Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[lansalt]

 

the Dead Primarch Waiting Room

Bad filler that not only added contradictory nonsense about the primarchs' souls for the sake of an unecessary cameo, it also deflated the tension of Sanguinius meeting Horus.

[Roomsky]

 

Bad filler that not only added contradictory nonsense about the primarchs' souls for the sake of an unecessary cameo, it also deflated the tension of Sanguinius meeting Horus.

 

Would love to hear expanded thoughts on this!

 

Re: The First Wall - IMO, Zenobi was the only good part of that book. But being the cutaway from "important" stuff was always going to irritate people, especially right after a book with another boots-on-the-ground guards POV in the mythic finale to space marine series. That the dedicated Fists and Iron Warriors book gives such a poor showing to both legions taints it by association as well (Perturabo's most explicit victory in the Siege is him sending his dumbest commander so Dorn overthinks himself into a loss.) YMMV on the Keeler plot, but I hate ethereal saintly Keeler so that wasn't much better.

[darkhorse0607]

 

 

Would love to hear expanded thoughts on this!

 

Re: The First Wall - IMO, Zenobi was the only good part of that book. But being the cutaway from "important" stuff was always going to irritate people, especially right after a book with another boots-on-the-ground guards POV in the mythic finale to space marine series. That the dedicated Fists and Iron Warriors book gives such a poor showing to both legions taints it by association as well (Perturabo's most explicit victory in the Siege is him sending his dumbest commander so Dorn overthinks himself into a loss.) YMMV on the Keeler plot, but I hate ethereal saintly Keeler so that wasn't much better.

I agree,  but the fact that it really didn't have an impact to the story really adds salt imo

 

Those regiments were never going to hold the spaceport. Once the Iron Blood docked the battle was over. Unless I missed somewhere that they had a special anti ship torpedo or something, the units might have bought a smidge of time but that's it, probably not even that given what was coming through the spaceport (Abbadon and friends, Khârn and friends, Perturabo, etc). They were a speedbump at best

 

Dorn is told at the beginning that units are having issues. After the reveal he basically shrugs his shoulders before doing that he was going to anyway by going to the spaceport

 

But as you say, both legions didn't get a good showing so maybe it's a good thing. Zenobis story was fine I suppose, but it falls into the same group as the rest of the stuff they added last minute for me

[DarkChaplain]

I find it slightly ironic that for half the series, there was a very vocal part of the community who wanted more non-Space Marine stories being told, more focus on the boots on the ground, and then when it took up a bit of room in the Siege, it wasn't wanted anymore.

 

For the record, I loved the train sidetracking in large part because it was about "irrelevant" no-name characters with no future. They didn't matter in the grand scheme. They were never going to be the deciding factor. They were just cogs in the war machine. They were used and abused by the Emperor's and Dorn's mobilization system - and that caused them to turn in favor of empty promises and vengeance.

 

They were a genuine irrelevancy in terms of big 40k legacies. But that's why they were important, in my opinion. Let's just look at all the other human characters in the Siege - they all turned out to be either special snowflakes of mythical importance, like Keeler, Sindermann, Fo, Kat, John, Oll, Land, held big military roles like Su-Kassen and so forth. They were all vital in one way or another, and/or survived the Siege. Even Mersadie Oliton got her big return as a host for bloody Samus.

 

We were supposed to have a ground-level view through Katsuhiro, but... he was literally abandoned for half the series and had absolutely NO payoff during the End and the Death, and barely speaks half a dozen lines in the entire 3-volume tome. He was set up to carry a baby for a Space Marine who had a fake-out death previously, and then just tagged along with sodding Keeler for the remainder of the Siege. Wonderful, completely wasted character, for all the potential he was set up with.

 

We didn't even get a proper traitor fleet character, those lost and the damned were all said to be around, but we never actually got that PoV, not really. Closest we got to the pirate fleet was Lotara Sarrin watching them get blown to pieces.

 

So frankly, I find the Addaba Free Corps necessary, and it's a bloody shame they're such a rarity in how we got to experience the Siege unfolding. And the betrayal was very well handled, and I feel sorry for folks who read about it on here first, rather than following that plotline without seeing it coming.

 

 

The Siege of Terra burned me out on Transhuman Supersoldiers making war.

Edited October 4 by DarkChaplain

[darkhorse0607]

I guess to add an addendum to my rant, because I really don't want to come off as the "where are my space marines dumb human characters waaaaa" person

 

I 100% agree that there should've been more human stories in the Heresy. It's one of the reasons why I like books such as Deliverance Lost for the Imperial Army side of things there, Manus' book with the poor dude falling asleep during the briefing, Katsuhiro (sorry about the spelling), or characters like Euten or Lotarra and Ilya

 

I guess I should have slowed my roll on the rant, but I guess my overarching issue with a lot of the Siege stuff is that people were following these characters or legions (some less with how few books they got) for years. The Siege was the end. Supposedly. This was the last time that you get to see these characters or legions fight as legions, where they make their famous history. In the Iron Warriors case, this was where you finally got to see them at their strength, seiging Palace that we have all read about since before Horus Rising was written. For this specific book, this was supposed to be THE payoff for that legion.

 

But it wasn't. The author really didn't seem like he wanted to tell that story, and for folks into that group, whether it be the Iron Warriors here, the Emperors Children in Saturnine and after,  Word Bearers fans, etc, they left the 60+ book series without having "their" moment. Instead we got a train adventure, Erda+everything else that was thrown in, more perpetual stuff than you could shake a stick at, etc. I mean Abnett even started a separate Alpha Legion plot giving them something and then never even resolved it

 

So my apologies to the folks that wanted more human stories, I'm really not trying to come across as the salty space marine fan, truly. It's just frustrations with the series as a whole that I'm still not over especially since you never know if current (40k) Black Library is ever going to touch on specific factions again

Edited October 4 by darkhorse0607
typo

[wecanhaveallthree]

>I find it slightly ironic that for half the series, there was a very vocal part of the community who wanted more non-Space Marine stories being told, more focus on the boots on the ground, and then when it took up a bit of room in the Siege, it wasn't wanted anymore.

 

RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE

 

The Horus Heresy was the time to tell those stories: the plight of the everyman. There were some that did it with aplomb: the Dark Compliance narratives where Loyalists and Traitors squabbled over (and occasionally blew up and slaughtered) worlds that were figuring out which horse to back were great. The Heresy was the place to show the scale and scope of the conflict, how Joe Citizen dealt with the dream coming undone and the former dreams of unity dissolving into civil war and a new Age of Strife. One of my favourite books - DAMNATION OF PYTHOS - deals with this 'new paradigm'. 

 

The Siege is where we put that aside. The Siege is the Titanomachy: the clash of demigods and brothers, Emperor v Chaos Undivided, etc. There's room for the human element, of course, but I will literally never forgive them for starting with half a book of Mersadie Oliton Murder Mystery.

 

Frankly, much of it was just padding. I agree that 'human interest' stories like the train are interesting and add solid contrast, but the fact is that they bloated an already saggy mess out to unreadable proportions. We were slogging through this morass of C-plots to get a crumb of Cool Siege Moments.

 

There was a place for those stories: in anthologies, in side books like Sons of the Selenar, in the Heresy series. 

 

E:

 

>I guess I should have slowed my roll on the rant

 

Don't even think that, friend. Own your rants! Show your passion! Yell into the void! Say it with me: I LOVE PLASTIC SOLDIER MANS AND I AM PROUD OF IT

Edited October 4 by wecanhaveallthree

[The Scorpion]

 

 Let's just look at all the other human characters in the Siege - they all turned out to be either special snowflakes of mythical importance, like Keeler, Sindermann, Fo, Kat, John, Oll, Land, held big military roles like Su-Kassen and so forth. They were all vital in one way or another, and/or survived the Siege. Even Mersadie Oliton got her big return as a host for bloody Samus.

 

We were supposed to have a ground-level view through Katsuhiro, but... he was literally abandoned for half the series and had absolutely NO payoff during the End and the Death, and barely speaks half a dozen lines in the entire 3-volume tome. He was set up to carry a baby for a Space Marine who had a fake-out death previously, and then just tagged along with sodding Keeler for the remainder of the Siege. Wonderful, completely wasted character, for all the potential he was set up with.

I think everyone agrees the Katsuhiro bits are Goated, and your point about the Fo, Keeler, Oliton, etc, being no different than Primarchs and First Captains is right on the money imho: they may be human, but are still larger than life.

 

You know what other human POV was Goated besides Katsuhiro?

Niborran. Especially the whole affair with him being sacrificed for the Eternity Wall spaceport.

[Nagashsnee]

 

I find it slightly ironic that for half the series, there was a very vocal part of the community who wanted more non-Space Marine stories being told, more focus on the boots on the ground, and then when it took up a bit of room in the Siege, it wasn't wanted anymore.

 

As one of those people, i did want that, in the 54 book long HH series. As @wecanhaveallthree said this was the place for it. For any story building really. New characters, new ideas, new story threads. Build, explore, branch out. 

 

The siege (and huge thanks to BL for separating it into its own thing for the purposes of this argument) is about ENDING the HH. Its about closing the story on the characters, ideas and threads that they planned out and built up (hahahhahahaha)  over 10 years,54 books and how many anthologies. 

 

Serving me appetizers for desert and then claiming i kept saying i would like my meals to included some appetizers is NOT what anyone was asking for.   The siege was suppose to be the conclusion to the HH series, not introducing new elements, characters and story threads and trying to be its own mini series to the detriment of its actual purpose. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The entire plot of the first wall was one of the dumbest in general. Easily the worst siege of terra book when you add in all the character assassination.

[SvenIronhand]

Battle of the Fang - Provisional Rating: 9/10 (unless something goes seriously awry in the two or so chapters I have left, this is the final rating as well).

Another Chris Wraight home-run. I like this one, though it definitely shows its age in the Era Indomitus, given one of its major subplots. However, there's some interesting exploration of Fenrisian mores and mortal thoughts towards the Sky Warriors here. 

 

 

It's interesting to me (given the nature of my homebrews) that Morek (the mortal rivenmaster) and the other Space Wolves react with a mix of horror, fear, and ambivalence towards the creation of successors. Wyrmblade points this out, even. Fenrisians and the Sky Warriors aren't very prone to seeing what could be, but what they have in hand already. They're very 'is-ought' minded; how things are might as well be how they've always been.

[SvenIronhand]

Hill, Justin D.  Haspil, Michael "Amor Fati" - 10/10 (personal enjoyment level wise)

Eidolon might as well be tying women to train tracks. He eats a guy's brain to get off on it; he is twirling that mustache. He gets what he wants and realizes it's not sicko enough, so he decides to be more of a sicko instead. 

Edited October 8 by SvenIronhand

[Malkydel]

 

Hill, Justin D. "Amor Fati" - 10/10 (personal enjoyment level wise)

Eidolon might as well be tying women to train tracks. He eats a guy's brain to get off on it; he is twirling that mustache. He gets what he wants and realizes it's not sicko enough, so he decides to be more of a sicko instead. 

Just to note, it's actually Michael Haspil who wrote Amor Fati.

[SvenIronhand]

 

Just to note, it's actually Michael Haspil who wrote Amor Fati.

D'oh!

[JustinDHill]

 

23 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

Hill, Justin D.  Haspil, Michael "Amor Fati" - 10/10 (personal enjoyment level wise)

Eidolon might as well be tying women to train tracks. He eats a guy's brain to get off on it; he is twirling that mustache. He gets what he wants and realizes it's not sicko enough, so he decides to be more of a sicko instead. 

Sounds great! Wish I had written it. Not often I get a 10/10. :-) 

Edited October 9 by JustinDHill

[Roomsky]

Krieg (Re-Read) - Steve Lyons

 

Ohhhh yeah, that's the stuff.

 

Look, Lyons' prose is nothing special. His characters are fine, but are generally stock and not terribly deep. But the man's work with the Death Korps is peak 40k, IMO, if not necessarily peak fiction. In an age where the ironic grim and dark tends to be softened far too much for my taste, Lyons smothers you with it.

 

The Krieg backstory is of course the highlight. For all the planetary governor of Krieg was a spineless worm, I can't blame the secessionist forces for their decision. Readers sometimes miss that an entire planet that never sees a lick of combat would probably be somewhat doubtful about the galaxy's need for their most gifted sons, something not helped by how happy the Imperium is to supress information about its enemies. Indeed, the story's results mean the Imperium gets along just fine without them for a good 500 years before anyone even bothers to check up on them. The Imperium could have returned after those 500 years for to an even more prosperous planet ripe for reconquest. Jurten's unbending loyalty, his inviolable principles, turn his world into nothing but a hellish factory for troops. That the High Lords are willing to turn a blind eye to whatever they're doing to maintain such an output is even more deliciously 40k. It is the relentless grim that the setting was built upon and I love it.

 

The post-rift stuff isn't as exciting but it's just as dark. A reviewer on Goodreads suggested that the Krieg are portrayed as too straightforwardly superior because of their origins, but I disagree. All the Krieg Colonel manages to accomplish with his callous human-wave tactics is a higher Imperial body-count, the Imperium lost the battle for the hive anyway. The orks only get exterminated because of a dirty bomb underneath the hive, which the Krieg certainly didn't put there. On top of that, they may very well have allowed a member of the Inquisition to die so he didn't go poking around their homeworld. I'd say these sections fulfill their purpose well: they break up any action setpieces in the Jurten plot, and they thematically parallel the depressing fatalism of the Krieg. This isn't about hard men doing what needs to be done, this is about the Imperium's constant misery accomplishing nothing at all.

 

I wouldn't say the book has much style or grace; it's just pure, undiluted Imperial sludge. And that's awesome! To Taste, because you may want more artistry in your books and you may not vibe with this bleak a portrait of the setting (which is your right, even if you're objectively incorrect. I am the arbiter of good taste, you see.)

 

To those better versed in Krieg fluff:

 

This book's refusal to describe exactly how Krieg produces so many soldiers, combined with Jurten's visceral disgust at the process and comment of "these aren't war-horses," and the Krieg being basically all-male, painted a very… dark and gross picture in my head. But on top of the existence of female Krieg soldiers (which I've heard have been mentioned here and there for a while) and the meme that they're all just imperfect Jurten clones - what was the implication originally? Is it really just cloning?

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, Roomsky said:

I wouldn't say the book has much style or grace; it's just pure, undiluted Imperial sludge. And that's awesome! To Taste, because you may want more artistry in your books and you may not vibe with this bleak a portrait of the setting (which is your right, even if you're objectively incorrect. I am the arbiter of good taste, you see.)

 

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Roomsky said:

what was the implication originally? Is it really just cloning?

 

I do believe it was cloning, iron wombs or some such?

[byrd9999]

Fantastic review, Roomsky!

 

I'll second what Scribe said. My understanding is genetic cloning, the iron wombs and some kind of accelerated growth.

[The Scorpion]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:12 AM, Roomsky said:

Krieg (Re-Read) - Steve Lyons

 

Ohhhh yeah, that's the stuff.

 

Look, Lyons' prose is nothing special. His characters are fine, but are generally stock and not terribly deep. But the man's work with the Death Korps is peak 40k, IMO, if not necessarily peak fiction. In an age where the ironic grim and dark tends to be softened far too much for my taste, Lyons smothers you with it.

 

The Krieg backstory is of course the highlight. For all the planetary governor of Krieg was a spineless worm, I can't blame the secessionist forces for their decision. Readers sometimes miss that an entire planet that never sees a lick of combat would probably be somewhat doubtful about the galaxy's need for their most gifted sons, something not helped by how happy the Imperium is to supress information about its enemies. Indeed, the story's results mean the Imperium gets along just fine without them for a good 500 years before anyone even bothers to check up on them. The Imperium could have returned after those 500 years for to an even more prosperous planet ripe for reconquest. Jurten's unbending loyalty, his inviolable principles, turn his world into nothing but a hellish factory for troops. That the High Lords are willing to turn a blind eye to whatever they're doing to maintain such an output is even more deliciously 40k. It is the relentless grim that the setting was built upon and I love it.

 

The post-rift stuff isn't as exciting but it's just as dark. A reviewer on Goodreads suggested that the Krieg are portrayed as too straightforwardly superior because of their origins, but I disagree. All the Krieg Colonel manages to accomplish with his callous human-wave tactics is a higher Imperial body-count, the Imperium lost the battle for the hive anyway. The orks only get exterminated because of a dirty bomb underneath the hive, which the Krieg certainly didn't put there. On top of that, they may very well have allowed a member of the Inquisition to die so he didn't go poking around their homeworld. I'd say these sections fulfill their purpose well: they break up any action setpieces in the Jurten plot, and they thematically parallel the depressing fatalism of the Krieg. This isn't about hard men doing what needs to be done, this is about the Imperium's constant misery accomplishing nothing at all.

 

I wouldn't say the book has much style or grace; it's just pure, undiluted Imperial sludge. And that's awesome! To Taste, because you may want more artistry in your books and you may not vibe with this bleak a portrait of the setting (which is your right, even if you're objectively incorrect. I am the arbiter of good taste, you see.)

 

To those better versed in Krieg fluff:

 

This book's refusal to describe exactly how Krieg produces so many soldiers, combined with Jurten's visceral disgust at the process and comment of "these aren't war-horses," and the Krieg being basically all-male, painted a very… dark and gross picture in my head. But on top of the existence of female Krieg soldiers (which I've heard have been mentioned here and there for a while) and the meme that they're all just imperfect Jurten clones - what was the implication originally? Is it really just cloning?

This book is why I had such high expectations for the Siege of Vraks

 

I agree that the backstory is the highlight of the book, but it wouldn't work without the "present" section because it is, as you say, a book about what the Imperium values.

 

Krieg is hellish world for its people, but it is shown that for the Imperium it is actually BETTER that the planet is this way.

 

The Krieg hero, Colonel Jurten, while brave in some aspects also comes across as a fanatic unwilling to accept the slightest compromise. So much so that he'd rather burn his homeworld than let those he deems unworthy have it.

 

I liked the implication at the end too. The sins of Krieg aren't only those of Jurten's age, but also whatever dark science they use to make most of the Kriegers.

 

There are female Kriegers, even in the Death Korps, but I always did find suspicious that they had so little guardswomen when compared to other regiments, and the book does offer some plausible (albeit concerning) potential explanations for it

On 10/11/2024 at 6:18 PM, Scribe said:

 

I do believe it was cloning, iron wombs or some such?

I think it is ectogenic chambers, judging by Jurten's conversation with the Techpriest

[grailkeeper]

All I remember was that the Krieg Colonel the Imeprium initially meets at the first recontact had to think what his name was then said Jurten, which implied they were all clones of Jurten. 

[Roomsky]

Seems the Krieg soldiers are indeed clones. Well, that's less grim than I first thought. Anyway,

 

Black Legion - ADB

 

What a pleasure to re-read. My esteem for this book has only increased over the years; I always thought it was good, but when it first released I didn't think it lived up to Talon. As with so many works, divorcing it from new-release hype and weight of expectations lets one better appreciate its quality. This book really is a worthy sequel to Talon, exceeding it in places, and working just as hard to develop the mechanics of life in the Eye.

 

Everything about this book is crafted with supreme care. On top of immaculate pacing, Khayon's mythic, occasionally smarmy telling injects every sentence with intrigue. What is the truth of his words? What is an outright lie, and what is coloured by his unique place in the legion? This presentation keeps things interesting throughout a story leading to multiple foregone conclusions. Better than most Heresy books, the wonder of how a thing will happen is just as, if not more, effective than wondering what will happen.

 

Khayon himself is likewise masterfully rendered. So many little quirks, contradictions, and reflections paint a fully-realized person with a very realistic blindness to his own flaws. This is a man who had to own his shortcomings and idiosyncrasies to survive, and has thus dug a hole for himself when a totally new kind of challenge presents itself. I love it, despite the occasional "I am in this picture and I don't like it" moment.

 

Daravek received some criticism in the past, though my opinion on him has remained pretty high. He's not just excellent for facilitating Khayon's struggles above, but also for personifying why a powerful warlord hasn't usurped Abaddon in 10,000 years. Daravek is the apex of "some blessed Chaos Marine." He's powerful, ruthless, predictably punishes failure with death, devotes resources to spite, and is magnetic enough to court multiple gods and legions. But Daravek seeks vague power and vague revenge on the Imperium. He lives in the past and seeks to perfect the traitor marine status quo. He doesn't truly evolve the fight as does the Despoiler.

 

Obviously it's ADB, so basically every other facet is also great. Instead of rambling on about the book's uncountable virtues, I'll mention my one teensy-tiny criticism.

 

This is Khayon's book, and as such reduces pagetime for his close friends like Lheor. Perfectly reasonable. But the lack of meaningful camaraderie with anyone but Abaddon, combined with Khayon's feeling of distance from his legion brothers as Abaddon's assassin, means that Khayon's renewed need for Vindicta coming from a single dead Black Legionary wrapped in a flag someone pissed on seems slightly thin. Sure, he wouldn't be pleased about it, but flying into an unstoppable rage? Harder to believe. If there was some way to rearrange things so he lost Ashur Kai before then, and thus felt even more removed from his past life, it would have been more convincing IMO. Which isn't to say the set-up for this moment is absent, it's not out of character, I just think it's a single muddled element in an otherwise masterfully planned plot.

 

10/10 Must Read. May we see Black Legion 3 some day.

[grailkeeper]

I remember seeing on Facebook his plans sketched out for the black legion series. There were to be about 12 books. Abaddon doesn't get Drachneyen till something like the 7th. The next is about the first black Crusade (lexicanum says he got drachneyen on this Crusade so my memories might be playing tricks on me).

 

[darkhorse0607]

Honestly agree. I really struggled getting through Talon and Black Legion the first time around, but they're the kind of books that get better with each re-read for me

[DukeLeto69]

7 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

I remember seeing on Facebook his plans sketched out for the black legion series. There were to be about 12 books. Abaddon doesn't get Drachneyen till something like the 7th. The next is about the first black Crusade (lexicanum says he got drachneyen on this Crusade so my memories might be playing tricks on me).

 

Pretty sure Abbie launches the First Black Crusade (to get the sword) so both were intended to happen in the third novel. Worrying thing is it is starting to feel like we may never see it. It feels all so mysterious. And IF/WHEN it does come out it likely won’t be able to live up to expectations now! The moment is almost gone!

[wecanhaveallthree]

Perhaps it'll be an Emperor's Sword situation, in that every time it was mentioned its origin was changed?