Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[Scribe]

Well it speaks to the question of just what 'training' is. There is lore that these kids are essentially mind wiped, so what does it matter where they come from, or how they behave before taken in and tortured, brainwashed, and modified to some genetically modified abomination?

 

Then there is the very common element that death worlds, or 'crap sack' environments somehow create a tougher breed of human. 

 

I highly doubt that is true...but its something to think about.

 

The Heresy had demands for vaster higher induction rates. At that point, shortcuts are likely made in the 'education' aspect?

[mc warhammer]

from what i hear, the training was somewhat different 30k vs 40k.

 

i can understand the training itself being the same between different generations of nightlords, but if you start to have trainers whose proclivity is more "be scary and maim little children, lol tactics. that's an ultramarine thing"...that's a mindset shift. focus leans on one area and the other muscles aren't as worked.

 

for my work i've been trained in a whole range of skillsets. but my actual job needs meant that i leaned on certain ones more than others, to the point where i've barely used some of my training in my career. sure, i had the rigorous training. sure, i could do it if asked. but i'm also not as practised in them as i am in others and what i've used to this point has served me well. so could i perform them as well as someone who does so on a daily basis?

 

could it be that the nightlords shift in focus still allowed them to bring worlds into compliance, but once it became about space marine on space marine action, they found that the skills they let relax over time has put them at a severe disadvantage? the world eaters are in a similar "broken approach' basket, though there's an argument that their grrrr nails thing is a compensating strength.

[DarkChaplain]

Indeed, the indoctrination wasn't nearly as cut and dry in the Great Crusade era, whereas post-Heresy, deliberate mind-wiping via psycho-indoctrination became basically the norm (more so for certain Chapters, like the Grey Knights.

But most of the Heresy-era marines still had pretty clear memories from back home. Night Lords, White Scars, Imperial Fists, it really doesn't matter, most of them clearly know their roots, to the point where we've had numerous flashbacks to their childhoods throughout the series.

 

And you are correct, mc, in that there *was* a shift in recruitment - and the main antagonist of Pharos had a clear hand in screwing with recruitment practices to both bolster his own position within the Legion and strengthen his old family's political hold. The only thing that really changed about this switch in recruitment policy is that we now have a name attached to this, rather than a "this just happened over time and Curze figured it out too late and nuked his world". Now we have an element of deliberate, self-serving sabotage rather than just "everybody screwed up".

 

In Pharos, we also get very vivid scenes of the Night Lords doing what they're good at by pretty much exterminating the civilian population of Sotha. It's horrifying, especially since the PoV characters aren't Astartes either. Their terror tactics worked on the populace, but they didn't work out for them within the confines of a tunnel network professionally secured and guarded by Ultramarines and Fists, while also having power struggles on their own end.

 

I'll also point out yet again that Skraivok was not in charge at Pharos. That was Krukesh of the Kyroptera.

On top of that, the Night Lords at Sotha may have been numerous, but they were all basically stragglers attracted by the Pharos after breaking at Thramas. The Lion captured Sevatar and Curze, and more of the command structure, and the remainder scattered to the winds, just to notice the Pharos and gather there piecemeal.

 

Heck, a lot of the goings-on with their leadership struggle and the difficulty of making those various survivors work was covered in A Safe and Shadowed Place, which first released in 2014 via Death and Defiance, and reprinted in War Without End, which is the anthology preceding Pharos (although Pharos had a Holiday early digital release, thus chronologically releasing a month before War Without End, albeit only for eReaders).

In that short story, they barely even have power or working communications going in. They're crippled, for all intents, and Krukesh arrives late and forces them all to join with him - something that didn't go over well at all, as you can see in Pharos.

 

So to claim that the Night Lords in Pharos are in any way going in with a distinct advantage beyond numbers is pretty short-sighted. They were not an effective fighting force under good leadership. Neither Krukesh nor Skraivok held full control over the assault, with Skraivok undermining Krukesh and Krukesh holding little loyalty from his subordinates.

Even if they had been a stable fighting force, they'd still have been up against the Ultramarines with their fetish for discipline and teamwork, as well as the fortifications of Dantioch and Alexis Polux and other Imperial Fists that were on site from Polux' remaining fleet, survivors of Phall.

 

Frankly, Pharos gets a lot of flak for somehow doing the Night Lords dirty, but really, there's so much context as to why they lose, it's not even funny. Worst of all, they did their damage. They ruined things for Guilliman big time.

Edited September 4, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[byrd9999]

DarkChaplain, your two recent posts on the Night Lords are awesome, thanks for taking the time to write all that up :) 

 

I am still rooting for them to lose, but your context is great.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's immensely easy to dislike the night lords in pharos and such; theres none of the charisma of first claw or sevatar (and that's not a bad thing) coupled with some very graphic scenes.

 

But the flak was very much justified before more context was provided. Every failure of skraivoks marines was hilarious "oh they have a perfect ambush with way more guys...but they suffered more casualties" ; "skraivoks throwing his company into a thanatar guarding a dead end and having a melt down lol" . Hilarious, but made no sense why they were so bad. Why would they continue to use terror tactics in tunnel/siege environments? Why are they so especially insubordinate? Every other piece of media released at the time had them being somewhat competent to go with their negatives.

 

Oh it's because it wasn't written yet.

 

In hindsight it's easy to say; pharos shows what the night lords turn into when they have weak leaders running the show and what the sabotaged recruitment practices result in.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Effective at what though? I've been a fan of Night Lords a long time, right up until FW decided that the original recruits were also terror specialized, were also recruited from territory that was perpetually dark, and...were also criminals or the children of criminals.

 

So really, the Legion fell from nothing. It was always what it was, at least as far as we ever got shown.

 

Edit: posted too fast.

 

In the end though they were well on the decline as an effective military force before the heresy kicked off. Any attempt to hold it together was going to be a limited time affair, and I don't think it's unrealistic to see that based on the totality of the NL lore.

The Night Lords really got shafted in the Forgeworld books. I guess they were going for some sort of hint at there being more than meets the eye to Curze's view on fate, but it was a bizarre road to go down imo.

Forge World still, in the meat of the Exemplary Battles, had the Night Lords competently executing complex tactics.

[Scribe]

Yeah, my issue isn't with that. It's the stunted arc they have post FW book, in reference to their 'fall from grace'.

 

By making the Legion be cut from the same cloth, you don't have 'my Legion was poisoned by criminals! Blow up the planet!'

 

It's instead what it always was, a legion of criminals, from the darkness, never having seen the sun.

[Morovir]

I actually have a bigger problem with Curze than Pharos.

 

Everyone cites the ambush on the station as an example of the deficiency of Skraivok's warriors, but then we have his company (approx. 600 strong) wiping out the orbital over Sotha that had half a company of Ultramarines on it (approx. 500), only losing just over 200 in the process.  In A Safe and Shadowed Place, two companies marooned on the Nycton are described as having descended into open warfare, losing over 100 warriors before order was restored, and Skraivok notes in Pharos that the absence of Curze has accelerated the degeneration of the Legion, with the fracturing of the Legion's command structure hastening this further.

 

In my opinion, Curze is extremely inconsistent with Haley's previous works on the Night Lords.

 

The characterisation of Skraivok as set out by his previous works makes no sense in Curze. He's gone from a man lamenting how far the Legion has fallen in Pharos, and criticising the poor quality of the later recruits in The Painted Count to actively being responsible for this decline in quality in Curze. I understand that Haley created Skraivok, and propelled him to command the Legion, but there was no reason to make him responsible for this as well. Skraivok was always an opportunist and a survivor, but this latest development made no sense.

 

When Curze has his officers gathered to discuss the deterioration of new recruits into the Legion, who does he consult? Not his Kyroptera. Conveniently just the half of his Kyroptera featured in Prince of Crows, the new Kyroptera that Sevatar forms and the two main Night Lords from Lord of the Night, as well as Thandamell, who admittedly actually has a legitimate reason to be there given his position on the Nightfall. No effort to flesh out or even mention Shoma, Jexad and Ithillion, the three other members of the Kyroptera mentioned as having been killed off at the beginning of Prince of Crows and thus not having any characterisation. This just seems like a waste of a perfect opportunity to go into those characters a bit, and would make more sense as many of these characters, especially the new Kyroptera, are not necessarily meant to be the most prestigious captains of the Legion, and to have them conveniently all placed in one discussion seems jarring, especially when better characters could have been used.

 

There's also Haley's bizarre decision to promote Shang to Lord Commander in Curze, a rank that he would not hold in any other later works and something that would have been important in The Painted Count, where Shang was actively involved in the power struggle to command the Legion.

 

He also has Vandred already captaining the 10th Company when they arrive on Tsagualsa, despite ADB's Night Lords trilogy having flashbacks of Malcharion still commanding the company after Curze's death, though admittedly exactly when Malcharion was interred is somewhat vague, and so this is minor in comparison to the other points.

 

There were some curious decisions in Pharos regarding the tactical capabilities of the Night Lords, but at least it was consistent with Haley's other works, unlike Curze.

[bluntblade]

That sounds like Storm of Iron Syndrome.

[Scribe]

Master of Mankind - ADB

 

I could actually go on and on and on about this book but I will keep it short.

 

I have not read it in years, picked it up yesterday, and just tore through it again. My little pet theory on the Heresy being a Tragedy in the Classic sense was perhaps reinforced, if not intentionally, then...well its good enough for me.

 

All because one charismatic man believed that the powers that heeded his calls could be trusted. By the time he realized they could not, he believed himself powerful enough to control them, independent enough to resist them. What harm in one more gift, if it allowed his clan to thrive? What harm in one more sacrifice, if it ensure a strong harvest or victory in a coming war? And when it came time to die, what would this powerful, independent man do? Would he go silently into the ground? Would he slumber upon a funeral pyre? Or would he - for the good of his people - reach for longer life at any cost?

 

Sound like anyone we know?

 

As is typical, the characters in an ADB book are first rate. The dialogue hits. The simple vibrancy of each character or role, is just exactly what it should be. His description of the Warp and Daemons in all their metaphysical and philosophical glory.

 

This is what defines the setting for me.

 

Ultimately as I finished the book, and with the Afterword thrown in to remove any and all doubt as to what was at stake and what was lost and what it MEANS to 40K?

 

This is probably one of the most important books in all the lore.

 

10/10.

 

(PS: Zephon deserved far far better than the showing in Saturnine.)

[Fire Golem]

Just finished the Curze Primarch novella, and I really, really liked it. I think it’s Haley’s best book and the best Primarch book I’ve read (although it has been a while since I’ve read any others and recency bias is a thing). I find the Night Lords, and particularly Curze, really hard to get a handle on how I feel about them, it’s a strange mix of horror and revulsion, and pity and regret. Even felt a bit emotional towards the end. I liked the non-linear format, I liked the Corax/Curze interaction, I really liked Sevatar, as always. Rather impressed. 

[Scribe]

Was wondering on the overall quality of the Primarchs series. I have to admit that I was underwhelmed by Angrons, other that a few scenes in the flashbacks.

 

Any rough ranking on those or 'must reads'?

[Noserenda]

The Primarchs series is a bit mixed to say the least, Guiliman and Vulkan are painfully bad, most of the rest have some excellent moments alongside some flaws but a few are seriously great like Lorgar or Perturabo (Plus a couple of others which escape my brain right now) but overall i like em. Except Guiliman and Vulkan, what a waste :/ 

[theSpirea]

I also liked Curze's book. I can recommend Fulgrim's novel. Reynolds managed to do more in a short novel than McNeill in 500+ pages HH 5 Fulgrim with the character and the legion.

[Scribe]

Great, thx folks.

[Fire Golem]

I liked Corax, Fulgrim, the Khan, Perturabo (and Curze of course). Heard good things about Lorgar but haven’t got round to it yet. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've only read Corax, Curze and the Lion so far, but I liked all three of those. I was planning on reading the Khan next for that series.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Thoughts on the Primarch novels I've read:

 

Russ - actually can't remember too much about this one, but it was alright, from what I remember. Nothing world-shaking, but does expand on Russ being the second Primarch found.

 

Curze - Amazing, really plays into the idea of Curze simultaneously being trapped by a predestined fate while also ensuring that predestined fate was the only possibility.

 

Khan - Very good, shows how arrogant he was, that things could have turned out very differently if he just didn't assume that everyone would just recognize his genius if given enough time.

 

Lorgar - a very interesting fleshing out of life on Colchis, how a "Chaos" worshiping planet can still be a fully functioning society, without instantly devolving into rampant murder and genocide.

 

Corax - a nice insight that Corax isn't the impartial arbiter of Imperial justice that he pretends he is, get on his bad side and he'll effectively sabotage the Imperial war effort to ensure you get what you "deserve".

 

Fulgrim - absolutely amazing, shows a very nuanced view of the Primarch, that goes into his fears and shows why his fall was such a tragedy.

 

Perturabo - many love it, I was... ehh... The stuff about the Hrud I pretty much just skipped over, and it steers into the derp portrayal of Perturabo too much at times, blaming his Legion for not succeeding in literally impossible situations. Sure, the final scene is kind of interesting, seeing how broken he gets, but I also feel kind of misses the point a bit. Sure, he gets broken by the constant siege work, and points out his martyr tendencies, but on the other hand these are orders from both the Emperor and the Warmaster. You don't really just say "no, don't wanna do it" to that. You get told to garrison, you garrison. You get told to lay siege, you lay siege. You don't get out of it by saying "but that sounds boring and hard, can't someone else do it?"

 

Ferrus Manus - Ugh... this book... Some people absolutely love it, I on the other hand cannot understand how you can like a book that has Ferrus whine that "my own father doesn't know me", then not even 10 pages later (eBook, at least) say that "his brothers would see who he truly was, and it was exactly what they had all already known. He was the Gorgon". Which is it, Ferrus? Are you a poor misunderstood soul who even your father doesn't understand, or someone that everybody gets? It can't be both.

It turns what was originally a campaign executed flawlessly by Ferrus Manus, saving a floundering campaign of the Ultramarines and Thousand Sons with his own style of ruthlessness and cold logic, befitting a Primarch that literally commanded a third of the Great Crusade, into a blind fool blundering into the most obvious of traps that others had already tripped before.

 

"Oh no, who could have foreseen that the enemy would use psykers to influence the peace talks, after they'd already done that to the Thousand Sons? If only I could have had some sort of prior warning so that I could undertake protections! Other than the debriefings of the Thousand Sons where they explicitly mentioned this happening, of course. Oh no, after I've taken over the invasion after the Ultramarines got devastated by WMDs, the enemy is using WMDs against us, and I've blundered my forces into positions so they'll get wiped out if WMDs are used! Who could have foreseen this?!?" 

Who could have seen that the enemy would do exactly what they've already successfully done before? Literally anyone, Ferrus. Literally. Bloody. Anyone.

 

It's a good thing he's got the Emperors Children led by commander Marius Suevius tagging along to upstage his Legion in every way possible, otherwise he'd never have made it to Istvaan to get beheaded. It's like Guymer read Fulgrim and came out thinking "well this is a guy who obviously runs face-first into every obvious trap he ever encounters, let's roll with that as his sole defining trait other than grumpy".

The only thing Ferrus successfully does on his own in this story is angry his way out of a psychic attack, and beat up Marius Suevius in a practice match after said EC humiliates every other Iron Hand there in combat, even when there's multiple IH attacking him at once.

 

EDIT: fixed some tags.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Roomsky]

Was wondering on the overall quality of the Primarchs series. I have to admit that I was underwhelmed by Angrons, other that a few scenes in the flashbacks.

 

Any rough ranking on those or 'must reads'?

 

Honestly just follow your usual author inclinations. Wraight's stuff is either great (Khan) or decent with great scenes (Russ.) Haley's are all over the place; he wrote a decent Corax book that stands on its own while simultaneously improving Thorpe's work, Perturabo is mediocre over all but I'd still recommend it because the last third is very strong, and Curze is tripe though most people seem to enjoy it.

 

Whatever you do, make sure you read Fulgrim. Between that, his Fabius Bile series, and Wraight's Eidolon you get all the great III legion you'll ever need.

 

I'd rate Fulgrim, Khan, Angron and Ferrus (note that most people hate Ferrus) as good, put Vulkan, The Lion and Curze in the trash, and place the rest anywhere from mediocre to readable.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Roomsky

[mc warhammer]

even though the story was more or less "readable", i actually liked thorpe's interpretation of lorgar more than most depictions

[Indefragable]

 

Was wondering on the overall quality of the Primarchs series. I have to admit that I was underwhelmed by Angrons, other that a few scenes in the flashbacks.

 

Any rough ranking on those or 'must reads'?

 

Honestly just follow your usual author inclinations. Wraight's stuff is either great (Khan) or decent with great scenes (Russ.) Haley's are all over the place; he wrote a decent Corax book that stands on its own while simultaneously improving Thorpe's work, Perturabo is mediocre over all but I'd still recommend it because the last third is very strong, and Curze is tripe though most people seem to enjoy it.

 

Whatever you do, make sure you read Fulgrim. Between that, his Fabius Bile series, and Wraight's Eidolon you get all the great III legion you'll ever need.

 

I'd rate Fulgrim, Khan, Angron and Ferrus (note that most people hate Ferrus) as good, put Vulkan and Curze in the trash, and place the rest anywhere from mediocre to readable.

 

 

@Scribe

 

How I would rank them:

 

Tier 1

• 1. Fulgrim: ranked as #1 because this is the gold standard all other Primarchs books are measured against. This is everything you want in a series like this: reason to mourn what could have been
• 2. Leman Russ: this one does not get as much love from others, but I think this is the 2nd best of them. It also one of the few BL works I've ever read/listened to multiple times. Simply put, it's character study and is a 2-for-1 in that you get one of the best portrayals of Lion El'Jonson yet to appear in any work. I sometimes mentally think of it as the Lion's book instead for that reason. Yet focusing so much on another character only aids its character study of Russ, rather than detracting from it. It also shows us one of the iconic moments in HH lore and does it convincingly. What' not to love? 
• (rest are unranked). 
• Curze: this is a polarizing one, and given the framing of the narrative and the Hostel elements of sadism shown, its not hard to see why. However, any way you slice it (oooooooof....too soon given the topic?), it is very well written and creative and gives us what we've always wanted: a Primarch's story in his own words. 
• Khan: Wraight do what Wraight do. All the better for its relative simplicity. Excellent cameos. "Warhawk" indeed. 
• Lorgar: there are few moments you can point to as "wow" for this, but the entire package is what is well done. Thorpe does an excellent job world building, in fact, were this not connected to 40k, it would be pretty intriguing to explore in and of itself. A good job fleshing out a character with just enough twists to stay fresh. 

 

Tier 2:

These are mostly ok stories with a few "wow!" scenes, elements, or ideas that greatly redeem them or are simply too memorable, but the rest of the book lacks anything special. 

• Perturabo: That ending....
  The Bridge Over River Kwai moment is one of the best in all of BL fiction
• Magnus: An interesting and new premise (humanitarian Space Marines!) with some other interesting ideas mixed in, that, allowed to breathe a bit more and without the
  pathological need to insert bolter porn
  could have been something truly special. 
• Angron: sounds like you've already read it, but another example of a not-that-special overall story with some true gems mixed in.
  My personal favorite is Khârn finding Angron on the backwater planet where he's become a protector to the tribal peoples
• Corax: in contrast the above, this is a solid story overall. To me, at least, nothing particular stands out, but there's nothing that really detracts either. Really can't go wrong reading this one. 

 

Tier 3:

These, in my opinion, offer little redeeming value: 

 

Ferrus Manus: some people like this one. I'm re-listening to it to try to give it another shake. It's huge disappointment in my view. My complaints are similar to others' and they tend to fall into thus:  

Most of these books are or should be a Primarch/Legion's moment in the limelight. A chance to get to know something about them. Ferrus' book basically makes them looks like doofuses and is basically saying <insert George Carlin voice> " 'e was askin' fer it!" as to why Ferrus is the first Primarch to die. In comparison to some of the others in this list, this is an example of including another legion to contrast, but instead being a love letter to the "other" Legion and dumping all over the subject matter.

 

Vulkan: Space Marines beat up on Orkz. 

 

Guilliman: Space Marines beat up on Orkz, but the actual line "he swung his sword with the force of reason" is used to describe how and why Guilliman can beat an Ork. 

 

Lion El'Jonson: have not yet read

[mc warhammer]

i have a hunch roomsky is right that scribe will probably enjoy the series based on his author preferences.

 

i liked haley's contributions on the whole, my main problem with them being that all 3 followed the same story beat structure (with each novel ending with a moment of confrontation/realisation for the primarch brought about by a beloved figure exposing the truth underneath the lies the primarch had told himself). that may also have been readily apparent because i read them all close to each other.

 

i really, really liked ferrus...but that's also because i don't care if the primarch books show each legion's "limelight" (and i'm unsure if that was a stated aim in the series), i just want something interesting. and interesting for me is regardless of whether a character is shown in a positive or negative light.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The problem is that it could have been so, so much better. It was supposed to be one of the defining battles of why Ferrus was a serious contender for Warmaster, and got turned into a farce where he lays into the Thousand Sons and Ultramarines for falling into traps, only to blunder into those exact same traps himself. That's not interesting, that's getting close to parody.

 

I'm also a little bitter that Ferrus' only other appearance in the entire Heresy was where he got beaten in a fight by Fulgrim and knocked unconscious, then fought again later and got killed. This was the one opportunity to show "hey Iron Hands fans, this is why your Primarch was awesome", and he gets turned from one of the best tacticians of the Primarchs into a guy with the tactical awareness of a charging bison with memory problems.

They don't just have to be interesting, they have to be valid portrayals of the character. Ferrus' Primarch book is not that.

 

At this rate, Ferrus dying at Istvaan is probably for the best. If he'd lived on afterwards, he'd probably trip and land face-first on a Vortex warhead while defending Terra, or Leroy Jenkins himself straight into the traitors leaving the gate open behind him.

[Scribe]

Interesting, seems the only one I may be interested in that is divisive is Curze.

 

I'll probably stick with the ones I expect greatness out of first, and see if Curze can pull me in later (or depending on availability at the shop, whatever is there! lol)

 

What's the negatives to Curze, just gross out gore stuff or poorly written? 

[mc warhammer]

The problem is that it could have been so, so much better. It was supposed to be one of the defining battles of why Ferrus was a serious contender for Warmaster, and got turned into a farce where he lays into the Thousand Sons and Ultramarines for falling into traps, only to blunder into those exact same traps himself. That's not interesting, that's getting close to parody.

 

I'm also a little bitter that Ferrus' only other appearance in the entire Heresy was where he got beaten in a fight by Fulgrim and knocked unconscious, then fought again later and got killed. This was the one opportunity to show "hey Iron Hands fans, this is why your Primarch was awesome", and he gets turned from one of the best tacticians of the Primarchs into a guy with the tactical awareness of a charging bison with memory problems.

They don't just have to be interesting, they have to be valid portrayals of the character. Ferrus' Primarch book is not that.

 

At this rate, Ferrus dying at Istvaan is probably for the best. If he'd lived on afterwards, he'd probably trip and land face-first on a Vortex warhead while defending Terra, or Leroy Jenkins himself straight into the traitors leaving the gate open behind him.

 

yeah, that's fair you don't find that interesting. for me, hypocrisy, hubris, insecurity, self deception and all those things in characters who present a strong or infallible self image to the world at large is something i find interesting. campaigns or events that are publicly lauded but have a less than honourable underbelly in truth is something i also find interesting. the final scene with ferrus and fulgrim talking made this book for me: it really shone a light on the psychology of the primarchs. they take the glory on the bones and bodies of those that serve them.

 

i don't see anything farcical about, but then again, i see that played out irl around me on an almost daily basis.

 

this book made me like ferrus more than any other portrayal. i know that's a minority view though.

Interesting, seems the only one I may be interested in that is divisive is Curze.

 

I'll probably stick with the ones I expect greatness out of first, and see if Curze can pull me in later (or depending on availability at the shop, whatever is there! lol)

 

What's the negatives to Curze, just gross out gore stuff or poorly written? 

i didn't mind the gore and sadism. i thought there was a brilliant bit of stockholm syndrome played out in the book as well.

 

from what i hear, some readers didn't feel the character gelled well with adb's or spurrier's depictions.