Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[mc warhammer]

well, you could argue (and adb has himself to a point) that both LotN and the night lords trilogies imply that any nobility on curze's part was purely self deception.

 

haley's novel does lean into that angle strongly too

[SkimaskMohawk]

So, I picked up Curzes Primarchs book, and honestly I doubt I finish it any time soon.

 

If FW stifled any desire in me collecting the Army by removing any real difference in the Legion pre and post reunion, then the first 60 pages have completely snuffed that desire by removing any and all ambiguity from there ever being any nobility in Curze at all.

 

What an unbelievable hatchet job FW and BL have done to this section of the lore.

 

Much like how Wrath of Iron is where my Iron Hands now starts and finishes, ADBs Night Lords will seemingly be all I ever accept as head canon.

 

What a monumental waste.

 

Edit: with luck I also picked up Praetorian of Dorn. Hopefully that delivers.

Well the book is structured oddly compared to a traditional one. It's basically in medias res; curze as narrator is absolutely at his worst and most crazy, but also at the very end of his journey. Towards the middle iirc, there's a lot more of him trying to Konrad Curze instead of the night haunter. Might not change your opinion in the long run, but it is worth reading more.

[theSpirea]

I have to say I enjoyed the Curze's Primarch novel a lot. I'm not that familiar with NL, haven't read the NL trilogy by ADB yet, and I don't follow tabletop/FW part of the WH. Maybe that helped me enjoying the book? Who knows, one day I might get back to it and I end up hating it.

[Scribe]

It's not a question of where he ends up, that's understood.

 

Within the first 60 pages you already have flashbacks to his original experiences as a young Night Haunter, and unless we want to say that his future self is the inner voice narrator, the we accept his account in the moment as present tense.

 

There was room to question how his journey began. There was room to believe that the delusion of nobility was believable.

 

Emphasis on delusion of nobility. Something to make the view of Talos at least defensible.

 

60 pages removes that. Curze was a monster immediately, full stop, enjoyed everything he did, and had opportunity to go down a different path.

 

The setting is more shallow for this book existing.

 

It kind of speaks to a similar issue with the heresy/40k lack of difference.

 

A tragedy is lessened when you fall from nothing, and it's always been the same.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Scribe

[DarkChaplain]

I think you'd be better off finishing the book and reevaluating your midway review after that point. Your issue is actually addressed throughout.

[mc warhammer]

i agree with that tragedy take, especially with what we got with fulgrim. idk if any of the writers ever saw curze as particularly tragic though

 

you might just want to read the bit where he encounters corax. might be the closest to what you're looking for

[Scribe]

I'll probably go back to it, but imagine if Angron pre-nails was already frothing at the mouth, and his Legion did nothing but hurl bodies at their enemies?

 

When nothing changes throughout the narrative, what's the point.

[Indefragable]

@Scribe I think Curze's novella is worth finishing, as others have noted. 

 

The other thing to keep in mind is the "emperor's new clothes" angle going on with his entire arc. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I liked the Curze novel quite a lot. I think you should finish it.

He did have the opportunity to go down different paths, but that is important and I think you will have more to think about that when done.

[mc warhammer]

is this the novel that shows shang as a pretty stand up kinda guy compared to the other night lords?

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not a question of where he ends up, that's understood.

 

Within the first 60 pages you already have flashbacks to his original experiences as a young Night Haunter, and unless we want to say that his future self is the inner voice narrator, the we accept his account in the moment as present tense.

 

There was room to question how his journey began. There was room to believe that the delusion of nobility was believable.

 

Emphasis on delusion of nobility. Something to make the view of Talos at least defensible.

 

60 pages removes that. Curze was a monster immediately, full stop, enjoyed everything he did, and had opportunity to go down a different path.

 

The setting is more shallow for this book existing.

 

It kind of speaks to a similar issue with the heresy/40k lack of difference.

 

A tragedy is lessened when you fall from nothing, and it's always been the same.

I tend to agree with your opinions when it comes this section of the forum, but man...You really can't comment on the book's merit when you've read the first bit.

 

The tragedy is that he's a recovering victim of serious mental health issues, but suffers relapses and gets depressed and doubles down on the wrong decisions out of sunk-cost fallacies and self hatred, like a lot of people who exhibit self-destructive and suicidal behaviour. Like, the book makes it pretty clear that he gets a lot better after being made legion master and when he has a murder-seizure for the first time after his progress, it starts a spiral of self loathing and doubt about any inherent goodness.

 

Idk, watch an episode of intervention where the screen-time ends with them doing really well in their treatment center, but the afterword has them relapse and commit suicide. That's a little tragic no?

[Scribe]

I'll finish it and write up a better review. ;)

[Fedor]

haley's curze was largely in line with the previous portrayals of the character imo. This is the character that when given a bit of push back in Prince of Crows about not really trying another way on Nostramo, quite quickly admits he just liked the vigilante killing.

 

That said, it would be nice to see the more restrained great crusade Curze as he tries to fit into the imperium more often, most what we've got is him towards the end of the decline.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Fedor

[Scribe]

Konrad Curze - The Night Haunter

 

Full Disclosure: I started this book in a foul mood. Late at night, and with resentment towards the handling of the Night Lords by FW still fresh on my mind.

 

Full Disclosure 2: This book is dark. Mental Illness and Suicidal themes are present.

 

That said, this book was a lot better than I was giving it credit for, while still not hitting every note exactly as I (personally, selfishly, head canon) would desire.

 

This is only the 2nd book in this series that I have read, Angron being the other, and 2 is not a very large sample size, but it feels like these books are intended to hit the heavy lore points that already exist (Primarch origin, expand on past lore such as Index Astartes, Codex, and other Novels) and fill in some of the blanks. Is that how all of them are structured? Maybe, maybe not, but again there is no large revelation here.

 

We know where Curze came from. We know how he was 'raised' and we knew his approach to his planet. We know how he prosecuted his wars of compliance, and this novel hits on a vast majority if not all of the touch stones of the Night Lords throughout the BL catalog. In some ways this is great, other times it kind of falls down and just seems to be name dropping for the sake of name dropping. I'm sure you will recognize when that takes place (last quarter of the book I think).

 

So, I mentioned its a better story than I thought, and its certainly better than Angron imo, while it didnt hit the note I wanted with Curze in particular? What does that mean?

 

1. I know Curze goes mad.

2. I know he was unstable throughout the Crusade, we see this in past works, and so to be faithful to the canon, he must be unstable throughout the timeline represented here.

3. I know that Fear and Terror are the ways in which the Night Lords operate.

4. I know that Punishment, was really just as important if not more so, than Justice, and we see that in the end of the book I feel.

 

So what was my problem? Origin. Innocence. Its not particularly relevant, so you can skip it, but here.

 

There was a time, when the Legion was not Curzes Legion, but simply it was the 8th. The arc of the Legion then went from one of being reunited with Curze, performing acts of Terror to force Compliance, being poisoned with criminal elements from Nostramo. Curze is enraged, and as is right and just, blows the planet up.

 

Forge World changed that. The FW 8th, was built on the recruitment of prisoners, from underground, perpetually dark caves/hives, which never saw the light. Just as with Nostramo, the Legion was built literally from criminal elements, or the feral children of former criminals.

 

While there is a distinction that can be made, I have never reconciled why FW chose to move so close to the same origin point. I do not understand the why of it, as it simply removes contrast.

 

This applies to Curze in this novel. Curze was undefined before. He was, long long ago, seen as something of a 40K version (aka hyper violent, brutal, extreme, OOT) version of Batman. He became what criminals feared, and made the world know peace through that Terror.

 

This book doesnt change that, BUT, and this was my head canon, it does absolutely state that he enjoyed it. Not the act of Justice. He enjoyed the actual execution of his Justice. This was not satisfaction from seeing justice done, and it was not even a cold detachment.

 

He outright, in his 'adolescent' phase of hyper growth, enjoyed the act of Murder, and Torture. Personally? That detracts from his arc.

 

That said, its not super relevant to the arc of this story, but as I think on it further...maybe it is.

 

So what is it about?

 

In a very big way, this book is about mental illness. I have people in my family who struggle with mental illness, and I covered this I believe a bit in the Angron review, and there are sections here that are fairly accurate.

 

Curze is without a doubt ill. Start to finish. The 'pet' is mentally ill. The captain of the ship, is mentally ill. Criminals, of the kind who come to rule Nostramo, are mentally ill. The whole of Nostramo, is ill.

 

Its pretty overwhelming to the plot of the book, but for Curze in particularly, it is the plot. His self loathing, his inability to control himself. His detachment from reality and time/space. The contradictions by the end are practically every other sentence, and so as a reader I found it very clear that Curze himself is utterly full of it by the end, and perhaps (going back to the Origin) he always was. The hatred, the love, the need's he has. Its really really clear.

 

That said....

 

You all mentioned the Corax portion, and I thank you for doing so, as that shows that despite himself, or maybe DUE TO his own nature, he did impart the 'noble' vision of Fear/Terror to his Legion.

 

That little section alone was enough to relight the spark of 'maybe you do want a Night Lord force...' but we shall have to think about that.

 

Something else that I thought of while reading it was what it says about suicide. If Curze was so full of loathing, why didnt he just find a way out? Fate is nothing, if you force its hand after all. Well thats covered 2 ways, once in a flash back, and finally with the ending we all know.

 

Something also interesting at the end that I really enjoyed, is the whole 'teaching the lesson over and over'. That goes both ways. Its not just the Imperium being taught, and I liked that quite a bit.

 

The point is the punishment.

 

------------------------------------

 

As to the window dressing? I liked it well enough. I did not like the name dropping, it became excessive. I didnt mind the gore, I mean look at this Legion what do you expect, and to the shock of nobody, I was not a fan of the Raven Guard 'appearance' (though the scene is great and needed) but at least that gets explained in a way I can finally accept.

 

As a story I liked it a lot. A few minor quibbles but honestly?

 

7.5 or 8/10 - You'll come away understanding Curze, both as a raging hypocrite, and a self deluding liar, but also as an utterly broken thing, who's justification for his own hungers, shaped a Legion and damned himself.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'll agree that the forgeworld original terran intake is kind of...pointless. Them being pretty similar but from terra doesn't add anything, and is something I think they realized that because in Crusade they try to redraw the line between the veterans/og intake from nostramo (who have a code of honour and tend to respect curze more) and the latter generations (who just want to be warlords and do their own thing). Still doesn't really give an interesting distinction to the terran intake.

 

I do very much enjoy the irony that for all corax' trash talk in his book to guilliman about curze being more vengeful than a force of justice, curze very much tries to only punish those that broke an actual law during the crusade, while corax flies off the handle and gets mad.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'll just say that the implication I got from the FW write-up was that the VIIIth weren't recruited from the criminals in the under-prisons, but from the "children of the night", those who had been born there and were rejecting what had caused their ancestors and their like to be imprisoned there. They were what the Night Lords were supposed to be. The Night Lords recruiting criminals wasn't so much the issue, even the modern Imperial Fists recruits from the Necromundan underhive, a region not exactly known for its robust adherence to the law, but that they were allowing the mindset to remain. Where once they were being subjected to intensive indoctrination and hypnotherapy to ensure their loyalty, now they were being handed a bolter and suit of power armour, and told to have fun out there.

[mc warhammer]

haley's curze was largely in line with the previous portrayals of the character imo. This is the character that when given a bit of push back in Prince of Crows about not really trying another way on Nostramo, quite quickly admits he just liked the vigilante killing.

 

That said, it would be nice to see the more restrained great crusade Curze as he tries to fit into the imperium more often, most what we've got is him towards the end of the decline.

 

yeah, i'd like to read that. we only have glimpses of it in the primarch's novel (curze's encounter with corax) and the night haunter's maiden speech from adb:

 

"Look out at my father's Imperium. Do not unroll a parchment map or analyse a hololithic starchart. Merely raise your head to the night sky and open your eyes. Stare into the blackness between worlds – that dark ocean, the silent sea. Stare into the million eyes of firelight – each a sun to be subjugated in the Emperor’s grip. The age of the alien, the era of the inhuman, is over. Mankind is in its ascendancy, and with ten thousand claws we will lay claim to the stars themselves.‘"

 

before it became

 

"My sons, the galaxy is burning. We all bear witness to a final truth -- our way is not the way of the Imperium. You have never stood in the Emperor’s light. Never worn the Imperial eagle. And you never will. You shall stand in midnight clad, your claws forever red with the lifeblood of my father’s failed empire, warring through the centuries as the talons of a murdered god. Rise, my sons, and take your wrath across the stars, in my name. In my memory. Rise, my Night Lords."

 

his time with fulgrim might be a good place to explore that

[Scribe]

I'll just say that the implication I got from the FW write-up was that the VIIIth weren't recruited from the criminals in the under-prisons, but from the "children of the night", those who had been born there and were rejecting what had caused their ancestors and their like to be imprisoned there. They were what the Night Lords were supposed to be. The Night Lords recruiting criminals wasn't so much the issue, even the modern Imperial Fists recruits from the Necromundan underhive, a region not exactly known for its robust adherence to the law, but that they were allowing the mindset to remain. Where once they were being subjected to intensive indoctrination and hypnotherapy to ensure their loyalty, now they were being handed a bolter and suit of power armour, and told to have fun out there.

 

I believe this could have been the case, however there was a micro short, with I think the origin story of a Psyker, Terran, 8th Legion, and either he was a feral child in this pit of darkness, or he was 'recruiting' from this place and those he found where children hunting an astartes.

 

My issue is them coming from even remotely the same environment as Nostramo. It just didnt need to be UNLESS, the concept was 'we have a fated plan for the 8th, and we know exactly what they are to be, and to become.'.

 

I dont really like that take either though.

[mc warhammer]

 

I'll just say that the implication I got from the FW write-up was that the VIIIth weren't recruited from the criminals in the under-prisons, but from the "children of the night", those who had been born there and were rejecting what had caused their ancestors and their like to be imprisoned there. They were what the Night Lords were supposed to be. The Night Lords recruiting criminals wasn't so much the issue, even the modern Imperial Fists recruits from the Necromundan underhive, a region not exactly known for its robust adherence to the law, but that they were allowing the mindset to remain. Where once they were being subjected to intensive indoctrination and hypnotherapy to ensure their loyalty, now they were being handed a bolter and suit of power armour, and told to have fun out there.

 

I believe this could have been the case, however there was a micro short, with I think the origin story of a Psyker, Terran, 8th Legion, and either he was a feral child in this pit of darkness, or he was 'recruiting' from this place and those he found where children hunting an astartes.

 

My issue is them coming from even remotely the same environment as Nostramo. It just didnt need to be UNLESS, the concept was 'we have a fated plan for the 8th, and we know exactly what they are to be, and to become.'.

 

I dont really like that take either though.

 

that does seem to be a possibility that they're suggesting

 

especially when the forgeworld stuff is taken in conjunction with the valdor novel

 

i'm on the fence about it. it makes sense if the emperor is prescient (see the way dr manhattan thinks in a non linear fashion in "watchmen") but nothing particularly interesting has been done with it. yet.

[Scribe]

It makes sense assuming they wanted to push each of the legions in a very specific direction, and honestly everything coming out of FW, especially the new Dark Angels stuff, would all seem to point that way.

 

I think its a very poor way to go about things, when we are talking about the LEGIONS for Khornes sake, not 1000 Marines, not hyper focused companies, but the actual LEGIONS are all type cast??

 

Just seems shallow.

 

One of the things Curze (unreliable narrator I get it) mused on is one of the things I really hope gets covered before the end of all this.

 

The Emperors deal with the Devil(s).

 

I just want it written about, please BL....

[Kelborn]

Though I agree that the basically same heritage of both, Nostraman and Terran recruits is not a very clever way to go with but I think they've done it to show what the Legion could've be/ become.

 

The Terran 8th has a sense of honour, righteousness and purpose. Even Curze was getting better while being with them.

It was his trust in his sons to take new recruits what "broke" him again. They or rather Skraivok betrayed him for personal power and status. We know that only because of that lil' bastard, was the Legion doomed by him.

 

Honestly, I'd love to read more about the "good" times of the Legion.

 

It's more about contrast between what the Emperor made them for and what could've been and what they've become. Imagine Skraivok would not have been receuites. Would the Legion stay "sane and true"? Would Curze maybe have stayed loyal? Because it was his destruction of Nostramo which finally turned the tides against him (along with him almost butchering Dorn but that could've been forgiven if he'd talked to the Emperor).

 

Well, it is what it is.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I imagine it that the incident with Dorn is what truly broke Night Haunter. It was his final attempt to actively change fate, and it blew up in his face in the worst way possible, cementing in his mind that the future was set and there was nothing he could do about it.

 

It wasn't just Skraivok, it was the failure of the Imperial governance of the world to maintain order there. Curze got it "working" (well, his particular brand of working), and trusted that it wouldn't implode the moment he left.

 

As for the focus of the pre-Primarch Legions, we've known for a while now that certain gene-lines created certain psychological changes in the implantees that are implied to be more than just cultural practices, such as the stubbornness inherent in Dornian and Vulkanian (not sure what this term would be) geneseed, or the faith of Lorgars descendants. This just seems to be expanding on this, that the psychic element of the Primarchs influenced their geneseed just as much as their physical aspects did, and affect those implanted to a similar degree.

[MegaVolt87]

Talos was completely deluded in his perception of the Night Haunter and the character of his legion. Konrads primarch book finally settled matters properly. Every character told Talos so over the three books but he is too far off in lala land, then when he finally acknowledges what everyone is saying he destroys the warband to make himself feel better. No to mention there is nothing wrong with his genseed, his body and very soul rejects the genetic legacy of Haunter to boot! Konrad is a completely deluded character between what he says, believes and acts are all completely different and hypocritical. I never understood why people try so hard to find nobility in the NL, it was never there except in their own minds and never really reflected in their behaviour. Not even a legion like IW's who hold grudges on their brothers screw over their fellow brothers as badly as NL do to each other. NL's being bad people doesn't make you a bad person for liking them, don't get uppity when people say they are scumbags because they are proud of it themselves. 

[Indefragable]

@MegaVolt87 : haha. So true. Just because we get to read the bad guy’s diary and see how he saw it does not make him any less of a bad guy. One could see ADB’s NL as a window into a serial killer’s mind, how they see the world and how they are able to do what they do....but they’re still a serial killer for crying out loud. *

 

***********

 

I think there’s some common elements between the Terran VIII and the Terran XVII, and even the Terran/Solar XIII, in the sense that they each have the Janissary** angle going on. Each were recruited from “undesirables” of a sort, whether from the conquered-but-barely-compliant cultures or the dregs of society. Having their children inducted into elite military formations served multiple purposes, simultaneously holding them hostage, honoring them with elevated status, and giving the recruits who genuinely believed in the cause a chance to atone for the sins of their forebears. For me, I think this last part is where there is an inkling of nobility in the Night Lord story: the children of criminals working to cleanse their lineage of its sins; using the dark to cleanse the dark in seeking the light. It’s a (wonderfully 40k Grimdark) take on the Batman story: rather than a rich kid going vigilante out of the sadness of his parents’ death, it’s a bunch of rich kids joining the police force to atone for their parents’ murdering with impunity.

 

...that’s the potential of the story, at least, if you want to read it that way. It certainly isn’t clearly stated that way and for once I wish FW was less subtle with it if that was their intention.

 

I agree that the VIII’s arc in the FW books is perhaps the most disappointing of all of them.

 

 

*all SM, and in fact most “effective” forces in 40k fit this criteria by our modern standards, so let’s not lose all perspective....but certain groups are undeniably worse than others

 

**Indy’s 2 second history version:

Hidden Content

Janissaries were the elite (military and then later political in a more established sense than the Roman Praetorians) of the Ottomon Empire. They were originally comprised of the sons of conquered Christian peoples (Ottomon ruling caste was primarily Muslim) “recruited” (voluntarily or otherwise) into a special military unit. This unit had no ties to the greater Ottomon society and thus was 100% loyal to only the rulers. Being recruited and trained from such an early age also groomed them into being a true Elite force at the time.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Indefragable

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not sure how you read Curze and say that Talos was completely deluded and that the Night Lords never had any nobility.

 

The part where the raven guard show up has Curze ask one of the members of the command squad what the purpose of fear and terror are and such. The marine answers proudly how terror is bloodless in comparison to mass warfare, that it disarms civilizations and is "the friend of compliance". When asked about the the methods (aka torture and making examples) his voice noticeably hardens; it's something he doesn't enjoy. In another scene when curze is playing footage of the murder of officers, many of the commanders are described as ashamed at the behaviour; Ophion declares his men are "bringers of justice" when accused of harbouring similar elements. To say Talos was deluded is wrong, because the causing of fear for its own sake was very much not a homogenous belief.

 

Similarly there's many noble elements shown in the story. Shang's devotion to Curze and trying to save him at the cost of the respect of everyone else is noble. Sevatar's uncompromising dedication to duty and the ideals of justice and punishment is noble. Curze's struggle against mental health to try and live up to the Emperor's belief in him is noble. Are they good people? No. But that's not a requirement for nobility.