Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[DukeLeto69]

I gave Justin D Hill a bit of a hard time over Cadia Stands. I liked the Dunkirk vibe but the switch of main POV character and “disaster movie” style vignettes with characters you didn’t care about vanishing too soon to start caring was my issue. Well written but didn’t click for me.

 

However, Cadian Honour is a great book, really good. Similarly Terminal Overkill. Very much enjoyed both and want more.

 

Makes me wonder if the “studio brief/shackles” steered Cadia Stands (a novel debut for BL I think) whereas given free(er) reign JDH other books are far stronger (to me).

 

He’s a great guy too so feel like a heel criticising.

[Petitioner's City]

@StrangerOrders, were you planning to do reviews of the Black Books in a separate thread - would love to see these, esp. with Betrayal and Tempest* back in print.

* In retrospect, I wish Tempest had been named "Inferno" (due to the Calth star) and Inferno "Tempest". Yes it would have been on the nose, but Prospero Burns is so very subtly on the nose in its adaptation of The Tempest's themes (magic, monstrosity, the loss of knowledge, the regal magician cast aside, the duplicitous usurper, freedom, forgiveness, and even the consequences of colonisation) that I do wish Bligh had given Dante to Ultramar, and Shakespeare to Prospero or maybe the names don't really matter

Edited August 21, 2020 by Petitioner's City

[Scribe]

Would love to read some reviews of those books, actually would be great to get the fluff isolated in its own release.

 

I'm still crushed by what they did with Night Lords. :(

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would love a thread on that. Now with book 5 rereleased, I will have all of the black books and could also contribute to that. It would be good for there to be some rules or structure on any reviews for them. Since they are campaign books, I don't think it's quite fair to just ignore the gaming aspect of them entirely, so maybe allow some contained commentary/part of any review on that. An example, perhaps reasonable to warrant noting that Malevolence had to reprint Talons of the Emperor as a negative in any discussion of them, although I think too much more in depth is not really necessary.

 

I would still be fine if it was just a lore review, but if I spend the time going through and rating them I would like to say what I see.

Edited August 21, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[StrangerOrders]

@StrangerOrders, were you planning to do reviews of the Black Books in a separate thread - would love to see these, esp. with Betrayal and Tempest* back in print.

 

* In retrospect, I wish Tempest had been named "Inferno" (due to the Calth star) and Inferno "Tempest". Yes it would have been on the nose, but Prospero Burns is so very subtly on the nose in its adaptation of The Tempest's themes (magic, monstrosity, the loss of knowledge, the regal magician cast aside, the duplicitous usurper, freedom, forgiveness, and even the consequences of colonisation) that I do wish Bligh had given Dante to Ultramar, and Shakespeare to Prospero or maybe the names don't really matter

Just finished ironically.

 

Per Kelborn's suggestion I started a new thread for them and have my own review of Betrayal on to start the ball rolling.

[Scribe]

Angron, Slave of Nuceria

 

Disclaimer: I'm a dyed in the blood World Eater fan. First army I had over 20 years ago. Multiple versions sold and rebuilt, and I've thought deeply on them for just as long.

Disclaimer the second: Content Warning

Suicide

 

Overview:

 

A quick story that breaks down the period between Angron joining the Legion, and the process of invention and installation of the Nails. Nothing is earth shattering, no (major) canon flaws and there are obvious nods to Betrayer, which remains the best WE book in my mind by far.

 

Characters are OK. Angron is OK, and improves towards the last few chapters.

 

Memory scenes are good, in that they at least show what he could have been, and where it all falls apart.

 

A pretty simple book.

 

Speculation (Arm Chair Psychology):

 

This book reinforces for me, the reality of Angon, and the resulting World Eaters post-Nails, that I have argued previously. He especially, was playing by a completely different set of 'rules' than the rest of the Primarchs, and the Imperium, because outside of MAYBE Curze, no other Primarch (and eventual Legion) has a surety in the view that they exist to die, and until that happens, they will make others die.

 

The book outright states, that he is looking for something to kill him. That he does not wish to exist, and that as he has stated before, he died at Nuceria when the Emperor failed him, and took him from his 'family'.

 

Angron wished to be dead, but was not willing to just throw himself into a star, he wanted to go out as he had been forced to live.

 

Now. If you look at the Chaos Gods, there is some pretty old, but fairly clear, break down.

 

Khorne vs Slaanesh

Tzeentch vs Nurgle

 

Arguments have been made, that as the Warp is out psyche, the gods can be represented by psychoanalytical theory or philosphical positions.

 

Khorne (Thanatos) vs Slaanesh (Eros)

Nurgle (Collectivism) vs Tzeentch (Individualism) - There is also something I had found once where Jungian concepts are referenced, but I cannot find it...

 

Focusing on Khorne, because duh, there is this snippet.

 

"While Eros is used for basic survival, the living instinct alone cannot explain all behavior according to Freud.[8] In contrast, Thanatos is the death instinct. It is full of self-destruction of sexual energy and our unconscious desire to die."

 

That is the World Eaters, post-Nails, but it is absolutely Angron.

 

There are other concepts at play obviously, as Betrayer tried to illustrate the various ways Khorne can be found. (Martial Excellence, Duelists, Pit Fighters, Brotherhood, Slaughter, Rage) but a central (or the central to me) point is that the ultimate expression of Khorne, and the one Angron imprints onto his Legion through the nails is the immediate removal of a desire to live, supplanted by an eventual desire to die.

 

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows. We have been told this for decades, and we have been told that 'lone champions will eventually offer up their own neck' how can Khorne, in its finality, and the Legion which becomes 'nails lost' or finds 'serenity' (see: Oblivion, in Eastern Religions twisted a bit cuz its 40K) in rage, be anything but Suicidal Ideation in the end? A desire to die.

 

Conclusion:

 

As such, you then look at what we have. A Demigod who resents the fact they continue to exist. A Legion mutilated into his image. A task of bringing 'compliance' to the worlds in their way as they rampage across the stars with the implied consent of the Emperor in his methods...well he is what he is, and his Legion is by the end of the book reforged.

 

Not an amazing book, and I found the very end did not match with a timeline that was logical (to me) but by the end I wasn't expecting much more. It does however add another example that aligns with my view of Angron, and my favorite Legion, and the psychological concepts in play.

 

6.5 or 7/10 - Read it if you are interested in the subject matter, but dont expect any revelations.

[Kelborn]

I'd give it at least one bonus point for just a single thing this book does:

 

War Hounds

 

I said it before and I'll never get tired to do so again:

If someone's interested in the pre Angron War Hounds Legion, this is your book!

It gives us a really good view on the Legion, it's doctrines, organization and culture.

Because of this single novel, I got enough notes and thoughts for an entire new chapter based upon them.

 

And it also made me truly feel for Angron. His backstory is heart breaking imho, especially the scene when he takes away his familys pain. Imagine if the Nails didn't happen to him, what a humble and noble soul he could've been.

 

That's why Slave of Nuceria is among my top tier of Primarch novels along with Curze and some others which share the same rank.

[Scribe]

Yes, that is true. In combination with the Black Book lore, and Betrayer you can easily build out what the Legion looked like pre-Nails with this book.

 

I didnt like at all how the those who tried to stop Angron were given a pass. Seemed...really poorly thought out, but as I mentioned, its not a perfect book.

[mc warhammer]

that "pass" only lasted till istvaan 3 tho

 

and i can see why even angron thought that killing off a third of his legion in one hit would look bad publicly

[Scribe]

that "pass" only lasted till istvaan 3 tho

 

and i can see why even angron thought that killing off a third of his legion in one hit would look bad publicly

Was it that many? I'll look it up again, I was under the impression that we were looking at a very small group.

 

And the dread lives until Betrayer.

[mc warhammer]

 

that "pass" only lasted till istvaan 3 tho

 

and i can see why even angron thought that killing off a third of his legion in one hit would look bad publicly

Was it that many? I'll look it up again, I was under the impression that we were looking at a very small group.

 

And the dread lives until Betrayer.

 

that's a good point; i'm conflating the number involved in the ghenna schism with the number purged at istvaan III. they may not be pound for pound, but i think it's fair to say anyone who sympathised with mago was on the list of eaters awarded the honour of assaulting the planet.

[Kelborn]

Recently listened to Daedalus by Golding.

A fine audio drama with a lot of nice background sounds to flesh out the scenes.

A small cameo of the traitorous fleet admiral of the Scythes mentioned in Cawls novel or rather the other way around.

 

Overall a 8/10

 

Started listening to Reynolds take on Fulgrim. Enjoying it for, though Fulgrim didn't grew on me as of now. Let's see what if that changes.

[Jareddm]

Recently listened to Daedalus by Golding.

A fine audio drama with a lot of nice background sounds to flesh out the scenes.

A small cameo of the traitorous fleet admiral of the Scythes mentioned in Cawls novel or rather the other way around.

 

Overall a 8/10

 

Started listening to Reynolds take on Fulgrim. Enjoying it for, though Fulgrim didn't grew on me as of now. Let's see what if that changes.

Could you tell me how they pronounce Byzas? I started reading Reynolds Fulgrim to my fiance and no way I said it sounded quite right.

[Rob P]

Was Byzas in Magnus too?

 

Edit: Nope, it was Bezant - ignore me!

Edited August 29, 2020 by Rob P

[byrd9999]

Pharos, Guy Haley. (HH Book 34).

 

So, in the interests of chronology (and a more entertaining narrative) in my quest to read the HH in order, I made sure to read Laurel of Defiance, A Safe and Shadowed Place and Heart of the Pharos before starting this.

 

Thanks to: http://www.kylebb.com/HH/HHSeriesOrder.html for massive help in plotting the narrative strands.

 

Although these stories were nice background filler, they would have fared worse if I'd read them in anthologies months afterwards.

 

Scattered thoughts:

Pharos is Guy Haley's first HH book, and he has a very readable style so the story (nearly 500 pages) moves along at a quick pace.

 

Pharos set up narrative events in 40k (Nova Marines, Scythes of the Emperor, Tyranids at Sotha), which was nice, and also hopefully bringing the Imperium Secundus arc to a conclusion.

 

I am enjoying the Imperium Secundus arc (years removed from any disappointment of it not moving the main HH plot forwards quick enough), but now I am hoping it wraps up quickly. There isn't much more to say, and even Pharos was fairly inessential.

 

Has Guy Haley ever written anything more gruesome than this? I know the Night Lords have skinning pits and they are the bad guys, but I'd never really FELT it before reading this. Maybe my imagination was overactive because I read it at night, but I really dislike the Night Lords. They are psychotic in ways I find hard to stand. I was actively rooting for them to lose by the end.

 

Most Night Lords were of the moustache-twirling variety, but there was genuine sympathy towards the end with Kellendvar/Kellenkir's recollections of their childhood on Nostramo.

 

If Josh Reynolds thinks writing about Space Marines is difficult because they are all identikit personality-free zones, he should check out the Ultramarines in Pharos. Haley shows plenty of ways to distinguish between several main characters of one of the most rigidly-structured fun-free legions. The Oberdeii/Tebecai relationship was a bit Top Gun at times, but it was all fun.

 

 

Overall, inessential but fast-moving and well crafted 7/10.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pharos is an awful book without its companion pieces, most importantly Curze.

 

My famous point of complaint is the ambush on the space station where there's like 3 times more night lords with complete suprise and they suffer more casualties; they operate more like skaven than marines.

 

But curze addresses this by having skraivok basically actively look for the dregs and kind of rush training to make a gang for himself. His dudes really aren't soldiers as a result, but without Curze you're left extremely confused why a legion who was able to effectively stall the 1st for years are now completely inept.

Edited September 3, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[DarkChaplain]

Meanwhile, Pharos is one of the books I enjoyed the most, with plenty of memorable moments and characters.

 

It also highlights the degeneration of the Night Lords' command structure - which was crumbling by the time of Thramas already, especially after Curze was struck into a coma. Remember the Kyroptera vying for power? Had it not been for a certain Prince of Crows putting his foot down, you'd have seen them break during Thramas, too.

And lest we forget, Thramas also included many hit and run assaults, or plain running away to lead the Lion on a merry chase....

The Night Lords were broken all along. There's a reason why even Curze hated his sons, guys.

 

They're not master tacticians, and never really were. Their area of expertise is instilling fear in their enemies, which is famously ineffective against Astartes. They're in for terror tactics, not necessarily mainline assaults. They did exceptionally well against the mortal defenders of Sotha - softer targets that they gleefully went for, mind you. In the Pharos mountain, they also weren't just up against "some Ultramarines" but defensive tactics of both a veteran Imperial Fist and an Iron Warrior - commanders both. A large fleet of Ultramarines arrived from elsewhere to support the defence, too.

 

 

Meanwhile, people ascribe the failures of the Legion-remnants at Pharos to Skraivok, when he wasn't even in command. Skraivok skewed recruitment practices, but he was still second fiddle to Krukesh the Pale, one of the Kyroptera survivors. And do you also remember that Skraivok executed Krukesh after the battle for his failings and weakness as a commander, while assuming command himself?

Did Skraivok recruit the dregs of Nostraman society? Yes. But did he do so at Curze's behest? Heeeeelll nooooo. He tried to make a bid for power for himself, while also keeping the degrading quality of Nostramo's recruits and the world's resistance to the Legion and Imperium from Curze until it was too late to fix. He's a jackarse through and through, always has been, but it's only one of many symptoms in the fall of the Night Lords - most of which were well on their way by the time of Thramas.

 

I realize the Night Lords are still a darling Legion to some, and seeing them fail is painful, but come on. We've seen their decline all around, including in the much-worshipped Prince of Crows, or Massacre (the short story), or A Safe and Shadowed Place, the Pharos prequel short. We've seen Curze and Legion in some of the earliest works as on-the-edge characters. The Dark King was a super early short story / audio drama in the series, which had Curze blowing his homeworld up because he hated it and its population - and recruits. Did nobody pick up on the fact that this Legion was inches away from going to hell?

 

There've been plenty of stories about the Night Lords going out of control and needing to be put back in order. Jaghathai, Vulkan, Horus, they all tried in their own ways. It's a Legion that would've nearly been terminated had Horus not seen fit to ally with Curze leading up to Isstvan after all. Everybody knew they couldn't go on like this, including Curze.

 

And then we have the Night Lords trilogy itself, which repeatedly tells us that the Legion was broken, that leadership schisms were rampant, and the epilogue was not simply as impactful as it seemed because ohmygod decimus, but because he managed to get the entire Legion back together for some actual discussions. Or how about Lord of the Night? How Zso Sahaal was basically bullflipping about the state of the Night Lords all the time to position himself as Curze's true heir? Rivalries for command have been rampant in the Legion from the very beginning, and it has hampered them through the millennia - including on Pharos.

Edited September 3, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[Scribe]

When you put it like that DarkChaplain you have me convinced that I need to pick up Night Lords again. :D

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya you're not really getting it.

 

No one cares about just the infighting. As you've mentioned, every other story for night lords has infighting and backstabbing. People cared that they were comically inept at waging war in this book; in an advantageous position like the initial ambush, they had never dropped the ball like that.

 

Trying to posit their tactics during thramas is proof of your assertions is well...baffling. They stalled the Lion, an acclaimed military genius. You think they would have enjoyed the same level of success if they were all skraivok-ambush tier?

 

The night lords were very effective when the command structure was enforced by sevatar and/or curze.

[Scribe]

Effective at what though? I've been a fan of Night Lords a long time, right up until FW decided that the original recruits were also terror specialized, were also recruited from territory that was perpetually dark, and...were also criminals or the children of criminals.

 

So really, the Legion fell from nothing. It was always what it was, at least as far as we ever got shown.

 

Edit: posted too fast.

 

In the end though they were well on the decline as an effective military force before the heresy kicked off. Any attempt to hold it together was going to be a limited time affair, and I don't think it's unrealistic to see that based on the totality of the NL lore.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Scribe

[SkimaskMohawk]

Effective at what though? I've been a fan of Night Lords a long time, right up until FW decided that the original recruits were also terror specialized, were also recruited from territory that was perpetually dark, and...were also criminals or the children of criminals.

 

So really, the Legion fell from nothing. It was always what it was, at least as far as we ever got shown.

Well effective at war and fighting their peers; the equal to their peers.

 

I agree that there was a decline and they would eventually be the raiding parties they became, but the argument that pharos was an accurate portrayal of the legion's martial skills at the time (immediately after thramas) isn't an accurate one.

Edited September 3, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Roomsky]

I think both sides are correct here, the issue being more that Haley UNDERSTANDS that the Night Lords lack cohesion and discipline, and chose to portray it with the subtlety of a Graham Mcneill sledgehammer to the face. The Night Lords in Pharos are the most obvious showing of a concept that could do with more subtlety. It’s like Ventanus’ squad killing all those Word Bearers without taking a single casualty.

 

The Night Lords can be a gang of backstabbing thugs AND be soldiers. We see this in Sevatar, First Claw, and Sahaal. However high-minded or deluded these characters may be, they are effective warriors and are all more than capable of coordinating with their peers and fighting effectively. Sevatar has the Kyroptera killed because they want to use the legion as a blunt instrument, which they’re bad at. First Claw backstab each other as well as their peers, but remain an enormous threat to the loyalists they come across despite comparable coordination. Sahaal, while an exception in terms of personality, demonstrated with his terror tactics alone that he could nearly take over a hive spire. You can be poor soldiers while still being soldiers.

 

Like, Night Lords still have to go through training. They’ve still been fighting wars for anywhere from decades to hundreds of years. The Night Lords in Pharos are gangsters with nice armour instead of people, criminal or no, recruited as adolescents/children and spend the rest of their “youth” being moulded into Space Marines.

[Scribe]

 

Effective at what though? I've been a fan of Night Lords a long time, right up until FW decided that the original recruits were also terror specialized, were also recruited from territory that was perpetually dark, and...were also criminals or the children of criminals.

 

So really, the Legion fell from nothing. It was always what it was, at least as far as we ever got shown.

Well effective at war and fighting their peers; the equal to their peers.

 

I agree that there was a decline and they would eventually be the raiding parties they became, but the argument that pharos was an accurate portrayal of the legion's martial skills at the time (immediately after thramas) isn't an accurate one.

I think that's fair.

[Fedor]

Effective at what though? I've been a fan of Night Lords a long time, right up until FW decided that the original recruits were also terror specialized, were also recruited from territory that was perpetually dark, and...were also criminals or the children of criminals.

 

So really, the Legion fell from nothing. It was always what it was, at least as far as we ever got shown.

 

Edit: posted too fast.

 

In the end though they were well on the decline as an effective military force before the heresy kicked off. Any attempt to hold it together was going to be a limited time affair, and I don't think it's unrealistic to see that based on the totality of the NL lore.

The Night Lords really got shafted in the Forgeworld books. I guess they were going for some sort of hint at there being more than meets the eye to Curze's view on fate, but it was a bizarre road to go down imo.

[mc warhammer]

full disclaimer: haven't read "pharos"

 

is there a middle ground re nightlords tactical ability? that the original slave recruits of terra and nostramo had a more vigorous induction and training regime, with a more selective recruitment (ie: even though they are a criminal element, the kids chosen had real potential to be moulded. not too far away from the original idea of gangers being used for space marines in early gw lore) . in that way, these earlier generations were still up to scratch with the rest of the legions.

 

but the more and more lax recruiting on nostrama eventually delivered diminishing returns by recruiting people who should never have been chosen, whose psychological profile was an ill-fit for the indoctrination (which i think was different to the process after the heresy) meaning that over time the training focus became more about pure terror and kill kill kill than tactics?

 

just spit balling here