the Pharus was a nice continuation of Hayleys previous work on it. It has a lot of potential for the future and I really hope that we will have a sequel one day!

- The Scythes of the Emperor; really interesting concept, doesn't work with most of the chapters but here it did due to the novel Pharus and its outcome; Tracchian (not sure, as well) and his chapters secret was the second most interesting thing in the novel, especially as it was unclear until the very end, how it all had happened, etc.

- Necrons were a nice bonus due to the Pharos engine.

- Felix grew on me as a character. Think we should have more of him as a mean for us to dive into the new Dark Imperium era. He's way more interesting than Justinian, for example.

- Primus - I want to know more of him. Is he "just" an amalgation or rather a prototype for Cawl? Why is he so strong? Is he a semi-Primarch Astartes thing? Is he made of all eighteen Legions? In the mirror scene within the Pharos, we had a group of grey Astartes instead of Primus. Possible that he's truly a chimeara like Felix suggested: made from different strings of geneseed. Nonetheless, another interesting factor of Cawl. (And I'll take it as a de-facto confirmation that he used traitor geneseed to create at least some Primaris Marines *cough* Sons of the Phoenix *cough*. Definitely gonna use that for the future).

 

Well yeah, not that much I would've wanted in addition. A great story and it would've been a enriching supplement to the release of the 8th edition. But well, better late than never, eh?

 

9/10 (only because Lukas was funnier and even more likeable than Cawl)

Edited August 16, 2020 by Kelborn

[Scribe]

Considering the other thread remains locked I'm just going to start a note on it here.

 

Saturnine - Dan Abnett

 

Unless the next 200 pages save this book, Saturnine is not remotely as good as any number of BL books, I wouldnt say its even above average, and certainly is outclassed by the usual suspects.

 

There are about 2 meaningful scenes in the first 330 pages, and his Perpetual arc is ramrodded into a setting that neither needs it, nor benefits from it.

 

His insistence on forcing real world religions into a universe 28+ THOUSAND years into the future borders on farcical.

 

Anyone looked up their local chapter of Mithras worship lately?

 

No?

 

Me neither.

 

His loyalist Primarchs are indistinguishable via dialogue. He throws away characters for nothing, and the sheer number of words that are saying nothing is staggering. 330 pages in, and I'm simply force feeding myself to find something worth the $35.

 

At this point I absolutely DREAD him getting the last book of the series.

 

As per usual, his world building is fine, his high level or scene building is fine, but even his description of World Eaters, they run on all 4's now? Come on.

 

Final Score Pending: 6/10

 

EDIT:

 

Finished, and not fussed with it at all. There is 1 main arc running through the book, and anyone experienced with his work so far in the series will have identified it, before the afterword is read.

 

If you are into a book that flexes the technical literary crafting muscle of the author? This is a book for you.

If you are into a book that is comfortable reaching beyond the established character and imagery of the setting in some places? This is the book for you.

 

Technically competent.

Well written.

Not moving.

 

I thought of this quote as I marched through it.

 

"In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness."

 

In that light, this book is far far far from perfect.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Scribe

[DukeLeto69]

@scribe mate your hatred and attacks on Abnett are getting a bit OTT and seem to crop up in multiple threads. A lot of people do not agree and the general consensus is that Saturnine is an excellent and very strong book.