Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[wecanhaveallthree]

 

 

 It may be technically brilliant but it made the read unenjoyable.

 

This is definitely a matter of taste, but I think just about everyone here has had at least a brush with 'hard' sci-fi - Baxter, say, or Niven, or something similar - where a lot of the fun is in the systems. The details. I'll call out Wraight for this because it's a big part of what makes him so interesting to read. There are endless comments about how fun his random tangents are, like when he just rambles on about the logistics of parchment on Terra for some stupid reason. But it's comfy. People like comfy. It's like... when you're in a conversation with a friend, and they're talking about something they really, really like or are interested in, and their sheer enthusiasm (and a reasonably interesting subject) makes it time well spent even if it doesn't really go anywhere.

 

I want to pop in a little bit from Seth Dickinson's The Monster Baru Cormorant here (go read everything he's written, right now, because he's great).

 

 Why do people do the things they do? If there are reasons for their acts, reasons like threads which trail back into the snarled silk of a life, how can we deduce those reasons from the acts?
 Begin with a hashing function.
 A hashing function is a one - way equation. How can there be such a thing? If two and two make four, then four is made of two and two, isn’t it?
 No. Given only the number four you do not know if it was made from two and two, or three and one, or four and nothing. You cannot easily go in reverse.

...

Baru thought: What I see of other people is the output of a hashing function.
 I’ll never know anyone’s true self, will I? Their thoughts and memories, the selfness of someone, the me - ness of me: that’s like a true name, a person in all their formless awesome grandeur. But we do not see that grandeur. We see each other only in the shapes we are forced to assume. Words constrain us, and also our laws, and our fears and hopes, and the wind, and the rain, and the dog that barks while we’re trying to speak, all these things constrain us.
 We all force our true selves into little hashes and show them like passwords. A smile is a hashing function, and a word, and a cry. The cry is not the grief, the word is not the meaning, the smile is not the joy: we cannot run the hash in reverse, we cannot get from the sign to the absolute truth. Maybe the smile is false. Maybe the grief is a lie.
 But we can compare the hash to a list, and guess at the meaning.

 

I am not an accountant. I actually dropped math as soon as I was able for more classes about YELLING ON THE INTERNET. I don't know anything about hashes, or cartouches, or passwords. But the author does. And the character, Baru, is an accountant, so this insight into her thought process - delivered via some very modern phrasing for a fantasy novel, I wot - resonates with me. It's abstract. It's artsy. But it resonates with me: I can feel it, feel it showing me something, telling me something. I understand a dimension of the character better because of this language. Obviously from context clues we get that Baru is, frequently, not great at dealing with people. That's 'good enough'. But this flowery writing, this technical insight, truly deepens the experience. It is art combined with function. It is a complex subject matter as a metaphor. It is both technical and enjoyable.

 

Abnett, for the most part, feels like he's just puffing his chest out. He uses epic language because, he says, this story is an epic. It should be read as such. It's a mythic retelling, so it requires mythic language. But it doesn't wax and wane. It doesn't just 'turn on' when appropriate, or trying to tell me something. It's just purple prose for the sake of it, rather than enhancing the story. It is technical and it detracts from the work.

[Roomsky]

I'm a sucker for ambitious prose and I actually find it to be one of the book's strong suits IN A VACCUUM. In the context of the series at large, it was 100% not the time or place for such a shift. If Abnett had indeed been handed the whole Siege... sure. As the finale to a finale that doesn't match it in presentation (including, I might add, another book by Abnett) it definitely strays into a flex nobody asked for.

Edited September 17 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

I mean props for reading it again. Its absolutely in the dumpster for me @Roomsky and unlike a lot of other works and authors, that one is just getting WORSE for me. I'll probably flip out over it in a decade, randomly.

[Roomsky]

Okay so attempting to keep an open mind and not work myself into an annoyed fit over a book I do think is good and enjoy - I've come around a bit on everything being from Malcador's POV on the throne. The clocks have stopped, space is warped and time is bendable, chapters from his perspective preceeding him sitting on the throne are fine by me. He refer to Horus as "you" repeatedly in one of his first-person chapters, so I suppose it's not so inconsistent as I first thought. It's another totally unneeded flex, but once again it's kind of neat as well.

 

Fo, as is his habit in this book, undermines the quality of this device by interjecting with his own first-person observations, though. I know Abnett's other work gets centre stage here, but even by that metric Fo is a baffling plot tumor. He was in a single short story before the Siege! Abnett gives him more love and care than Aximand!

Edited September 19 by Roomsky

[wecanhaveallthree]

>Fo is a baffling plot tumor. 

 

Fo is the ultimate Abnettism. He is the head of the pimple. I hate Fo. He's the evolution of the Cabal, Grammaticus, Oll - he's a character that does not belong. His initial appearance served one and only one function: Fo is from a Different Time. He has Different Sensibilities. He is Fun and Quippy and he Knows Things. He exists to say to Horus (and the reader) that if you didn't remember that the Emperor had a shady past and that Unification (and pre-Unity) was a bad time, here's your refresher. OK. Goodbye, Fo.

 

But somehow, Basilio Fo returned. To continue to stand outside the narrative and say quippy things and make smart comments and insinuate things and just be insufferably smug and smart in general. This is not inherently bad. There are characters whose self-confidence is enormously enjoyable (as is their inevitable comeuppance - half the fun of Bile is having the man go NUH UH I DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS I AM THE SMARTEST DUDE ALL OFF MY OWN BACK while Slaanesh just rolls her eyes at him). But we are - just like with the Cabal, with Grammaticus, with Oll - constantly reminded that Fo Is Important. He has a Secret Weapon that will Change Things. We spend more and more time with him, and he becomes more and more insufferable because everything just goes his way, all the time, because everyone becomes an idiot around that sociopathic genius, Basilio Fo. He's so smart. He's so good at manipulating people. And he wins, of course! How could he not win? And he doesn't just win in the sense that he escapes, or that his weapon is unleashed, or his plot succeeds - he becomes a founding member of the Inquisition. Abnett grafts a character he dreamed up for a short story into the fundamental construction of the Imperium. In fact, he gets two, because he snuck another of his Long Companions in there at the end. And we're not even counting Sindermann here (he was there the day the Emperor slew Horus, dontchaknow) or Keeler (aieeeeeeee). 

 

Abnett's characters must all be Important and Different. Look no further than Erda cropping up without even a hint of her existence prior to be the most unsatisfying answer to 'who scattered the Primarchs' possible. 'Dude, actually, there was actually another super-powerful Perpetual who, like, helped the Emperor make the Primarchs because he was too dumb to do it himself, and like, she has awesome nature powers never seen before, and she can take on the best greater daemons because she's so strong, and...'

 

I HATE IT.

 

>Aximand

 

Aximand is, I think, the character done dirtiest through the entire series and his random unceremonious death along with everyone else who might get in Abaddon's spotlight in Saturnine still infuriates me.

 

Though not as much as Abaddon's lander turning back to Luna Wolves colours at the end. Piss off, Abnett. 

[Roomsky]

 

somehow, Basilio Fo returned. 

 

Actually cackling right now.

[Scribe]

 

>Fo is a baffling plot tumor. 

 

Fo is the ultimate Abnettism. He is the head of the pimple. I hate Fo. He's the evolution of the Cabal, Grammaticus, Oll - he's a character that does not belong. His initial appearance served one and only one function: Fo is from a Different Time. He has Different Sensibilities. He is Fun and Quippy and he Knows Things. He exists to say to Horus (and the reader) that if you didn't remember that the Emperor had a shady past and that Unification (and pre-Unity) was a bad time, here's your refresher. OK. Goodbye, Fo.

 

But somehow, Basilio Fo returned. To continue to stand outside the narrative and say quippy things and make smart comments and insinuate things and just be insufferably smug and smart in general. This is not inherently bad. There are characters whose self-confidence is enormously enjoyable (as is their inevitable comeuppance - half the fun of Bile is having the man go NUH UH I DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS I AM THE SMARTEST DUDE ALL OFF MY OWN BACK while Slaanesh just rolls her eyes at him). But we are - just like with the Cabal, with Grammaticus, with Oll - constantly reminded that Fo Is Important. He has a Secret Weapon that will Change Things. We spend more and more time with him, and he becomes more and more insufferable because everything just goes his way, all the time, because everyone becomes an idiot around that sociopathic genius, Basilio Fo. He's so smart. He's so good at manipulating people. And he wins, of course! How could he not win? And he doesn't just win in the sense that he escapes, or that his weapon is unleashed, or his plot succeeds - he becomes a founding member of the Inquisition. Abnett grafts a character he dreamed up for a short story into the fundamental construction of the Imperium. In fact, he gets two, because he snuck another of his Long Companions in there at the end. And we're not even counting Sindermann here (he was there the day the Emperor slew Horus, dontchaknow) or Keeler (aieeeeeeee). 

 

Abnett's characters must all be Important and Different. Look no further than Erda cropping up without even a hint of her existence prior to be the most unsatisfying answer to 'who scattered the Primarchs' possible. 'Dude, actually, there was actually another super-powerful Perpetual who, like, helped the Emperor make the Primarchs because he was too dumb to do it himself, and like, she has awesome nature powers never seen before, and she can take on the best greater daemons because she's so strong, and...'

 

I HATE IT.

 

>Aximand

 

Aximand is, I think, the character done dirtiest through the entire series and his random unceremonious death along with everyone else who might get in Abaddon's spotlight in Saturnine still infuriates me.

 

Though not as much as Abaddon's lander turning back to Luna Wolves colours at the end. Piss off, Abnett. 

 

And CUT. Wrap it up. Go to Print. This is the one.

[Rob P]

Flesh and Steel

 

4/5

 

Felt like an episodic detective / buddy cop series that has plenty of stories to tell.

 

40k tells much more bearable stories when an obligatory big battle scene is absent.

 

I felt the characterisations were good and the back stories aided the plot.

 

The overall framing creates suitable intrigue. E.g.What happens to characters x and y after this book?

 

Minor quibbles. The characters seem to know too much of the wider imperium. The main character knows who the primarchs were and how many. And tiny quibble on consistency,: another character corrects the main character for calling servitors cyborgs and then does the same in a chapter or 2 later

 

Overall good. Gave me a better impression of what Guy Haley can do than the standard 40k novels.

Edited September 21 by Rob P

[DukeLeto69]

 

Flesh and Steel

 

4/5

 

Felt like an episodic detective / buddy cop series that has plenty of stories to tell.

 

40k tells much more bearable stories when an obligatory big battle scene is absent.

 

I felt the characterisations were good and the back stories aided the plot.

 

The overall framing creates suitable intrigue. E.g.What happens to characters x and y after this book?

 

Minor quibbles. The characters seem to know too much of the wider imperium. The main character knows who the primarchs were and how many. And tiny quibble on consistency,: another character corrects the main character for calling servitors cyborgs and then does the same in a chapter or 2 later

 

Overall good. Gave me a better impression of what Guy Haley can do than the standard 40k novels.

Loved it. For ME this is Haley’s best book. Such a shame it appears WH Crime might be dead! So much potential. This book was crying out for a sequel!

[aa.logan]

I’ve just finished reading The End and The Death.

 

I’ve just finished reading the Horus Heresy.

 

 

I quite liked it.

 

7/10

[grailkeeper]

I'm reading Josh Reynolds Apocalypse on the basis of reviews here. It's ok. I might enjoy it more if it hadn't been spoilt years ago.

 

If the rumours I've seen online are true it might be the first book that takes longer to read than it took to write.

[byrd9999]

I'm struggling with the audiobook of Apocalypse. I love the start, but the moustache-twirling bad guys spoil it and I can't get past it.

 

It took 4 weeks to write (allegedly), but iirc Josh Reynolds cannibalised a previous unpublished novel, so (iirc), it wasn't written in 4 weeks de novo.

[darkhorse0607]

 

I'm struggling with the audiobook of Apocalypse. I love the start, but the moustache-twirling bad guys spoil it and I can't get past it

 

 

Honestly same. And I haven't had this hard of a time delineating character voices before. I love Richard Reed but come on man, either slow down or make them sound different

[LemartestheLost]

 

I'm struggling with the audiobook of Apocalypse. I love the start, but the moustache-twirling bad guys spoil it and I can't get past it.

 

 

Those doctrinally opposed Word Bearers are the exact pair I think of when folks say "moustache-twirling villains" in relation to 40k, it's actually iconic imho

Edited September 30 by LemartestheLost
syntax

[byrd9999]

ADB, The Night Lords Trilogy.

 

Just finished the anthology with 3 novels and 3 short stories.

 

Fantastic stuff. Great characters, fun plots, great insight and feel of 40k.

 

I can see why it is rated so highly.

 

When are we going to get some more ADB? Ever?

 

10/10.

[DukeLeto69]

 

ADB, The Night Lords Trilogy.

 

Just finished the anthology with 3 novels and 3 short stories.

 

Fantastic stuff. Great characters, fun plots, great insight and feel of 40k.

 

I can see why it is rated so highly.

 

When are we going to get some more ADB? Ever?

 

10/10.

Years since I read these but seem to recall that book 1 and 2 were awesome but book 3 was very good but not as good.

[Roomsky]

So, as an experiment, I continued my End and the Death re-read uninterrupted until the portion of volume 2 where Loken fights Samus and Sanguinius finishes his chat with Ferrus. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this felt like a much better cut-off point for the first entry than Loken appearing on the Vengeful Spirit, not least because it bookends Samus' monologue.

 

Ending there means we actually get to see the breaking-down of reality in the palace, and Ollanius and co. are travelling again instead of heading back to a cell. Agathe's z-plot identifies they're squatting in a displaced Blackstone instead of some house, Sigismund is united with Keeler, and we're teased that Dorn is just one busted-down wall away from freedom. The bookends with Samus gives us the Ahriman cliffhanger, and gives an actual purpose for why Mauer, Sindermann and Spoiler are rifling through books for so many chapters. Also, surprise Erebus. So much seemingly aimless :cuss: actually goes somewhere if you cut it off here instead.

 

"But Roomsky," you say "how could we have gotten there in one book's worth of pages?"

 

Well, I've got a few ideas-

 

"And you can't just excise any of the overambitious elements Abnett was going for."

 

Feh. Well, I've still got some ideas.

 

1. The book is already blueballing us. So commit to the bit. Shorten the Emperor et al. on the Vengeful Spirit chapters and thereby delay actually seeing them again after they teleport. The characters in the book don't know where they went, play into it! Have no confirmation of where they ended up for a section.
2. Further to the above, tempt Dorn with an empty, endless passage of the Spirit that will lead him to Horus in time if he submits to Khorne. This would re-energize a neat concept that ultimately ended up feeling arbitrarily long (if Dorn is on the spirit, it's tragedy because his will won't let him break before Horus dies, so we need minimal pagetime and it gives him something to break him even further after the Emperor is enthroned. With the desert, Dorn thinks the war is over and we don't actually know what will happen when he escapes. This means his time there isn't "until Chaos flees," it's "until Abnett feels like letting him out.")
3. If Rogal can appear directly in his underworld journey, have Sanguinius do the same and arrive alone in the hell room with Ferrus immediately. This has him doing fewer feats of peerless athleticism with a terminal wound in his flank, somehow.
4. Instead of micro-chapters, just make more "Fragments" chapters with the same content. It's the same wordcount in fewer pages. If he's truly committed to the "the narrative breaks down as Malcador's psyche does" bit, stylize them like Mal's fragmentary first-person POV chapters.
5. Have Andromeda convince the Custodes to transfer custody of Fo to her and Xanthus. Fo then escapes from them, and we get the suspenseful concept of "where is Fo and what is he doing?" instead of the boring "Fo endlessly yaps about his own intelligence." Would give us a bit more time with Andromeda (better character) and Xanthus (so we can feel kind of sad he dies) instead.

 

And while it wouldn't save a ton of pages, I'd like to point out my real biggest bugbear this time through. It's not just the wrist-aching size of these books. It's not that Fo consumes too much pagetime. It's not all the mischaracterization of established characters. It's not the editors never saying "no" to Abnett's eleventh-hour stylistic shenanigans.

 

It's Maximus Thane.

 

Thane adds literally nothing but pagecount. He experiences nothing other characters don't experience. His personality is no different than Abnett's Rann. His very presence is a retcon that contradicts The Beast Arises. This is not Abnett masturbating his own characters, because Thane isn't one of those. This is not Abnett's ambition getting the better of him, because he adds no meaningful complexity to the narrative, and his chapters don't give Abnett time to flex his prose. I can put myself in a headspace that enjoys every element, every shot and miss, in these books - but not Thane.

 

Thinking on it, I might whip up a "Roomsky unfairly plans the Siege with hindsight" post at some point. 

 

Anyway, much as these posts are devoted to my whinging, I am overall enjoying the re-read. The pomposity of the prose and the slow pace actually work for me when I know what I'm getting in to. Another reason why releasing it in 3 parts months apart was an awful idea.

Edited October 2 by Roomsky

[DarkChaplain]

I so wish Dan had at least killed off Thane and made his name a legacy like Archamus's, that might have fixed the problem. Also, did Abnett even remember that HE set up the concept of "Wall Names" in TBA: I Am Slaughter? THIS would've been the spot to introduce that concept, if not already in Saturnine. Instead, it's just another incongruity.

[Roomsky]

 

I so wish Dan had at least killed off Thane and made his name a legacy like Archamus's, that might have fixed the problem. Also, did Abnett even remember that HE set up the concept of "Wall Names" in TBA: I Am Slaughter? THIS would've been the spot to introduce that concept, if not already in Saturnine. Instead, it's just another incongruity.

Also this, 100%!

 

I know Abnett would really like to write a book set in the Heresy's immediate aftermath, but come on, man had 4 books and couldn't find the page space? Nary even a wink to the wall names. I didn't need to see Koorland in person (though at this point I would have preferred it to Thane,) but even a minor nod would have been appreciated. Because, like, they're clearly not trying to just sweep TBA under the rug, Samus Thane is here!

[wecanhaveallthree]

>Sanguinius finishes his chat with Ferrus

 

Have we all now agreed that the Dead Primarch Waiting Room was totally an awesome trick by Horus, or do we still need to mud-wrestle over it? 

 

Also, one of the dumbest things ever? Oooo, come into my spooooky parlour, listen to these rattlin' chains while I tells ya I'm tooootally the ghost of your dead brother! OoOOOOoOOOoOOoo! Barf.

[Roomsky]

 

>Sanguinius finishes his chat with Ferrus

 

Have we all now agreed that the Dead Primarch Waiting Room was totally an awesome trick by Horus, or do we still need to mud-wrestle over it? 

 

Also, one of the dumbest things ever? Oooo, come into my spooooky parlour, listen to these rattlin' chains while I tells ya I'm tooootally the ghost of your dead brother! OoOOOOoOOOoOOoo! Barf.

 

I'll be honest, I don't actually know why it happened in-universe.

 

But a calm chat with Ferrus Manus? The damned souls of "ascended" primarchs writhing in the dark? Sangy doing something other than the most impressive feats of his career while literally bleeding out? I'm here for it. Though it could certainly do with being more concise, like most conversations in the novel(s.)

[Nagashsnee]

Fixing the end and the death is very very very easy. You tell the author he has to stick to one book as the company planned and very publicly stated the series length, but since he has all this ideas and energy you put out a anthology of almost (some of the stuff is just not needed even here)  EVERYTHING that is just not tied to the main siege narrative. 

 

So you have a book about the END and the DEATH. And then a anthology on the adventures of 'i am the bestest smartest guy ever!' fo, some POV of time craziness, some proto inquisition, some proto church, a cool survival horror story about the black rage, etc etc.  And if the author is still not happy you take all the stuff that can easily be covered outside the siege or the HH (proto inquistion, proto church and whatever else) and offer him a whole separate book.  After all if its truly good stuff and has merit it will sell just fine on its own, and will surely not need the last dregs of goodwill towards the HH/BL by cuffing it to the end of the siege of terra sub series. Not like you are afraid that a significant % of the HH will likely not buy another non scouring BL book ever again and are only finishing this series because they have been here for so long they kinda feel they have to. 

 

And this is something i feel they could have done more of earlier, 1-3 anthologies of the stages of the war covering fun ideas and C stories. From The doomed defence of the Solar Realm (they invaded Sol an we did not get any SOLAR auxilia...come on BL), to the battles on terra not centered at the palace, to trying up some loose minor stories.  Have all of it enhance the actual siege books but none of them be required to the story.   

 

Heck i once had a fever dream that they took a nice little short story about some people on a train traveling to the siege with a fun but obvious fake out twist at the end and had it take up 1/3 of a main siege of terra book. I mean can you imagine? Or pretty much skipping the entire solar war for nothing more then the set up to a Samus cameo.  Throwing in a Dark Angel Fallen plotline of all things into the siege of terra.  But fevers are like that, you drift in and out of conscious thought and look over at the clock and can swear that it has not moved a inch and that time has stopped, only to suddenly know that this is the 569th time you thought this, and as you feel the cold cold sweat trickle down your back are certain that you will go thru this loop a couple more hundred times before you can be truly, 100%, for reals, ultimately and forever certain that the clocks have stopped and drift back to oblivion hopping to just finally get to the end before you have dream up another Fo monologue.

[darkhorse0607]

 

Heck i once had a fever dream that they took a nice little short story about some people on a train traveling to the siege with a fun but obvious fake out twist at the end and had it take up 1/3 of a main siege of terra book

 

 

I once again ask people to stop acknowledging this book so I do not have to re-accept that the only book that the Iron Warriors, you know, the legion who was the only ones doing what they were supposed to, feature heavily in, had to share their book with a train subplot that honestly felt like had more pages than they did

 

Of course,  Thorpe mangled all of the characterization that McNeill and French did for them so maybe the fact that they got overshadowed by a train is a good thing

Edited October 3 by darkhorse0607

[DarkChaplain]

And I'm sitting over here, actually really having enjoyed subplot of conscripts getting trained in and the subterfuge that went along with it...

[The Scorpion]

 

And I'm sitting over here, actually really having enjoyed subplot of conscripts getting trained in and the subterfuge that went along with it...

I thought I was the only one. True, it adds nothing to the wider siege.

 

BUT... in 40k, the personal is as important as the mythic.

 

The tale of the train is about the war effort, about proto-comissars, about the Imperium not trusting its lowliest servants and humans not trusting the Imperium. The Adabba Free Korps know nothing of Chaos or Horus, only of the Emperor's tyranny.

 

"It only adds to a gotcha from Perturabo to Dorn". In the mythos, yes. But it still means that it was a fistful of human regiments that tipped the scales in the fall of the Lion's Gate spaceport.

 

How many more needless betrayals must've happened because of the way the Imperium of Man treats humanity? The Heresy was decided by a Phyrric Victory: a victory the narrowest of margins. A victory that it never truly recovered from.

 

How much better would the Imperium be today if only the Great Crusade had been a little more tolerant? A little less tyrannical?