Heavy Hitters: Leviathan, Blizzard Dreadnought, Wulfen

[Splog]

In a vacuum (ie yes it depends on your list, playstyle, opponent, etc) would you prefer to have:

 

- Leviathan with grav flux bombard, and a CC weapon

- 2x Dreadnoughts armed with a blizzard shield and an axe

- a squad of Wulfen equipped with thunder hammers and storm shields

[M.Redbeard]

With the changes to the Blizzard shield I'd argue that the Wulfen are the better deal.I am going to consider the antitank, because that is what the Leviathan is good at doing.

 

-Leviatan Dread is 14 wounds with 4++ T8 model. Anti tank he does an average of 2 shooting attacks withe Grav so only a wound would enter on average so 5 damage antivehicle (if it is not a Knight or other vehicle with Invuln). Melta is pretty unreliable but lets say a couple of wounda more. The Drill does 8 wounds more. So lets say 15 wounds for the Leviathan Dread if all goes.

 

-The Ven Dread would be 16 Wounds with a 4++, a 6+ FnP and T7 .against antitank with the axe you'd get 13 wounds with both of them.

 

Wulfen you can get a pack of 7 for that price. That nets you 14 wounds with a 3++ on 12 of those and a 5+ FnP on all of them although at T4 (with also the advantage that overkill goes to a single model). Anti tank they do 20 wounds with the hammers and an extra 1.5 wounds with the Frost Claws. They can also be shuffeled into a transport, put On the Hunt, get easier behind terrain and move an average of 10" and charge a rerollable charge.

 

As anti horde the Lev kills 6 out of 15 targets. The Venerable kill 11. And the wulfen 13 (the claws are very efectivw antihorde). Of course it also depend on other factors, but all things being the same I would usually go with the Wulfen for killing potential and versatitly

[TiguriusX]

I use my leviathan as a character blocker to move across the board. Pre codex it was bjorn but probably changing to WL and WGBL now

 

Dual storm cannon to clear chaff, elite infantry and most vehicles

 

Will be one of the deadliest chooser of the slain units as well (SW version of auspec scan due to BS2)

 

Pre codex people would tie it up in melee (eldar transports for example). Post codex that isn't as safe because 6" heroic intervention thunder hammers will be able to reach you

 

Synergy from a full shooting leviathan will make it worth fielding

[PeteySödes]

Are you locked to that Leviathan loadout? I just am not convinced that the CC weapon is a good investment. If you're willing to run a 2xSCA or Grav thats what i'd do personally.

 

I love the dreads but without some playtesting on the 4+ i need to see if its worth doubling up. Even if it is, that combo will struggle against aeldari/drukhari types.

[GrFlur]

With the changes to the Blizzard shield I'd argue that the Wulfen are the better deal.I am going to consider the antitank, because that is what the Leviathan is good at doing.

 

-Leviatan Dread is 14 wounds with 4++ T8 model. Anti tank he does an average of 2 shooting attacks withe Grav so only a wound would enter on average so 5 damage antivehicle (if it is not a Knight or other vehicle with Invuln). Melta is pretty unreliable but lets say a couple of wounda more. The Drill does 8 wounds more. So lets say 15 wounds for the Leviathan Dread if all goes.

 

-The Ven Dread would be 16 Wounds with a 4++, a 6+ FnP and T7 .against antitank with the axe you'd get 13 wounds with both of them.

 

Wulfen you can get a pack of 7 for that price. That nets you 14 wounds with a 3++ on 12 of those and a 5+ FnP on all of them although at T4 (with also the advantage that overkill goes to a single model). Anti tank they do 20 wounds with the hammers and an extra 1.5 wounds with the Frost Claws. They can also be shuffeled into a transport, put On the Hunt, get easier behind terrain and move an average of 10" and charge a rerollable charge.

 

As anti horde the Lev kills 6 out of 15 targets. The Venerable kill 11. And the wulfen 13 (the claws are very efectivw antihorde). Of course it also depend on other factors, but all things being the same I would usually go with the Wulfen for killing potential and versatitly

 

StormShield are going to be 4++ so  maybe not that interesting choice for the wulfen

[TiguriusX]

blizzard shield for dreads are 4++

 

looks like regular SS is still 3++

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

With the changes to the Blizzard shield I'd argue that the Wulfen are the better deal.I am going to consider the antitank, because that is what the Leviathan is good at doing.

 

-Leviatan Dread is 14 wounds with 4++ T8 model. Anti tank he does an average of 2 shooting attacks withe Grav so only a wound would enter on average so 5 damage antivehicle (if it is not a Knight or other vehicle with Invuln). Melta is pretty unreliable but lets say a couple of wounda more. The Drill does 8 wounds more. So lets say 15 wounds for the Leviathan Dread if all goes.

 

-The Ven Dread would be 16 Wounds with a 4++, a 6+ FnP and T7 .against antitank with the axe you'd get 13 wounds with both of them.

 

Wulfen you can get a pack of 7 for that price. That nets you 14 wounds with a 3++ on 12 of those and a 5+ FnP on all of them although at T4 (with also the advantage that overkill goes to a single model). Anti tank they do 20 wounds with the hammers and an extra 1.5 wounds with the Frost Claws. They can also be shuffeled into a transport, put On the Hunt, get easier behind terrain and move an average of 10" and charge a rerollable charge.

 

As anti horde the Lev kills 6 out of 15 targets. The Venerable kill 11. And the wulfen 13 (the claws are very efectivw antihorde). Of course it also depend on other factors, but all things being the same I would usually go with the Wulfen for killing potential and versatitly

StormShield are going to be 4++ so maybe not that interesting choice for the wulfen

The nerf is to the Blizzard Shield as far as all reviews go, not the Stork Shield. So Wulfen are the same but Ven Dreads are less resilient.

 

I use my leviathan as a character blocker to move across the board. Pre codex it was bjorn but probably changing to WL and WGBL now

 

Dual storm cannon to clear chaff, elite infantry and most vehicles

 

Will be one of the deadliest chooser of the slain units as well (SW version of auspec scan due to BS2)

 

Pre codex people would tie it up in melee (eldar transports for example). Post codex that isn't as safe because 6" heroic intervention thunder hammers will be able to reach you

 

Synergy from a full shooting leviathan will make it worth fielding

I have no Forge World models, but that seems like the optimal loadout. It feels a different niche than Wulfen and have a different purpose.

 

A thing to consider though is how important is that Character blocker. With Bjorn you had to walk up the board so it was fundamental. But WL and WGBL can be put into transports or DS. A Leviathan on your back field as a support to Long Fangs might be better.

[TiguriusX]

leviathan has mid to short range guns

 

24" for storm cannon

 

18" for grav bombard

 

most games sitting a 300+ unit in the back will be out of range and will not be worth the points

 

 

as for my wl and wgbl they will have jump packs and need 1 turn of escorting to mid field before they go hunting

 

i dont believe in SM transportation unless it is free

[M.Redbeard]

Too bad for the range of the Leviathan, thought the Storm Cannon had a better range.

 

Still think that a Stormwolf is better for moving up (higher movement, different loudouts, you can bring the HQ with Jump Packs and 12 other Infantry amd get them far closer to their target) but to each his own.

[KGatch113]

Why the change from Bjorn as a the walking character?

[TiguriusX]

Why the change from Bjorn as a the walking character?

New codex makes WL and WGBL with jump packs a must have. Best source of points i have to spare is Bjorn (they also replace him as HQ for detachment needs)

[vigitant]

For leviathan, Storm Cannons beats out everything else pretty soundly.  That being said, bringing it in a Deathwatch detachment would be your best bang for your buck.  Reroll 1's to wound, +1 to wound, and reroll 1's to hit from WotA make him disgustingly good against everything.  You can deep strike him, preventing alpha strikes, and ensuring youre in range.  2 rapiers and a jump libby for might of heroes/veil of time on your SW hq's would round out a detachment.
Gravflux bombard only beats out storm cannons against 15+ hordes, and the storm cannon is still good against these.

Melee is super risky.  Putting that many points into an expensive model that wont come into play until likely turn 3-4 is probably not going to work.  Storm cannons start putting in work as soon as they reach that 24" range.

Between the other 2, i'd choose the wulfen.  Wulfen with TH are disgustingly good right now.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

Wulfen for me. My 2 Leviathans are serving their duty with the Deathwatch, where they are much better purposed.

[PeteySödes]

I plan on testing my storm bolter/shield wolf guard outflanking with an Arjak/Njal drop this weekend. Typically I use them to hem in a flank while Bjorn and his dread escort push the middle. Not as hard-hitting as wulfen but I think better for obj holding when the deed is done.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Are you locked to that Leviathan loadout? I just am not convinced that the CC weapon is a good investment. If you're willing to run a 2xSCA or Grav thats what i'd do personally.

 

I love the dreads but without some playtesting on the 4+ i need to see if its worth doubling up. Even if it is, that combo will struggle against aeldari/drukhari types.

I'd say it depends. If the Leviathan is being supported or the Leviathan is supporting a unit(s) then I think it does dine with a mix of shooting and CC weapons. If the Leviathan is being utilized more by itself I absolutely agree 2 ranged weapons are the way to go. I will be magnetizing all the weapons on my Leviathan to see which combination(s) I like the best. I am definitely curious to see how it's going to perform with a CCW. As long as you can get it in range I don't know if anything competes with dual Grav-Bombards.. they are just so deadly to both Vehicles/MCs and massed infantry units alike. 

 

leviathan has mid to short range guns

 

24" for storm cannon

 

18" for grav bombard

 

most games sitting a 300+ unit in the back will be out of range and will not be worth the points

 

 

as for my wl and wgbl they will have jump packs and need 1 turn of escorting to mid field before they go hunting

 

i dont believe in SM transportation unless it is free

Too bad for the range of the Leviathan, thought the Storm Cannon had a better range.

 

Still think that a Stormwolf is better for moving up (higher movement, different loudouts, you can bring the HQ with Jump Packs and 12 other Infantry amd get them far closer to their target) but to each his own.

 

The short range is mitigated if you toss the Leviathan in a Drop Pod ;) 

[PeteySödes]

My arguement is that while super fun the SCA are way more reliable which is important when paying the amount of points you do for the big guy. My other issue is that the difference of 18 and 24 inches is big when talking about units closing on you to lock you down.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'd say your argument is absolutely valid.. and that's why I made the distinction between a supported and an unsupported Leviathan unit. I'd say the Leviathan is strong enough and has enough combat output to build at least part of a list around it. If units are closing in on it and it's isolated with out support, then you're right it's going to get run down pretty easily. With HI it would be very unwise to charge a Leviathan that is being supported by or that is supporting a character. If you saturate a section of the board with hard hitting unit then an opponent might not want to dump all his firepower into the leviathan alone and receive some hurting on the next players shooting and or assault phase. It's all going to depend on what your list requires and what your intended use is for the Leviathan. 

[Karhedron]

I think the SCA will do more damage on average against most targets. The Grav Bombards only do more damage against a small number of targets and are stuck with shorter range. T8 targets look like the only place the bombard outperforms the SCA I think (and even there the SCA will likely force some damage through with weight of dice). If you want dedicated anti-tank, I would argue some Lascannon Longfangs will do better and at much longer range.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

The Grav-Bombard adds D3 dice to the number of attacks for every 5 models in the unit. That's 3D3 shots against a unit of 10 models and with AP -5. That weapon is certainly not only useful against T8 targets... Now the SCA might pair better with a CCW. dual-Grav is definitely better than a single or dual SCA. 

[PeteySödes]

The Grav-Bombard adds D3 dice to the number of attacks for every 5 models in the unit. That's 3D3 shots against a unit of 10 models and with AP -5. That weapon is certainly not only useful against T8 targets... Now the SCA might pair better with a CCW. dual-Grav is definitely better than a single or dual SCA.

Again not nessisarily re: grav being better than dual SCA give me flat shots and damage over swingy dice# shots. I’ve ran both, I like both, but the SCA outperforms the grav consistently against a wider range of armies.

[M.Redbeard]

The variability of Grav-Flux I'd say works against it. While on average it'd kill more MEQ or TEQs i max squads, those units are run as MSU normally rather than full. Against GEQ the extra AP and strength mean nothing so you need a horde of 20 or more to get on average the same numver of shots (and for the same on average means flat is usually better due to the reliability). So in the current MEQ light meta it'd say SCA is better due being consistent. The biggest difference as said would be against T8 models due to the big difference to wound. Then again against Vehicles and such the Grav Flux is only 2 shots (doing the math against a "KEQ" they do the same damage due to difference in shots and the Ion Shield invuln).

[PeteySödes]

The variability of Grav-Flux I'd say works against it. While on average it'd kill more MEQ or TEQs i max squads, those units are run as MSU normally rather than full. Against GEQ the extra AP and strength mean nothing so you need a horde of 20 or more to get on average the same numver of shots (and for the same on average means flat is usually better due to the reliability). So in the current MEQ light meta it'd say SCA is better due being consistent. The biggest difference as said would be against T8 models due to the big difference to wound. Then again against Vehicles and such the Grav Flux is only 2 shots (doing the math against a "KEQ" they do the same damage due to difference in shots and the Ion Shield invuln).

 

Ooh boy KEQ took me a second, coffee time...

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

The variability of Grav-Flux I'd say works against it. While on average it'd kill more MEQ or TEQs i max squads, those units are run as MSU normally rather than full. Against GEQ the extra AP and strength mean nothing so you need a horde of 20 or more to get on average the same numver of shots (and for the same on average means flat is usually better due to the reliability). So in the current MEQ light meta it'd say SCA is better due being consistent. The biggest difference as said would be against T8 models due to the big difference to wound. Then again against Vehicles and such the Grav Flux is only 2 shots (doing the math against a "KEQ" they do the same damage due to difference in shots and the Ion Shield invuln).

Ooh boy KEQ took me a second, coffee time...

Hehe thought it might since I just made it up. But aeeing the prevalence of Knights in the current meta it seemed a good shorthand. Amd it also works against Plagueburst Crawlers so cool.

[vigitant]

Some mathhammer on the leviathan:
Each entry assuming 2x the weapon.  Output is unsaved damage taken or models dead if any.  No rerolls factored in.
Vs knight:
Grav-flux: 7.4

SC: 7.4

Vs tank(T7, 3+)
Both: 11.1

5m MEQ:
GF:  6 models dead
SC:  7 models dead

10m MEQ
GF: 8 models dead
SC: Same as above

Banana bikes:
5-9 bikes:
GF: 1 dead
SC 3 Dead

Captain with a 3++
GF: 1.4 dmg
SC: 7.4 dmg

T3 troops, 5+ armor

SC: 14 models dead

GF:
5m: 6 models dead
10m: 8 dead
15m:  11 dead
20m: 14 dead

So Graf flux is only better against 10+ MEQ, or 25+ T3 infantry.  Against armor you're giving up range for no real benefit.
If you run a leviathan as DW, the storm cannon becomes stupid strong with rerolls and +1 to wound.