Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[Scribe]

100% with Skimask here. There is nobility (in a 40K kinda way) in limiting damage and loss of life, by sacrificing ones own soul in the performance of the types of actions the Night Lords perform.

 

Let's be real, skinning people is monstrous. The calculus of bombing a million, or skinning 100 to achieve the same end is the question.

 

The burden on the Night Lords is conceptually real. If they don't enjoy it, they do it at the very real cost of their psyche.

 

It's why I absolutely will forever loathe Prospero Burns, and will never EVER accept the Wolves as executioners.

 

That's not who they are. They are not the ones who would go to any lengths, no matter the brutality required.

 

ADB tried to fix it (those blurbs got posted here before ever being published) but it was always nonsense.

 

Night Lords were the ones going into the blackest parts of the mind. They were the ones staining their souls.

[Roomsky]

Alright, time to die on this hill.

 

Everyone knows by now that the Night Lords and their primarch are a reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. I won’t claim that codex entries are the best place to find nuance, but Lord of the Night, the seminal Night Lords novel, certainly is.

 

The Horus Heresy’s treatment of Curze and his legion is like filming a prequel to Apocalypse Now where Benjamin and Kurtz act exactly like they do at the end of the film; Kurtz is always sitting in unlit rooms and speaking florid nonsense regardless of the situation, Benjamin is shellshocked by events he hasn’t experienced. You know, something that would not only miss the entire point of their end state, but actively undermine it. Curze, never drawn by Blanche like to many of his peers, was described as being a walking cadaver with long, unkempt hair to show that he had degenerated from something people once respected. You know, like the much-lauded Kurtz at the end of the film/novel. Having Curze look like that from day one is the same bloody thing as Kurtz being portrayed as I described above, it misses the entire point.

 

Taking Spurrier’s depiction of Curze in his last days and stretching across the entire Heresy is the most basic, obvious, overly literal take you could possibly come away with. If you dislike Swallow’s Blood Angels being 40k Blood Angels and missing the point of Ka’Bandha, it’s the same :cuss. If you dislike Ferrus losing his temper in Fulgrim being used to make his entire character based on a lack of self control, it’s the exact same :cuss.

 

Heart of Darkness (unfortunate colonialist themes notwithstanding) is about people being stripped of their civilization and then finding they are unable to, or simply don’t want to, reapply it. That is the tragedy, and that is what the eight was conceived as. Making them all arseholes from day one, thin veneer of honour or otherwise, again misses the point and oversimplifies what was once believable. The Night Lords at first glance seem like the edge lord legion, until you discover their decline into madness. And then you read the Heresy and they return to edge lord status because we find out they were always evil.

 

And if this book was meant to reflect the themes I have described, then Haley did a piss poor job at it. Don’t get me wrong, I think it totally works as an epilogue to the Heresy Night Lords we actually got, but it’s hardly corrective of all its frustrating missteps and misunderstandings of what the legion is all about.

 

Sahaal and Talos are deluded, yes, because they missed the part where the legion stopped being noble. They aren’t deluded because the legion never was.

 

It’s like people’s issues with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. You can replace the thing that people found intriguing, sure. But you need to replace it with something equally interesting if not more so, not Guy Pearce in a suit.

 

And I’m not even going to let myself get started on the idea that this book says anything relevant about mental illness, suffice to say I think that is a very generous interpretation. The best I’ll give it is that the Skraivok’s taking advantage of Curze’s illness is at least somewhat on point.

[Scribe]

To be clear, I don't think there is a commentary on mental illness in the book, only that it's a theme throughout. I can tie behavior, speech patterns, and concepts here to my life with unfortunate ease.

 

My gut reactions line up with what you are saying, but I'm not full read up, so I simply assume this book is doing its best to tie all the representations in the series into a coherent whole.

 

As I mentioned, the Corax scene is the one that redeems the Legion as a concept, because otherwise as you say, there is no fall, you start in darkness and you say there.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Scribe

[Indefragable]

Counter-point*: some men just want to watch the world burn. 

 

The greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing the world he never existed. 

 

The Night Lords were messed up from the beginning. They were a "necessary" tool in the Emperor's arsenal, to be unsheathed against those who most disappointed him. The ones born in the dark who could best do the unsightly deeds in the dark. That was their purpose all along. 

 

...and any guilt or misgivings about the terrible, terrible deeds done by this tool were put aside out of concern that 2 of the 20 tools in the belt were already lost and never coming back. 10% of the Emperor's plan was rendered incapable before it ever really got going. To lose another was too much to bear. Hence Curze and Angron were tolerated perhaps against better judgement. 

 

*

Hidden Content

the above is partially rhetorical, I'm not saying I totally believe it, but it's a thought that is too interesting to pass up.

[SkimaskMohawk]

To be clear, I don't think there is a commentary on mental illness in the book, only that it's a theme throughout. I can tie behavior, speech patterns, and concepts here to my life with unfortunate ease.

 

 

Me too. There's some very, very big red flags.

[Scribe]

Messed up in our current world views, but both Curze and Angron, the most broken of the Primarchs, still operated under the approval of the Emperor.

 

He knew what was going on, and what would be going on, and as we understand from the formation of the 8th and their methods PRE Curze/Nostramo, they were designed that way. Intended for that function, methods be damned.

 

I mean thats one of the interesting points of the book. He laments over and over that he was 'made this way' and in terms of the things he did, and his legion, he is right. The flaw, and what I feel is the source of the contradiction, is that he liked it.

 

That is why he needed, in his mind, to be punished. It was not all just punishment that was inflicted, and he knew it. That is why the original 'teaching a lesson to the Imperium' goes both ways, because he also wants the Night Lords to be punished for their own behaviors.

 

It is in the end by far the most dysfunctional self loathing Legion.

[MegaVolt87]

People still do things they say they don't enjoy, sheer compulsion and repressed enjoyment/stimulation. Then attempt to rationalize said behaviour. When that poor cargo crew found Konrad in his Hannibal container he only had to kill a few to defend himself before they surrendered. He mutilated them instead, played mind games with the last guy. Where is the nobility and nessecity in terrifying a defenceless crewman by doing things like crucifying hundreds of rats, mutilating them and leaving them where they will be easily found? Then when the guy hit a nerve, managing to actually have a relatively normal social intrraction, Konrad just gives him to his captains to torture and they do it for no reason at all. Konrad has no real self control, he says the quiet parts out loud, and very suddenly acts on them. If all primarchs behaved like that, they would all basicly be like Konrad. Also he had moments of lucidity where he treated his sons well and that was enough for many of them to still like and look out for him when it counts, unlike Angorn who hated his legion from day one and most of the legion hated him and wished they had a diffrent primarch/ space dad.

[Scribe]

By the point you are talking about, it's post Terra. The war is over, and he was fully mad.

 

The part about rationalization is precisely the point.

 

Curze wanted to do these things, he rationalizes his behavior, justified it both within his Legion operating procedure, and within himself by way of saying he was made to be this thing he hates.

 

Angron did not hate his legion in the same way at all. Curze hated them because he hated what he was, and what his Legion was by extension.

 

Angron was from a place of resentment, and suicidal desires.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Alright, time to die on this hill.

 

Everyone knows by now that the Night Lords and their primarch are a reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. I won’t claim that codex entries are the best place to find nuance, but Lord of the Night, the seminal Night Lords novel, certainly is.

 

The Horus Heresy’s treatment of Curze and his legion is like filming a prequel to Apocalypse Now where Benjamin and Kurtz act exactly like they do at the end of the film; Kurtz is always sitting in unlit rooms and speaking florid nonsense regardless of the situation, Benjamin is shellshocked by events he hasn’t experienced. You know, something that would not only miss the entire point of their end state, but actively undermine it. Curze, never drawn by Blanche like to many of his peers, was described as being a walking cadaver with long, unkempt hair to show that he had degenerated from something people once respected. You know, like the much-lauded Kurtz at the end of the film/novel. Having Curze look like that from day one is the same bloody thing as Kurtz being portrayed as I described above, it misses the entire point.

 

Taking Spurrier’s depiction of Curze in his last days and stretching across the entire Heresy is the most basic, obvious, overly literal take you could possibly come away with. If you dislike Swallow’s Blood Angels being 40k Blood Angels and missing the point of Ka’Bandha, it’s the same . If you dislike Ferrus losing his temper in Fulgrim being used to make his entire character based on a lack of self control, it’s the exact same .

 

Heart of Darkness (unfortunate colonialist themes notwithstanding) is about people being stripped of their civilization and then finding they are unable to, or simply don’t want to, reapply it. That is the tragedy, and that is what the eight was conceived as. Making them all arseholes from day one, thin veneer of honour or otherwise, again misses the point and oversimplifies what was once believable. The Night Lords at first glance seem like the edge lord legion, until you discover their decline into madness. And then you read the Heresy and they return to edge lord status because we find out they were always evil.

 

And if this book was meant to reflect the themes I have described, then Haley did a piss poor job at it. Don’t get me wrong, I think it totally works as an epilogue to the Heresy Night Lords we actually got, but it’s hardly corrective of all its frustrating missteps and misunderstandings of what the legion is all about.

 

Sahaal and Talos are deluded, yes, because they missed the part where the legion stopped being noble. They aren’t deluded because the legion never was.

 

It’s like people’s issues with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. You can replace the thing that people found intriguing, sure. But you need to replace it with something equally interesting if not more so, not Guy Pearce in a suit.

 

And I’m not even going to let myself get started on the idea that this book says anything relevant about mental illness, suffice to say I think that is a very generous interpretation. The best I’ll give it is that the Skraivok’s taking advantage of Curze’s illness is at least somewhat on point.

 

While I do largely agree with you, I also find it hard to agree with the idea that the Primarch who grew up alone in the seediest of planets in the galaxy, feeding on vermin and cannibalism, and plagued by visions of horrible futures would ever really be truly stable. He always had his moments of slipping. I don't mind him being somewhat broken from the beginning, but what I definitely agree with is what the book really should have shown was a moment of Curze at his best. Something to show what was lost. The darkness was always there, yes, but there was that nobility at one point.

 

EDIT: To expand on this, the book does state at several points that Curze does things that "allow his old nobility to shine through the murk" or some variation of that. Even the Curze novella has it that this stage existed. We're just never shown it directly, it's only hinted at throughout the book in brief glimpses.

 

My preferred progression would essentially be him starting as a feral berserker, slowly becoming more "civilized" as his campaign progresses, reaching a "high point" of 90% nobility, 10% raving insanity when reunited with his Legion and with his tutoring by Fulgrim, and slowly degenerating after that, before reaching a critical junction when Dorn attacks him and he destroys Nostramo. Up until then, there was a chance he'd come back. 

However, there was always that evil side to him. Perhaps, if certain claims made in the novella were true, he'd have been able to shed it with the right training and discussions with the Emperor, but that never happened. Instead, his Night Haunter persona was able to fester and eventually consume him.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[mc warhammer]

Alright, time to die on this hill.

 

Everyone knows by now that the Night Lords and their primarch are a reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. I won’t claim that codex entries are the best place to find nuance, but Lord of the Night, the seminal Night Lords novel, certainly is.

 

The Horus Heresy’s treatment of Curze and his legion is like filming a prequel to Apocalypse Now where Benjamin and Kurtz act exactly like they do at the end of the film; Kurtz is always sitting in unlit rooms and speaking florid nonsense regardless of the situation, Benjamin is shellshocked by events he hasn’t experienced. You know, something that would not only miss the entire point of their end state, but actively undermine it. Curze, never drawn by Blanche like to many of his peers, was described as being a walking cadaver with long, unkempt hair to show that he had degenerated from something people once respected. You know, like the much-lauded Kurtz at the end of the film/novel. Having Curze look like that from day one is the same bloody thing as Kurtz being portrayed as I described above, it misses the entire point.

 

Taking Spurrier’s depiction of Curze in his last days and stretching across the entire Heresy is the most basic, obvious, overly literal take you could possibly come away with. If you dislike Swallow’s Blood Angels being 40k Blood Angels and missing the point of Ka’Bandha, it’s the same . If you dislike Ferrus losing his temper in Fulgrim being used to make his entire character based on a lack of self control, it’s the exact same .

 

Heart of Darkness (unfortunate colonialist themes notwithstanding) is about people being stripped of their civilization and then finding they are unable to, or simply don’t want to, reapply it. That is the tragedy, and that is what the eight was conceived as. Making them all arseholes from day one, thin veneer of honour or otherwise, again misses the point and oversimplifies what was once believable. The Night Lords at first glance seem like the edge lord legion, until you discover their decline into madness. And then you read the Heresy and they return to edge lord status because we find out they were always evil.

 

And if this book was meant to reflect the themes I have described, then Haley did a piss poor job at it. Don’t get me wrong, I think it totally works as an epilogue to the Heresy Night Lords we actually got, but it’s hardly corrective of all its frustrating missteps and misunderstandings of what the legion is all about.

 

Sahaal and Talos are deluded, yes, because they missed the part where the legion stopped being noble. They aren’t deluded because the legion never was.

 

It’s like people’s issues with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. You can replace the thing that people found intriguing, sure. But you need to replace it with something equally interesting if not more so, not Guy Pearce in a suit.

 

And I’m not even going to let myself get started on the idea that this book says anything relevant about mental illness, suffice to say I think that is a very generous interpretation. The best I’ll give it is that the Skraivok’s taking advantage of Curze’s illness is at least somewhat on point.

well put.

 

haley's novel is the only one (that i recall) noting that curze cleaned himself up when he took control of his legion:

 

"The Night Haunter shook his head, sending his unkempt black hair swinging to and fro. There had been a time near the beginning of the war when he adopted higher standards of personal hygiene, as befitted a lord of men. Lately he had returned to his old ways."

 

i honestly don't recall any other bit of fiction, whether IA or adb that depicted konrad during his soap phase.

 

"

Curze gathered his dignity and his wits. Standing from the pile of the dead, he clothed himself in a primarch’s majesty, obliterating memories of the pitiful, cannibal thing he had been a few moments before. We return,’ he said, his voice rich with power, steady as his brother’s had been. Sevatar let out a relieved breath that his father showed them this side of himself.

"

 

the above quote from the primarch book also hints at how curze could appear majestic and respectable, even if we don't really have any fiction that explores that. that being said, i don't think it was the primarch book's responsibility to explore that anyway. keeping with 40k's approach, it's good to remember that it's only one depiction and one that i think is valid. would i like more of soap curze? sure. but i don't know if that makes all the other depictions incorrect.

 

i also wanted to add some old quotes from adb re sahaal and talos. keep in mind i'm only throwing these out here because they're interesting points of discussion, i don't necessarily think word of god is any more valid than reader interpretation (and the 40k canon approach thingy too):

 

"And that's the problem. Sahaal, like Talos, was probably wrong. That's the tragic point of LotN's ending, when the rest of the Legion is laughing at him."

 

and

 

"And here's the problem. None of this is true. It's not in any of the Night Lords' lore, and it's got nothing to do with the established background. Sahaal certainly believes it, but Sahaal is wrong. Talos believes it, too. Talos is also wrong, but conflicted on enough levels to grow increasingly uncertain himself, in his growth and development over the Night Lords Trilogy. But it's not true. That's why Sahaal is a compelling character: because he so adamantly believes this constructed worldview to justify his evils, and it's snatched away from him at the end when it's revealed he was wrong about the Legion and his primarch. That's the whole point.

 

And that's much deeper, and much more interesting to me than exalting Sahaal as the "only guy who really knows the score". He doesn't. He's wrong. The Legion wasn't betrayed by the Emperor, and Curze wasn't schizophrenic in the slightly contrived sense of having two personalities: one loyalist, one Chaos - despite what Acerbus says, it's just never mentioned elsewhere. We, as fans, know it's probably not true.

 

And at no point has it ever been true. It's not even true in Lord of the Night, where you have two incredibly unreliable witnesses arguing the polar opposite things, neither of which exactly match the published lore. The fact is goes against the lore is how we know it's a case of tragic deception, as well as a case of unreliable narration on both sides. People can't argue with a straight face that I disrespected the theory or irrationally hate it; I even made my own main character believe it, too. Again, out of respect for what came before."

[mc warhammer]

 

Alright, time to die on this hill.

 

Everyone knows by now that the Night Lords and their primarch are a reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. I won’t claim that codex entries are the best place to find nuance, but Lord of the Night, the seminal Night Lords novel, certainly is.

 

The Horus Heresy’s treatment of Curze and his legion is like filming a prequel to Apocalypse Now where Benjamin and Kurtz act exactly like they do at the end of the film; Kurtz is always sitting in unlit rooms and speaking florid nonsense regardless of the situation, Benjamin is shellshocked by events he hasn’t experienced. You know, something that would not only miss the entire point of their end state, but actively undermine it. Curze, never drawn by Blanche like to many of his peers, was described as being a walking cadaver with long, unkempt hair to show that he had degenerated from something people once respected. You know, like the much-lauded Kurtz at the end of the film/novel. Having Curze look like that from day one is the same bloody thing as Kurtz being portrayed as I described above, it misses the entire point.

 

Taking Spurrier’s depiction of Curze in his last days and stretching across the entire Heresy is the most basic, obvious, overly literal take you could possibly come away with. If you dislike Swallow’s Blood Angels being 40k Blood Angels and missing the point of Ka’Bandha, it’s the same . If you dislike Ferrus losing his temper in Fulgrim being used to make his entire character based on a lack of self control, it’s the exact same .

 

Heart of Darkness (unfortunate colonialist themes notwithstanding) is about people being stripped of their civilization and then finding they are unable to, or simply don’t want to, reapply it. That is the tragedy, and that is what the eight was conceived as. Making them all arseholes from day one, thin veneer of honour or otherwise, again misses the point and oversimplifies what was once believable. The Night Lords at first glance seem like the edge lord legion, until you discover their decline into madness. And then you read the Heresy and they return to edge lord status because we find out they were always evil.

 

And if this book was meant to reflect the themes I have described, then Haley did a piss poor job at it. Don’t get me wrong, I think it totally works as an epilogue to the Heresy Night Lords we actually got, but it’s hardly corrective of all its frustrating missteps and misunderstandings of what the legion is all about.

 

Sahaal and Talos are deluded, yes, because they missed the part where the legion stopped being noble. They aren’t deluded because the legion never was.

 

It’s like people’s issues with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. You can replace the thing that people found intriguing, sure. But you need to replace it with something equally interesting if not more so, not Guy Pearce in a suit.

 

And I’m not even going to let myself get started on the idea that this book says anything relevant about mental illness, suffice to say I think that is a very generous interpretation. The best I’ll give it is that the Skraivok’s taking advantage of Curze’s illness is at least somewhat on point.

 

While I do largely agree with you, I also find it hard to agree with the idea that the Primarch who grew up alone in the seediest of planets in the galaxy, feeding on vermin and cannibalism, and plagued by visions of horrible futures would ever really be truly stable. He always had his moments of slipping. I don't mind him being somewhat broken from the beginning, but what I definitely agree with is what the book really should have shown was a moment of Curze at his best. Something to show what was lost. The darkness was always there, yes, but there was that nobility at one point.

 

EDIT: To expand on this, the book does state at several points that Curze does things that "allow his old nobility to shine through the murk" or some variation of that. Even the Curze novella has it that this stage existed. We're just never shown it directly, it's only hinted at throughout the book in brief glimpses.

 

My preferred progression would essentially be him starting as a feral berserker, slowly becoming more "civilized" as his campaign progresses, reaching a "high point" of 90% nobility, 10% raving insanity when reunited with his Legion and with his tutoring by Fulgrim, and slowly degenerating after that, before reaching a critical junction when Dorn attacks him and he destroys Nostramo. Up until then, there was a chance he'd come back. 

However, there was always that evil side to him. Perhaps, if certain claims made in the novella were true, he'd have been able to shed it with the right training and discussions with the Emperor, but that never happened. Instead, his Night Haunter persona was able to fester and eventually consume him.

 

if the primarch baby pod landing visions are taken at face value, curze didn't start out particularly cuddly anyway

[byrd9999]

Gav Thorpe - Angels of Caliban (HH #38)

 

I've made a deal with myself to start on the Siege of Terra in the new year, so I won't be left behind when all the excitement of Book 8 comes around, and so I have had to abandon my plan of reading the HH in order at Book 35 because i'm too slow.

 

Between now and January, I want to cover the main plot points so I'll be prepared for Terra, so I'm looking at Praetorian of Dorn, Ruinstorm, Master of Mankind, Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness. I'll read The Crimson King just before I get to The Fury of Magnus. If I manage to catch up with the Siege series next year, I can fill in the gaps with goodies like Path of Heaven.

 

Anyway, continuing the slightly drawn-out Imperium Secundus saga, I got to Angels of Caliban.

 

Scattered thoughts:

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've enjoyed the Dark Angels in the Heresy.

 

Gav does a good job of building the tension between the Triumvirate, and mirroring it with the tension building on Caliban with Luther looking to finally make a move.

 

Sanguinius hasn't had much to do in the whole Secundus arc, other than sit and look broody and uncomfortable, but Guilliman and the Lion are portrayed well.

 

It's a good insight into the Lion, and his revelation towards the end of the book, as he's leaving Macragge to head back to Caliban, is a tantalising and rare glimpse into his self-doubt.

 

Gav's writing here is some of his best that I've read.

 

As befitting his studio background, it's no surprise the battle scenes read like a BatRep from a game he actually played, but thankfully (because I'm not into bolter porn) they are fairly brief.

 

Overall it's pretty solid. 8/10

[Indefragable]

 

Hidden Content

 

Alright, time to die on this hill.

 

Everyone knows by now that the Night Lords and their primarch are a reference to Heart of Darkness / Apocalypse Now. I won’t claim that codex entries are the best place to find nuance, but Lord of the Night, the seminal Night Lords novel, certainly is.

 

The Horus Heresy’s treatment of Curze and his legion is like filming a prequel to Apocalypse Now where Benjamin and Kurtz act exactly like they do at the end of the film; Kurtz is always sitting in unlit rooms and speaking florid nonsense regardless of the situation, Benjamin is shellshocked by events he hasn’t experienced. You know, something that would not only miss the entire point of their end state, but actively undermine it. Curze, never drawn by Blanche like to many of his peers, was described as being a walking cadaver with long, unkempt hair to show that he had degenerated from something people once respected. You know, like the much-lauded Kurtz at the end of the film/novel. Having Curze look like that from day one is the same bloody thing as Kurtz being portrayed as I described above, it misses the entire point.

 

Taking Spurrier’s depiction of Curze in his last days and stretching across the entire Heresy is the most basic, obvious, overly literal take you could possibly come away with. If you dislike Swallow’s Blood Angels being 40k Blood Angels and missing the point of Ka’Bandha, it’s the same . If you dislike Ferrus losing his temper in Fulgrim being used to make his entire character based on a lack of self control, it’s the exact same .

 

Heart of Darkness (unfortunate colonialist themes notwithstanding) is about people being stripped of their civilization and then finding they are unable to, or simply don’t want to, reapply it. That is the tragedy, and that is what the eight was conceived as. Making them all arseholes from day one, thin veneer of honour or otherwise, again misses the point and oversimplifies what was once believable. The Night Lords at first glance seem like the edge lord legion, until you discover their decline into madness. And then you read the Heresy and they return to edge lord status because we find out they were always evil.

 

And if this book was meant to reflect the themes I have described, then Haley did a piss poor job at it. Don’t get me wrong, I think it totally works as an epilogue to the Heresy Night Lords we actually got, but it’s hardly corrective of all its frustrating missteps and misunderstandings of what the legion is all about.

 

Sahaal and Talos are deluded, yes, because they missed the part where the legion stopped being noble. They aren’t deluded because the legion never was.

 

It’s like people’s issues with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. You can replace the thing that people found intriguing, sure. But you need to replace it with something equally interesting if not more so, not Guy Pearce in a suit.

 

And I’m not even going to let myself get started on the idea that this book says anything relevant about mental illness, suffice to say I think that is a very generous interpretation. The best I’ll give it is that the Skraivok’s taking advantage of Curze’s illness is at least somewhat on point.

 

While I do largely agree with you, I also find it hard to agree with the idea that the Primarch who grew up alone in the seediest of planets in the galaxy, feeding on vermin and cannibalism, and plagued by visions of horrible futures would ever really be truly stable. He always had his moments of slipping. I don't mind him being somewhat broken from the beginning, but what I definitely agree with is what the book really should have shown was a moment of Curze at his best. Something to show what was lost. The darkness was always there, yes, but there was that nobility at one point.

 

EDIT: To expand on this, the book does state at several points that Curze does things that "allow his old nobility to shine through the murk" or some variation of that. Even the Curze novella has it that this stage existed. We're just never shown it directly, it's only hinted at throughout the book in brief glimpses.

 

My preferred progression would essentially be him starting as a feral berserker, slowly becoming more "civilized" as his campaign progresses, reaching a "high point" of 90% nobility, 10% raving insanity when reunited with his Legion and with his tutoring by Fulgrim, and slowly degenerating after that, before reaching a critical junction when Dorn attacks him and he destroys Nostramo. Up until then, there was a chance he'd come back. 

However, there was always that evil side to him. Perhaps, if certain claims made in the novella were true, he'd have been able to shed it with the right training and discussions with the Emperor, but that never happened. Instead, his Night Haunter persona was able to fester and eventually consume him.

 

if the primarch baby pod landing visions are taken at face value, curze didn't start out particularly cuddly anyway

 

 

It's interesting to look at how the Primarchs that had to fight for survival the second their pods landed (Lion, Curze, Angron, Ferrus) turn out to be....not the most pleasant...

 

...while those that presumably were found by somewhat caring humans ala Superman turn out as some of the "gooder guys" in the setting (Guilliman, Vulkan, Corax, possibly Sanguinius).

 

Early childhood development is so crucial....as a dad I remind myself of that during every 03:00am diaper change. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Indefragable

[Indefragable]

Gav Thorpe - Angels of Caliban (HH #38)

 

I've made a deal with myself to start on the Siege of Terra in the new year, so I won't be left behind when all the excitement of Book 8 comes around, and so I have had to abandon my plan of reading the HH in order at Book 35 because i'm too slow.

 

Between now and January, I want to cover the main plot points so I'll be prepared for Terra, so I'm looking at Praetorian of Dorn, Ruinstorm, Master of Mankind, Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness. I'll read The Crimson King just before I get to The Fury of Magnus. If I manage to catch up with the Siege series next year, I can fill in the gaps with goodies like Path of Heaven.

 

Anyway, continuing the slightly drawn-out Imperium Secundus saga, I got to Angels of Caliban.

 

Scattered thoughts:

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've enjoyed the Dark Angels in the Heresy.

 

Gav does a good job of building the tension between the Triumvirate, and mirroring it with the tension building on Caliban with Luther looking to finally make a move.

 

Sanguinius hasn't had much to do in the whole Secundus arc, other than sit and look broody and uncomfortable, but Guilliman and the Lion are portrayed well.

 

It's a good insight into the Lion, and his revelation towards the end of the book, as he's leaving Macragge to head back to Caliban, is a tantalising and rare glimpse into his self-doubt.

 

Gav's writing here is some of his best that I've read.

 

As befitting his studio background, it's no surprise the battle scenes read like a BatRep from a game he actually played, but thankfully (because I'm not into bolter porn) they are fairly brief.

 

Overall it's pretty solid. 8/10

 

I agree that the title bout between

Lion + Curze

is well done. It feels like it has some weight and befitting their status (and the tabletop crunch) it is multi-phase, drawn out fight. So many people seem to think that the better fighter should "own" the slightly less adept fighter and win in like 3 blows....when historically most sword fights ended in either both guys killing each other in the first 2 blows or they went on forever with both sides finally sitting down for some water and a smoke break. 

[cheywood]

Between now and January, I want to cover the main plot points so I'll be prepared for Terra, so I'm looking at Praetorian of Dorn, Ruinstorm, Master of Mankind, Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness. I'll read The Crimson King just before I get to The Fury of Magnus. If I manage to catch up with the Siege series next year, I can fill in the gaps with goodies like Path of Heaven.

 

I’m trying to catch up on the Siege as well. Just finished Wolfsbane so I’m a few books ahead. I think your list is just about spot on, but I’d highly recommend Path of Heaven over Ruinstorm (or including both). Path of Heaven, besides being an absolutely fantastic read, touches on much more of the wider conflict than Ruinstorm. The latter isn’t a bad book by any means, but I found it surprisingly inessential.

[Indefragable]

 

Between now and January, I want to cover the main plot points so I'll be prepared for Terra, so I'm looking at Praetorian of Dorn, Ruinstorm, Master of Mankind, Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness. I'll read The Crimson King just before I get to The Fury of Magnus. If I manage to catch up with the Siege series next year, I can fill in the gaps with goodies like Path of Heaven.

I’m trying to catch up on the Siege as well. Just finished Wolfsbane so I’m a few books ahead. I think your list is just about spot on, but I’d highly recommend Path of Heaven over Ruinstorm (or including both). Path of Heaven, besides being an absolutely fantastic read, touches on much more of the wider conflict than Ruinstorm. The latter isn’t a bad book by any means, but I found it surprisingly inessential.

 

 

I flip-flop on how important Ruinstorm is to the wider HH "main" narrative. On one hand it shows how certain forces got to Terra while others did not...and it also sets up the motivations and mentality of a certain key character (hint: his name begins with Sang and ends with -inius) to more directly explain some of his actions during the Siege. On the other hand....it's an ok read and somehow does not feel as weighty as perhaps it ought to. If you don't really care why certain Legions end up where they are for the Siege, I would say it's ok to skip. 

[Scribe]

Yeah I passed on that, the whole arc flopped for me. (Secondus Arc)

[Fedor]

Ruinstorm main contribution was doing good character work for the three primarchs imo. The first book that made Sanguinius an interesting character.

[StrangerOrders]

If we are talking about the things that the Heresy messed up in retrospective, there is one single thing that FW actively made worse.

 

I am more than ready to hear about the Emp having a normal hand.

 

Seriously, I like the idea of each Legion having a designated purpose and the same applying across the Imperium. But it feels like there are way too many times a character goes 'thse guys are all foolish fools of foolery for not realizing that we are the Emps true exterminators! We are the ones that must bare the onerous battles in the shadows of shadowy-ness while everyone else gets the praise! But it is totally fine because we are absolutely loyal/we are rebelling'.

 

-Dark Angels

-World Eaters

-Night Lords

-Alpha Legion

-Ordo Sinister

-Sisters of Silence

-Space Wolves

-Death guard

-Imperial Fists

 

It makes me wonder if any of them are actually special 'left hand' types entrusted with secrets or if the Emp is just really bad at record keeping and just throws around Sinestra titles to make people feel important when he misplaces their victory rolls.

 

Some of that stuff makes sense (mostly chaos stuff because it butts heads with their founding narrative) but FW and BL have become so liberal with it that you are left wondering which battles the Imperium didnt consider a secret extermination. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

Yes, for all the 'oh they work together' and 'editorial oversight' there is a lot of sameness going on...

[bluntblade]

The Imperial Fists are definitely not the exterminators who lack for honour. They're the Legion who've most commonly fought alongside the Emperor.

 

The Alpha Legion are, as far as almost everyone else concerned, just meant to be a Legion of conquest, but they want to be more convoluted than everyone else.

 

Not are the Night Lords, who have a very particular application. Likewise the Ordo Sinister have their own particular field of expertise, and for the rest... Galaxy is a big old place. There's a lot to exterminate.

The Imperial Fists are definitely not the exterminators who lack for honour. They're the Legion who've most commonly fought alongside the Emperor.

 

Not are the Night Lords, who have a very particular application. Likewise the Ordo Sinister have their own particular field of expertise, and for the rest... Galaxy is a big old place. There's a lot to exterminate.

The Imperial Fists are definitely not the exterminators who lack for honour. They're the Legion who've most commonly fought alongside the Emperor.

 

Not are the Night Lords, who have a very particular application. Likewise the Ordo Sinister have their own particular field of expertise, and for the rest... Galaxy is a big old place. There's a lot to exterminate.

Edited September 27, 2020 by bluntblade

[Rob P]

Finally read Dreadwing - the pre-Siege of Terra novella.

 

I really didn't like the writing, which goes a long way to explaining my struggle and multiple attempts to get through it.

 

What I did like:

 

- All the lore bits - essentially the stuff that you'd read reddit for if you're eager to know what happens

- Further insight into the character of the Lion

- Some of the ongoing Caliban intrigue

 

What was ok:

 

- The plot was fine - nothing exciting - the exciting stuff took place before the events of the novel - it was ok - Twist was decent

 

What I didn't like:

 

- The writing - I found it like tar - lots of imaginative description and 40k sounding words, but just a snore off for me - YMMV - would have preferred more on dialogue and character development

- On the writing - Characters that are so opposed I can feel it is contrived - with that tension 'c'mon kiss already' lol - I did like the paragraph interaction between Samariel and Breunor pg62.

- Dramatis personae that feels almost as long as the book despite there only being 3 important characters - Again heavy on characters in a short book made it really hard to follow with multiple name drops and characters to keep track of that have no importance to the story

- Some of the intrigue was confusing

- Farith Redloss is a Spacewolf name (fight me)

 

Overall - go reddit and skip

[Roomsky]

Finally read Dreadwing - the pre-Siege of Terra novella.

 

I really didn't like the writing, which goes a long way to explaining my struggle and multiple attempts to get through it.

 

What I did like:

 

- All the lore bits - essentially the stuff that you'd read reddit for if you're eager to know what happens

- Further insight into the character of the Lion

- Some of the ongoing Caliban intrigue

 

What was ok:

 

- The plot was fine - nothing exciting - the exciting stuff took place before the events of the novel - it was ok - Twist was decent

 

What I didn't like:

 

- The writing - I found it like tar - lots of imaginative description and 40k sounding words, but just a snore off for me - YMMV - would have preferred more on dialogue and character development

- On the writing - Characters that are so opposed I can feel it is contrived - with that tension 'c'mon kiss already' lol - I did like the paragraph interaction between Samariel and Breunor pg62.

- Dramatis personae that feels almost as long as the book despite there only being 3 important characters - Again heavy on characters in a short book made it really hard to follow with multiple name drops and characters to keep track of that have no importance to the story

- Some of the intrigue was confusing

- Farith Redloss is a Spacewolf name (fight me)

 

Overall - go reddit and skip

 

Really? I personally found Dreadwing to be the best long-form Dark Angels work Black Library's put out. Plenty of situational intrigue instead of secrets for their own sake, Redloss and Holguin are far more distinct than they are in Angels of Caliban, and the Lion himself is neither boring nor completely psychotic. The fact I liked it so much is another reason why I was so disappointed in Lord of the First.

 

But I suppose if the writing wasn't your tea that's more than fair. I feel the same way for several other popular entries.

[Scribe]

Just finished PoD, and it was really enjoyable. Very solid. I'll think on it and update a review tomorrow.

 

8/10? Maybe.

[Xisor]

Just finished PoD, and it was really enjoyable. Very solid. I'll think on it and update a review tomorrow.

 

8/10? Maybe.

Pythation of Damnos?

 

Edit: Ooooh, Praetorian of Dorn!!

Edited October 2, 2020 by Xisor