Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[DarkChaplain]

I think the Siege kind of did a disservice to it too. Like, for instance, the origin of the Interrogators. We know that Malcador chose some proto-Inquisitors with his Chosen, but now we also have Dorn's Interrogators, with Sindermann heading them. We know what becomes of Sindermann, so him having Interrogators kind of pre-establishes the structure of the Inquisition for the next ten millennia. It's not something that developed organically. Now it's a tradition instead of an emerging development by the Inquisition.

 

It's heading off 10k years of further potential by rooting this stuff in the final moments of the Heresy. Are we to believe there were no other milestone events that had a big impact on how Imperial institutions reinvented themselves? That they'd enter stasis and had no further ideas of their own between then and now? Heck, we've already seen The Beast Arises paint a different picture of the Imperium, one that believed itself at peace and was woefully underprepared for the wars to come. That already brought forth big changes and new institutions. There is no need to preformulate 40k to this degree.

[darkhorse0607]

5 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

There is no need to preformulate 40k to this degree.

 

I mean only if they haven't laid a roadmap on where to go next. If they're waiting until after the Siege/Heresy is over to start planning the next thing, then I could see why they're trying to connect the two time periods this much. I don't like it much either, but it kind of reeks of "well, I don't know when we'd do this later so let's do it now," which means they haven't actually put any roadmap down on paper for the authors to work with or have started planning anything for the in-between periods (Scouring, Reign of Blood, Badab, etc.) that could be used to set up all of these processes for 40k

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, darkhorse0607 said:

 

I mean only if they haven't laid a roadmap on where to go next. If they're waiting until after the Siege/Heresy is over to start planning the next thing, then I could see why they're trying to connect the two time periods this much. I don't like it much either, but it kind of reeks of "well, I don't know when we'd do this later so let's do it now," which means they haven't actually put any roadmap down on paper for the authors to work with or have started planning anything for the in-between periods (Scouring, Reign of Blood, Badab, etc.) that could be used to set up all of these processes for 40k

 

Wraight wrote one of the great works of 40K fiction, based on a timeline entry in the Ad Mech Codex.

 

The whole 'lets have a meta plot' doesnt seem to ever, ever, work out.

 

They should just go back to setting periods, and stop before they ruin something.

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, darkhorse0607 said:

 

I mean only if they haven't laid a roadmap on where to go next. If they're waiting until after the Siege/Heresy is over to start planning the next thing, then I could see why they're trying to connect the two time periods this much. I don't like it much either, but it kind of reeks of "well, I don't know when we'd do this later so let's do it now," which means they haven't actually put any roadmap down on paper for the authors to work with or have started planning anything for the in-between periods (Scouring, Reign of Blood, Badab, etc.) that could be used to set up all of these processes for 40k

 

The question is: WHY does this need to be detailed out in the first place? We don't actually need an origin story for those things. If there's a good standalone tale to be told about it, sure, go ahead, have a plot about it in a novel. But just having it to tick a box in an already overlength book? Well, why bother?

 

It's hardly so relevant a piece of lore that it should result in a "if not now, when will I have the chance?"-reaction from the author, either.

[darkhorse0607]

3 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

The question is: WHY does this need to be detailed out in the first place? We don't actually need an origin story for those things. If there's a good standalone tale to be told about it, sure, go ahead, have a plot about it in a novel. But just having it to tick a box in an already overlength book? Well, why bother?

 

It's hardly so relevant a piece of lore that it should result in a "if not now, when will I have the chance?"-reaction from the author, either.

 

It doesn't. I might've worded my comment wrong, as I'm not advocating for that, I don't like the new (or rather not new as I'll get to in a second) "everything has to be related to the Heresy" trend that we have gotten, even down to the point where the fact that chapters are reorganizing more like legions bugs me because it doesn't make sense in the way that Space Marines are deployed now compared to legions (specific squad types, i.e. Hellblasters only have plasma, Intercessors just boltguns, instead of the tactical squad, devastator, etc). I'd be perfectly happy if we go back to the days of the setting not being a continual story and just getting one-offs or trilogies about things like the Space Marine Battle series, Infinite and the Divine, Vaults of Terra, Lords of Silence, etc.

 

That being said I don't know why we are surprised about this because it has been going this way for a while in and out of the Heresy

 

Spoilers for Sons of the Selenar, Dawn of Fire 1, Angel Exterminatus/Storm of Iron, Shield of Baal, Pharos, Master of Mankind

Spoiler

How does the Shattered Legions arc resolve? By going after the magic Primaris juice machine and all dying

 

Honsou? The most identifiable Iron Warriors 40k character? Well naturally he needed his origins explained during Angel Exterminatus

 

In Dawn of Fire 1 Guilliman has an Eldar contact, which was Eldrad whom he met during the Heresy. Because of course, he did, plus BL didn't want to lay the groundwork for more Eldar characters or give them any more time/ effort

 

Apparently, Sangiunius met the Necrons during the Great Crusade so Dante could talk with them about slowing down the Tyranids before the invasion of Baal

 

Tyranids came to the galaxy because of the Pharos incident.

 

Drach'nyen in Abbadons sword? It's story starts in the Heresy too

 

Etc

 

Even the fact that for the main story, their biggest hits have been just old characters coming back from the Heresy era to link the two even more (yes, the Silent King has come back, but they couldn't be bothered to make sure that was supported with a novel, you have some Tau stuff but not much there either, and other odds/ends). My other comment was just more saying that at least if they had multiple projects from multiple time points planned out, at least they could reference those all the time instead of everything constantly being from the Heresy like they're currently doing. Because apparently this is Marvel or Star Wars where everything has to be interconnected

[Felix Antipodes]

In my mind each millennium within the 10K years of the Imperium would be written in a different ’voice’, shedding levels of ‘civilisation’, slightly changed culture, etc, before hitting the current 40K level of lost knowledge and superstition.  

I don’t have the same issues as some wrt the current, continuous story style.  My issue is that it is advancing for no real reason other than “It must go forward”.  Sure, advance the story.  Just finish the current plot lines first.

[DarkChaplain]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:07 AM, darkhorse0607 said:

 

It doesn't. I might've worded my comment wrong, as I'm not advocating for that, I don't like the new (or rather not new as I'll get to in a second) "everything has to be related to the Heresy" trend that we have gotten, even down to the point where the fact that chapters are reorganizing more like legions bugs me because it doesn't make sense in the way that Space Marines are deployed now compared to legions (specific squad types, i.e. Hellblasters only have plasma, Intercessors just boltguns, instead of the tactical squad, devastator, etc). I'd be perfectly happy if we go back to the days of the setting not being a continual story and just getting one-offs or trilogies about things like the Space Marine Battle series, Infinite and the Divine, Vaults of Terra, Lords of Silence, etc.

 

That being said I don't know why we are surprised about this because it has been going this way for a while in and out of the Heresy

 

Spoilers for Sons of the Selenar, Dawn of Fire 1, Angel Exterminatus/Storm of Iron, Shield of Baal, Pharos, Master of Mankind

  Hide contents

How does the Shattered Legions arc resolve? By going after the magic Primaris juice machine and all dying

 

Honsou? The most identifiable Iron Warriors 40k character? Well naturally he needed his origins explained during Angel Exterminatus

 

In Dawn of Fire 1 Guilliman has an Eldar contact, which was Eldrad whom he met during the Heresy. Because of course, he did, plus BL didn't want to lay the groundwork for more Eldar characters or give them any more time/ effort

 

Apparently, Sangiunius met the Necrons during the Great Crusade so Dante could talk with them about slowing down the Tyranids before the invasion of Baal

 

Tyranids came to the galaxy because of the Pharos incident.

 

Drach'nyen in Abbadons sword? It's story starts in the Heresy too

 

Etc

 

Even the fact that for the main story, their biggest hits have been just old characters coming back from the Heresy era to link the two even more (yes, the Silent King has come back, but they couldn't be bothered to make sure that was supported with a novel, you have some Tau stuff but not much there either, and other odds/ends). My other comment was just more saying that at least if they had multiple projects from multiple time points planned out, at least they could reference those all the time instead of everything constantly being from the Heresy like they're currently doing. Because apparently this is Marvel or Star Wars where everything has to be interconnected

 

A bunch of these are basically "Author ties one of his books to a previous work" (mainly McNeill feeling the urge to keep the same characters around. Most of the major characters in his Heresy stories are straight up from Storm of Iron or tie into the Ultramarines arc (Remus Ventanus, M'kar). That this is an issue has been heavily debated in the past, and been a red mark against his works for a while, but it's also a very McNeill-specific issue.

 

Spoiler

I don't recall Guilliman and Eldrad ever meeting during the Heresy. Even when Eldrad was involved, it was through his ties to the Cabal. He did more with Grammaticus and Barthusa Narek than with Guilliman, I'd wager. But then, Eldrad first appeared in Fulgrim (which was funnily enough also a McNeill novel), so it's hardly a late addition. He's also been keeping tabs on humanity for a while after, see his short role in The Beast Arises.

Chances are Eldrad isn't going to meet Guilliman until the Scouring, probably to have an epilogue-level chat about the Siege. We might even see it in TEATDv3 at this rate, with how v2 opened with him. However, Eldrad was deeply involved in the whole Ynnari-stuff and relates to how Guilliman was brought back to life from his near-death existence. The two of them also had a Dark Imperium short story about his armor.

 

Drach'nyen being a bound demon is pretty old stuff. All we got was the story of how it was bound, and in an impressively evocative way / by making it matter more as a weapon for Abaddon. That one, too, is a single author tying his works together, as Black Legion 3 should very much be about Abaddon acquiring Drach'nyen.

 

Sanguinius meeting the Silent King was basically an addition because somebody at the studio added a rather contextless part about a Blood Angels x Necron alliance to the BA codex. Laurie Goulding wrote a short story trying to fix that, and at the time the Pharos arc was being sketched. Due to corporate shenanigans, we can probably expect a novel to have been shafted there, but the Pharos was Necron tech, used in ignorance like the Pylons or the Webway (kind of a running theme for humanity). I don't see an issue with this lighthouse being the thing to signal to the Tyranid hivemind that there's prey here, which it sent some scouts to that wouldn't arrive until like 8k years later. It simply makes "extragalactic threat found us randomly" into "extragalactic threat found us because we shouted too loud". This is actually quite a big space civilization theme; Cixin Liu's Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy, book two in particular, makes a good point for not sending messages into space.

 

And the Shattered Legions arc ended with Old Earth and Corax: Weregeld, not Sons of the Selenar. That was McNeill sending off his ragtag Sysypheum crew to wrap them up, and he wanted to give them a legacy. He even forgot a key plot point he set up in the previous Sysypheum novella in the process (which he even outright stated in the afterword. McNeill being McNeill, I suppose). The Iron Hands had a novel canceled as well, which was folded into Old Earth in part.

 

[DukeLeto69]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:07 AM, darkhorse0607 said:

 

It doesn't. I might've worded my comment wrong, as I'm not advocating for that, I don't like the new (or rather not new as I'll get to in a second) "everything has to be related to the Heresy" trend that we have gotten, even down to the point where the fact that chapters are reorganizing more like legions bugs me because it doesn't make sense in the way that Space Marines are deployed now compared to legions (specific squad types, i.e. Hellblasters only have plasma, Intercessors just boltguns, instead of the tactical squad, devastator, etc). I'd be perfectly happy if we go back to the days of the setting not being a continual story and just getting one-offs or trilogies about things like the Space Marine Battle series, Infinite and the Divine, Vaults of Terra, Lords of Silence, etc.

 

That being said I don't know why we are surprised about this because it has been going this way for a while in and out of the Heresy

 

Spoilers for Sons of the Selenar, Dawn of Fire 1, Angel Exterminatus/Storm of Iron, Shield of Baal, Pharos, Master of Mankind

  Hide contents

How does the Shattered Legions arc resolve? By going after the magic Primaris juice machine and all dying

 

Honsou? The most identifiable Iron Warriors 40k character? Well naturally he needed his origins explained during Angel Exterminatus

 

In Dawn of Fire 1 Guilliman has an Eldar contact, which was Eldrad whom he met during the Heresy. Because of course, he did, plus BL didn't want to lay the groundwork for more Eldar characters or give them any more time/ effort

 

Apparently, Sangiunius met the Necrons during the Great Crusade so Dante could talk with them about slowing down the Tyranids before the invasion of Baal

 

Tyranids came to the galaxy because of the Pharos incident.

 

Drach'nyen in Abbadons sword? It's story starts in the Heresy too

 

Etc

 

Even the fact that for the main story, their biggest hits have been just old characters coming back from the Heresy era to link the two even more (yes, the Silent King has come back, but they couldn't be bothered to make sure that was supported with a novel, you have some Tau stuff but not much there either, and other odds/ends). My other comment was just more saying that at least if they had multiple projects from multiple time points planned out, at least they could reference those all the time instead of everything constantly being from the Heresy like they're currently doing. Because apparently this is Marvel or Star Wars where everything has to be interconnected

 

I think SOME stuff being present/initiated during the HH that impacts 40k is logical and can be quite cool. Too much and it starts to become eye-rolling fan (dis)service.

 

Tyranids and Pharos makes sense to me though and Iiked that one (I recall ADB not liking it?)

[DukeLeto69]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:39 AM, Felix Antipodes said:

In my mind each millennium within the 10K years of the Imperium would be written in a different ’voice’, shedding levels of ‘civilisation’, slightly changed culture, etc, before hitting the current 40K level of lost knowledge and superstition.  

I don’t have the same issues as some wrt the current, continuous story style.  My issue is that it is advancing for no real reason other than “It must go forward”.  Sure, advance the story.  Just finish the current plot lines first.

I kinda don’t fully agree. As I have already said, I did want a more distinct “voice/style/setting” between HH v 40k but I would argue that every millennium would be too much. Isn’t the key theme of 40k stagnation? ie pre-HH was a time of discovery and hope that was squandered. IMHO there should be gradually less difference as you move forward in the timeline with maybe the last stylistic change coming around the Age of Apostasy.

 

Might not be explaining that very well? 

 

The HH is connected yet very different to 40k.

 

TBA is an evolution from HH but still different to 40k.

 

Apostasy is more recognisable as early 40k but still some differences (but more like 40k and less like HH era).

 

However, to pull that off they needed to make HH era MORE different to 40k then it ended up.

 

So for example (and my head canon):

 

- No Astronomicon (only happens with Emperor ascending to power it)

- No Astropaths (as they need Astronomicon to direct their “transmissions”)

- Warp jumps are short and slow due to no Astronomicon with Navigators literally having to steer the currents as best they can.

- Interstellar comms is via ship bound Heralds (slow and explains why HH was so confused and thing like Imperium Secundus happened as all in the dark)

 

Now that’s not to say no innovation or invention (or mostly STC discovery actually) for 10k years but the pace would gradually slow and maybe no major new inventions by the time of the Apostasy.

 

That may work as a setting but it of course does not work for GW designing new shiny kits.

Edited November 27, 2023 by DukeLeto69
Typos

[Roomsky]

Baldr's Gate 3 (The Helwinter Gate) - Chris Wraight (Audiobook)

 

Well, it's probably the best one. The style of the writing is better than ever, as you might expect. The resolution to the Fulcrum conspiracy is fantastically 40k, genuinely it's Wraight at top form. The whole book has an excellent understanding of the universe, and were this all a codex entry instead of a novel, it'd be one of my favourite bits of Wolves fluff ever. But as the novel, The Helwinter Gate... hhhh, it's fine, again.

 

No one but Baldr really has an arc anymore. Yngvar and Gunlaugr got on good terms by the end of book 1 and just sat comfortably in that. Yngvar's obsession with the Fulcrum is carried to its conclusion, but I never felt the weight I'd have liked once he's truly vindicated in his beliefs. His rabid hatred of the Eldar is an interesting flare, but it's only an excuse for tension here and would have been more interesting if it was better used in earlier books. Apparently Baldr's psychic awakening is the real emotional core of these books, which is a weird structure because it was a secondary event in Blood of Asaheim. So as it stands the Jarnhammer books go: Yngvar, Baldr, Baldr as their nominal protagonists. I'd have preferred if it were Baldr all the way through, or if the third book focussed more heavily on someone else (maybe Hafloi? He got decent page time here but it didn’t really go anywhere substantial and didn't inform his final battle, I don't think that all being from Ragnar's POV was the right choice at all) A few characters die, though when Jorundur went I didn't exactly feel much. I was a bit sad for Gunlaugr, but of course, he turned out to be fine. By the end I thought the cast was varied acceptably, except for Olgier, who even at book 3 I can only describe as "the other one." Wraight's White Scars these are not.

 

The plotting is also a lot more uneven this time. The first half is pretty great: Jarnhammer gets a solid reintroduction against the backdrop of an imminent 13th Black Crusade, they FINALLY have resolution on the Fulcrum (I cannot stress enough how much I loved it) the fighting is meaningful, we get allusions to Wrath of Magnus, Klave (sp?) is an entertaining worm, and then… it kind of just runs to slop, IMO. The mystery is solved, Klave turns out just to be a convenient POV for exposition before getting disposed of, but oh, we gotta get to Cadia to save Ragnar from a few squads of Guardsmen! I'm so invested right now. Then they arrive, fight some pointless enemies, just happen to come across a dying Eldar who can cure Baldr's psychic illness, then save Ragnar in the nick of time. The back half of this book amounts to conspiracy clean-up duty with an enormously convenient Eldar in the middle to solve the whole reason they went renegade in the last book. The momentum is sapped and our heroes really don't earn their success. 

 

Wraight's prose, while of great quality, is this time missing the special sauce I find consistently in Abnett and ADB: namely, there's often giant bloody blocks of it without proper anchoring to characters. It's not snappy, and reduced to its components is often little more than "Yngvar did this and then the enemy did that and then Yngvar did this…" there's not enough spice. It's not manic and unique like Abnett's, it's not informed by character like ADBs, and it's not informing character like, say, Brooks. It's fighting because a fight felt right for that part of the book. Wraight's not always guilty of this, but it's the herald of me finding his work less than it could be.

 

So… 8 for the first half, 6 for the second, it gets a 7 overall. I recommend this series for:
A - Space Wolves diehards
B - People for whom this will be the only Space Wolves content on their shelves. Much of what I found tiresome about these wouldn't be an issue if I hadn't read other, better Wolves content. It'll make a solid omnibus.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

Echoes of Eternity - ADB

 

I've read this again, to see how it holds after the last year. It holds up more then well. I gave it a 10/10 originally, I didnt want to put it down, and it was as easy a read now, as it was before.

 

I love the book actually. I love (almost) every part of it. There are a few turns of phrase. A few individual word choices, that I could have done without. There are a few sentences, I could have cut out and it would just tighten things up ever so slightly, but all told, this is the pinnacle of the craft.

 

I'll probably read it again over the weekend if I have nothing else to occupy me because it quite literally is just that good.

 

You follow a number of characters across the whole range of the Siege but focused on a Tee, a Skitarii, Land, Primarchs, and Zephon/Amit and Kargos. 

 

This is what you are here for. You are reading the Heresy because its where the Primarchs came out to play. Its where the Siege of Terra is hurtling (or so we believed) to its conclusion.

 

There isnt a ton of time used on Humans. They are there certainly, there are snap shots, there are segments used to illustrate really one of the things I have said over and over on this site, and others in fact, in defense of grimdark settings and fiction.

 

ADB paints a picture through this book of a world that is dead. Its a wonder actually that this Terra exists in 10000 after the Siege. The world is dead, the defenders will die. Its inevitable, we are shown this over and over and over, and yet?

 

What is the point of grimdark fiction? Well one aspect is to show that despite it all being terrible, despite it all going to literal Hell, the human spirit can shout back NO. ADB shows us this on the wall, but even broadcast out to the wider theatre of the planet. Its one of the points of the genre. You dont do the right thing because you are going to win. You do it because it is right to do so.

 

Now, there are some complaints that ADB did not incorporate the 'Siege characters' or 'the meta plot of the Siege' which frankly are garbage complaints.

 

You dont feel that this book could be anywhere but the Siege. You dont feel that the characters (and these are characters, better done than any else in the series by FAR) could be anywhere else but Terra, under Siege, broken down, exhausted, and ready to sell their lives for any reason but defiance, or ruin depending on the side of the coin they are on.

 

So much of it was so good, even the minor failings cannot really bring it down for me, or could be hand waved easily.

 

This is the top of the heap of SoT.

 

Still a 10/10 must read.

[DukeLeto69]

Halfway through Wraight’s SoT novel as part of my intended mammoth back-to-back read of the last three (er I mean five) novels. 

 

Really enjoying it. So far solidifies Wraight’s position (for me) in the top 3-4 authors in the BL stable.

 

One surprise after the kicking some folks gave the Abnett books in relation to the Perpetual plots...there is loads of it in Warhawk which carries on from Mortis.

 

And reading @Scribe review of EoE I can’t wait to get into that!

[Roomsky]

I don't wish for this thread to also fall into the mire of Abnett debate, but part of the kicking, I think, is that Abnett devotes a lot of page space to the Perpetuals in the finale when not a lot actually happens.

 

Warhawk especially I think didn't live up to Wraight's previous Heresy novels, in part because it had to juggle so much. So when I see so little plot movement with Ollanius and Co. In TEATD, all I can think is "why didn't you just do all of it and leave Wraight to his own plot threads?" Abnett certainly had the space for it.

[Scribe]

30 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

And reading @Scribe review of EoE I can’t wait to get into that!

 

You havent read it yet?!

 

I would have dropped some things in spoilers, but considering its age and this threads purpose I felt safe otherwise.

 

You are actively harming youself, by not reading that book. Like your soul suffers, and you dont even know it.

[LemartestheLost]

Galaxy of Horrors Review:

 

 Overall, a pretty solid body of work from all authors involved, in my opinion. Most of the Guard stories were pretty good but nothing groundbreaking (highlight was The Sum of Its Parts by Rhuairidh James).

 

The Chaos stories were to taste as well, with my favorite entry being A More Perfect Union by Rich McCormick. Same protagonist here as in the new EC Renegades: Lord of Excess book that was announced during the BL Reveal Stream. Kick-ass and compelling character to me personally. This has me UBER HYPED for the release date of Rich's book (hopefully sometime in February). It is on my Will Buy list from now on going forward because I have to know just how far this guy will go. To me, this story alone was worth the price of the whole Anthology.

 

Aria Arcana by Peter Fehervari is a Classic as always and a Dark Angels story, The Reward of Loyalty by Tom Chivers, was very good and grimdark as well. Otherwise, not too much else to say. Danie Ware writes good/great Sisters, and Robert Rath writes wonderful Necrons. 

 

Final Score: 8.2/10 -to taste (Buy if you enjoy decent Guard stories and/or are invested in the Renegades series/characters)

Edited December 13, 2023 by LemartestheLost
spelling

[DukeLeto69]

Siege of Terra: Warhawk

 

So I set myself the challenge of reading the last three SoT novels (now last five novels ) back-to-back. With tEatD pt3 due in January, I thought I better start (I am a slow reader).

 

Rubbish at reviews so just some random thoughts:

 

- I really enjoyed Warhawk and it cemented my already held belief that Wraight is solidly in my top four BL authors (with Abnett, ADB, Ferhervari).

- It was a good story that nicely capped off the White Scars arc.

- As a novel it suffered from the need to cover lots of other plots/sub plots across the HH and SoT meaning it jumped around a lot by necessity.

- However, it never dragged and kept my attention.

- To date this is my second favourite SoT novel after Saturnine (knocking Solar War off 2nd spot).

 

How did folks feel about Wraight’s retcon on the Doom of the Deathguard? Doesn’t it undo/change what Swallow did in Buried Dagger? I see authors like Abnett getting a hard time from some Fraters for lore changes. Personally it made sense and I was fine with it. But liking something doesn’t equate to it being ok for some folks right?

 

Right, next read is Echoes of Eternity - side comment, this book has THE best cover in SoT series for me.

[DukeLeto69]

Started EoE and :cuss:...

 

Khârn?????[/quote]

[darkhorse0607]

2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

How did folks feel about Wraight’s retcon on the Doom of the Deathguard? Doesn’t it undo/change what Swallow did in Buried Dagger? I see authors like Abnett getting a hard time from some Fraters for lore changes. Personally it made sense and I was fine with it. But liking something doesn’t equate to it being ok for some folks right?

 

Controversial opinion time (at least for this forum), I liked Swallow's version better.

Spoiler

Wraight's was well written and I guess I can get on board with the whole "let Typhus do this because when Chaos wins we need to be strong enough to endure it/prosper" but for me the more tragic side of the Death Guard/Mortarion (Swallow's version) was that they put all their strength into enduring against Nurgles corruption, the legion that prides itself on being able to endure anything, but in the end that wasn't enough and they were doomed because of it.

 

Mortarion has been shown to care about the legionaries under him and takes time to bond with them (the poison drinking as shown in Flight of the Eisenstein, the Unbroken Blades speech, etc) and so for me, his succumbing to Nurgle at the end of Buried Dagger fit that version of the character a bit more, at least for my interpretation, again I know this isn't the popular one here.

 

I get that the character has been at odds between Wraights and Swallow's depictions throughout the entire series, but looking at them in two separate arcs rather than a back and forth, I tend to like Swallow's better because for me it seems more complete/tragic. He starts with his hatred of all things sorcery, building his band of fighters on Barbarus, building them into a legion before finally being betrayed by a sorcerer (Typhus) and eventually caving to the thing he hates most to save his legion. Versus Wraights "to fight our enemy we must understand/utilize it" and ultimate allowance of corruption of the legion by the thing he once hated most to make them stronger in the coming universe. Neither one is bad per say, Swallow's just resonates with me more. That being said, maybe Wraight's would work better for me if he had more novels with the Death Guard like he did the Scars.

 

That being said the only thing that bugs me about Warhawk is the Khan punching a Leviathan into the air. But that's a minor gripe, overall I liked it

Edited December 10, 2023 by darkhorse0607
spoiler tags

[Roomsky]

The Wraight vs Swallow thing is an execution vs ideas debate, IMO.

 

I like what Swallow was going for quite a lot. The scene where Morty finally gives in to Nurgle was very well handled, as was the general tragedy that Decay Daddy had his hooks in him since day 1. But the Doom itself all hinges on Mortarion being very, very stupid because he an Typhon are "friends." Calas unilaterally had all the fleet's navigators executed and somehow didn't suddenly find himself short a head. 

 

Wraight's I think is better written and keeps Morty from looking quite as dumb - that and I do give him credit for injecting more agency into Mortarion's final descent. All that said, it's not really quite as interesting as Swallow's conceptually, and I don't think Wraight left it as open to interpretation as he should. I guess Morty could still be huffing copium, but IMO that it-was-intentional angle should have been limited to the Remnant's ramblings.

 

I think preferring either is totally fair.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Started EoE and :cuss:...

 

 

  Hide contents

Khârn?????[/quote]

 

Yes, whats the question.

[Urauloth]

4 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

How did folks feel about Wraight’s retcon on the Doom of the Deathguard? Doesn’t it undo/change what Swallow did in Buried Dagger?

No, because there's no such book.

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes, whats the question.

 

I am assuming...

 

ADB is playing with time, ie flash back flash forward, as I thought Khârn was dead in Warhawk. Need to read more but clearly the Warp did it as I believe Khârn is “alive and kicking” in 40k anyway so...?

 

To me that is one of THE major flaws in the HH series. Too much focus on characters we know are still around in 40k. It removes dramatic tension and threat. That’s why Loken was, originally a great character.

[Scribe]

58 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

To me that is one of THE major flaws in the HH series. Too much focus on characters we know are still around in 40k. It removes dramatic tension and threat. That’s why Loken was, originally a great character.

 

Old old old lore was,

 

"Khârn died at the Wall, but for some reason his body was taken from battle, and he got better."

 

This is part of that existing story arc, just fluffed out by the novels.

 

I do agree though, that the constant linking between 30K and 40K is way too much now, and this is why the fall of for example Argel Tal, was so delicious when it happened.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@DukeLeto69 Khârn kinda has the Lucius treatment in the sense that he's brought back to life multiple times (and we see how post-siege in Anthony Reynolds novel). The thing is, him dying in Warhawk isn't really supposed to be his moment at all; it's all about Sigismund.

 

All I'll say about echoes is RAF. Kharns appearance isn't contrived or retconned or anything. 

 

 

[Fedor]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:24 PM, DukeLeto69 said:

Siege of Terra: Warhawk

 

So I set myself the challenge of reading the last three SoT novels (now last five novels ) back-to-back. With tEatD pt3 due in January, I thought I better start (I am a slow reader).

 

Rubbish at reviews so just some random thoughts:

 

- I really enjoyed Warhawk and it cemented my already held belief that Wraight is solidly in my top four BL authors (with Abnett, ADB, Ferhervari).

- It was a good story that nicely capped off the White Scars arc.

- As a novel it suffered from the need to cover lots of other plots/sub plots across the HH and SoT meaning it jumped around a lot by necessity.

- However, it never dragged and kept my attention.

- To date this is my second favourite SoT novel after Saturnine (knocking Solar War off 2nd spot).

 

How did folks feel about Wraight’s retcon on the Doom of the Deathguard? Doesn’t it undo/change what Swallow did in Buried Dagger? I see authors like Abnett getting a hard time from some Fraters for lore changes. Personally it made sense and I was fine with it. But liking something doesn’t equate to it being ok for some folks right?

 

Right, next read is Echoes of Eternity - side comment, this book has THE best cover in SoT series for me.

 

I thought his idea of Mortarion orchestrating a great deal of it himself was nonsense, and thematically butchers the older background for the inferior alternative of another "GIVE ME THE POWER" re-run. However, the way it was presented means you can take it as truth or discard it as daemonic shenanigans/self-delusion from Mort. In that sense i ended up not minding its inclusion.

 

Swallow's Buried Dagger was a disappointing book in terms of its depiction of the becalming (and Barbarus as well tbf), but it stayed faithful to the broad idea behind the original background and had superior themes of impotency and inevitability tying Nurgle into Mortarion's upbringing on Barbarus. The ending where submitting to the Emperor is superimposed with giving in to Nurgle was better than anything in Warhawk. Ultimately i don't think the Mortarion/DG arc was done justice within the series.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Fedor