Using different Marine Codex?

[Grim Dog Studios]

Hi all,

Apologies if this is in the wrong section, wasn’t sure whether to post it here or the Adeptus Astartes forum. If the mods feel it better placed in another section of the forum feel free to move it!

I’m currently planning to start a DIY 40K chapter after losing interest in 30K and it remaining in 7th whilst all of my gaming buddies have moved onto 8th leaving me to try and play my 30K ultras with the 8th edition marine codex.

My main issue is I’m not sure what direction I want to take my DIY chapter, I know I want them to be themed around Greek Mythology and to be close combat orientated, however the regular marine codex is a bit poor in options for close combat marine armies. I’m currently thinking about using the Blood Angels codex or the upcoming Space Wolves codex depending on the options within it however thematically I want my chapter to be an Ultras successor (formed during the second founding out of my homebrew 30k Ultramarines company).

I was just wondering if using one of these codices instead of the regular marine codex would be considered too “gamey” to people, especially in the case of the Space Wolves who don’t have successors.

I’m asking for your opinions on this matter as I’m really not sure what to do.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

Jay

[Bryan Blaire]

Is it gamey? Sure. Does that matter in the slightest if it allows you to play your army how you envision them? Nope.

 

The question I would have playing you is "How did you represent the different units?" and "What is your fluff for why an Ultramarine successor might have a unit that 'behaves' like Death Company?" or "So why do they fight like Wolves instead of Ultramarines?"

 

Honestly, as long as you've given some thought to the fluff behind them and it’s fun and interesting, and you have some way for me to tell your different units apart (even just writing a description down on paper for me), I'm down with you enjoying playing your army the way you want to play it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So long as the units look the part, and you explain why the units are like they are, then it works for me. To be honest, I've never been a fan of the whole "every successor Chapter must be an exact clone of the founder, just painted a different colour" trope. We need more Chapters that break the mold, like the Mantis Warriors using White Scar geneseed, but not having any affinity for bikes at all.

In other words, don't feel that an Ultramarines successor absolutely must be a by-the-Codex vaguely Greco-Roman Chapter. There are plenty of examples of wildly divergent Ultra successors, like the Silver Skulls and their love of prognostication.

[Kite Senet]

I'll play the devil's advocate here. Personally, as one who plays the game almost exclusively for the fluff and the in-game narrative, I would honestly find it slightly game-y to play against an army which was fluff-based entirely on the Ultramarines and painted up as such but operated under Blood Angels or Space Wolves rules. I think it would disarm the internal narrative of a match quite a bit to start whipping out some of the very fluffy Thousand Sons/Space Wolves rivalry Stratagems like Vengeance for Prospero against models that are clearly painted as plain old Ultramarines.

 

That said, there are fluffy ways to deal with this. It might be dumb and/or a bit of a stretch, but (for example) you could claim your successor chapter once fought alongside the Space Wolves and lost their captain and found themselves stumbling over their own strictures, at which point the Wolf Lord stepped in, rallied both forces, and pushed the alliance towards victory; after this, the successor chapter realized the flaws in the Codex Astartes and asked to join that numerically depleted Space Wolves pack, essentially integrating Space Wolf philosophy and history (and a small amount of iconography--maybe one SW pauldron per model or something simple like that) into an Ultramarines successor. I would also suggest allusions to Romulus and Remus and the she-wolf, because historical allusions are awesome.

 

But, don't take my opinion (or my suggestion) too seriously; you're not playing against me, after all, and they're Your Dudes, not mine or anyone else's.

[Lord_Caerolion]

He never said they'll be painted as Ultramarines, though? He's making a DIY Chapter, that just uses Ultramarine geneseed, and came from a 2nd Founding, like many of the other different Successors. There's absolutely nothing that says that Ultramarine successors absolutely must rigidly follow the Codex, in fact there are numerous examples of successor Chapters differing wildly in character and strategic tendencies from their progenitor. 

 

It's a massive galaxy, not everything needs to boil down to clones of the same 9 Chapters over and over, or only be similar because they're deliberately copying others. Geneseed doesn't predispose Marines to specific actions or behaviours, or at least not to the extent that every Successor is just the founder in different colours. The culture of the homeworld is just as important, if not more so.

 

How about they're just a Marine Chapter that draws from a world with a far more martial culture, more along the lines of Spartans than Romans, with close combat seen as more honourable than ranged combat. There's a large degree of ancestor-worship, striving to emulate the heroic deeds of the ancients, which encourages the Chapter to seek to create their own legend to one day be told to the newest recruits. That'd fit using the Space Wolf codex, in my opinion, as just change the names around, and you can make a list almost indistinguishable from what can be done with a Codex Marine list. Just minimise the amount of Fenrisian Wolves (although using some of the old High Elf models, you could make a unit of Herakles Brethren, riding on war lions, counting as Thunderwolf Cavalry).

[Kinstryfe]

As long as everything adheres to the Codex you've chosen, there's no problem. I look at it the other way: if someone made a chapter of Blood Angels genestock who were fully codex compliant and used Codex:SM, I can't see anyone making a huge fuss over it. Plus, let's say it's even a moderately new chapter, only 3000 years old. How much do you still have in common with your ancestors from around 1000BCE? There /should/ be huge drift in how chapters behave after that long.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, before the Lamenters were changed to having the Black Rage returning, I was going to use the Space Marines codex for them, even though they're Blood Angel successors, as structurally they tend not to have much Blood Angel-y stuff.

That, and as Kinstryfe mentions, people tend to forget how big the time difference between 2nd Founding and "current time" is. 10,000 years is more than all of recorded human history, from memory.

[Halandaar]

Is your army built legally, with models clearly representing the units you chose and you paid the right points costs for them? If so then you've satisfied the only condition required of you to play a game of 40k.

 

Whether your "Space Wolves" happen to be purple-clad spartans with horsehair crests riding into battle on lions is completely unimportant in the context of the game itself. As far as I'm concerned, all but the most well described successor chapters (Crimson Fists and the like) are fair game when it comes to how they are organised and what their combat doctrine is. In a galaxy of infinite possibilities, the idea that the thousands of Chapters of the Astartes operate in a maximum of 10 specific ways is pretty nonsensical, especially when we have novels and other sources which describe the opposite.

[Dr. Clock]

If your force follows the Codex in fluff, then personally I'd avoid Space Wolves... their units are quite radically different.

 

Blood Angels would work fine, though... their list is essentially Codex compliant; I'd just avoid the parts that are more esoteric (Death Company, Baal Predators etc). Fluff-wise I think it'll be fine as the main difference will be a focus on melee which is easy enough to pass off as 'this is an Assault Company'.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Bryan Blaire]

I'll play the devil's advocate here.

 

I think it would disarm the internal narrative of a match quite a bit to start whipping out some of the very fluffy Thousand Sons/Space Wolves rivalry Stratagems like Vengeance for Prospero against models that are clearly painted as plain old Ultramarines.

To play devil’s advocate on your advocation - are you saying that by you playing a stratagem that isn’t fluffy against non-Wolves (even if they are using the Wolves’ rules, but look nothing like Wolves and don’t claim the Wolves’ lineage) to get a game advantage, it’s the other person’s fault you are being game-y for them using the Wolves’ Codex to best represent a force that may fight similarly to the Wolves, but that clearly isn’t intended to actually be Space Wolves?

 

If you aren’t playing something on the table-top that looks like the Wolves, shouldn’t you choose not to use those Stratagems to maintain the fluff narrative? And I would think that an opponent would do the same - for instance, if they don’t have any “enhanced senses” for some reason, then they shouldn’t use a Stratagem that relies on such during the game (although there are other ways to explain some things like that).

 

Conversely, if you are playing me and I dropped my Iron Wolves Great Company on the table, but I’m using rules to allow me to better represent specialized use of those heavy weapons (which to me would fit a Great Company that specializes in the use of said heavy weapons), then you should definitely get to use your fluffy “Vengeance for Prospero” Strategem against my forces regardless of the rules I’m using, because they are obviously Space Wolves.

 

It’s one of those weird intersections where the game rules can’t cover every single fluff thing people might want to do with their armies, but we as players can easily agree is something that would be interesting in our own games and “house-rule” it because it would be fun and fluffy to us both.

 

But, don't take my opinion (or my suggestion) too seriously; you're not playing against me, after all, and they're Your Dudes, not mine or anyone else's.

Definitely, we can all only speak for ourselves, so you should definitely work out whatever game agreements you can with your opponents before you start playing against them any time you are doing something outside the norm.

[Kite Senet]

 

To play devil’s advocate on your advocation - are you saying that by you playing a stratagem that isn’t fluffy against non-Wolves (even if they are using the Wolves’ rules, but look nothing like Wolves and don’t claim the Wolves’ lineage) to get a game advantage, it’s the other person’s fault you are being game-y for them using the Wolves’ Codex to best represent a force that may fight similarly to the Wolves, but that clearly isn’t intended to actually be Space Wolves?

 

If you aren’t playing something on the table-top that looks like the Wolves, shouldn’t you choose not to use those Stratagems to maintain the fluff narrative?

 

It isn't really a matter of "fault"--it just creates an awkward (and for nerds like me, slightly unpleasant) situation where you and your opponents are forced to either (1) play by the rules as written (but not fitting the painted models on the board) or (2) diverge from the rules as written to match the fluff, which may potentially unbalance the game. Suppose this hypothetical Wolves in Ultramarine's clothing army plays against me and my Thousand Sons -- do I get Vengeance for Prospero? If I claim it, it compromises the fluff experience, and if I don't, I'm going to feel like I'm not playing optimally within the rules afforded to us. No fault on either side^[1], but it's pretty awkward.

 

Most of this can be assuaged by ensuring your army actually integrates some facet of the imitated faction, however. For example, the Blood Angels but Codex devotees suggestion of Kinstryfe^[2] has a good reason these Blood Angels should be Codex: SM--they've adopted (moreso than normal) the core defining trait of that subset of Space Marines. I don't know anything about Blood Angels, so it's hard for me to say such a fluff connection between them and Guilliman's sons is difficult or not, but it seems plausible. The Space Wolves are a little trickier as previously mentioned, but it's still feasible to draw a fluff connection between them and the Ultramarines that would draw them into the flock pack.

 

The key point I'm attempting to make is, if you're going to be playing with fluff nerds, don't discount this sort of rules-narrative dissonance--be sure to address it in some way. It doesn't have to be a great, highly plausible backstory integrated into extant lore in a hundred different ways (they're Your Dudes, and if you put in the effort to provide them some explanatory fluff, they can take it or leave it), but at least write something into the backstory of your army that justifies why your Ultramarines Space Marines are actually Grey Hunters. (And if you haven't already painted the army, hints of Space Wolf iconography may also help to remind them of what they're playing against.)

 

[1] Unless the opponent is intentionally avoiding Vengeance for Prospero by donning Ultramarines iconography, but I'm sure that's not the OP's intention.

[2] I'm a bit confused by this, since I thought the Blood Angels were already Codex compliant, so I'm assuming Kinstryfe is suggesting they're more Codex-devoted?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think most people won't care, as long as it makes sense. Grey hunters instead of tacticals isn't some huge stretch for a CC focused chapter, Wulfen though are a bit much. As long as the models are WYISWG you shouldn't have any issues. 

[Bryan Blaire]

It isn't really a matter of "fault"--it just creates an awkward (and for nerds like me, slightly unpleasant) situation where you and your opponents are forced to either (1) play by the rules as written (but not fitting the painted models on the board) or (2) diverge from the rules as written to match the fluff, which may potentially unbalance the game. Suppose this hypothetical Wolves in Ultramarine's clothing army plays against me and my Thousand Sons -- do I get Vengeance for Prospero? If I claim it, it compromises the fluff experience, and if I don't, I'm going to feel like I'm not playing optimally within the rules afforded to us. No fault on either side, but it's pretty awkward.

 

The key point I'm attempting to make is, if you're going to be playing with fluff nerds, don't discount this sort of rules-narrative dissonance--be sure to address it in some way. It doesn't have to be a great, highly plausible backstory integrated into extant lore in a hundred different ways (they're Your Dudes, and if you put in the effort to provide them some explanatory fluff, they can take it or leave it), but at least write something into the backstory of your army that justifies why your Ultramarines Space Marines are actually Grey Hunters. (And if you haven't already painted the army, hints of Space Wolf iconography may also help to remind them of what they're playing against.)

So the dissonance I’m getting with what you are saying is that you are describing a “fluff-nerd”, but are worrying about playing optimally. Those two don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand, and from what I’ve found is that people who are truly concerned with fluff will tend to not worry as much about whether their force is optimal or played optimally or that the game may be unbalanced. Instead, they tend to want to have an interesting story and will purposefully look at alternate rules or limit themselves to play within the fluffy scenario on the table.

 

It’s an interesting conflict to me to be a fluff-nerd but want to optimize an army, since the two tend not to mirror each other well at all, most optimized armies tend to bear little resemblance to a force described in the BL fluff, etc. Most fluff-nerds already recognize the inherent fluff-rules dissonance just in playing the game as written, so at some point one or the other is going to have to give some.

 

I think that if someone is playing something out of the norm, ask them how they are planning to play, and describe how you want to play. If you can both agree that a Wolves-rules but UM Successor that doesn’t get to use X Stratagems, because they wouldn’t have access to them, while a TS player playing against the not-Wolves doesn’t get to use X Stratagems or even units like Wulfen (can’t get those if you don’t have the Canis Helix present), but it sounds like a fun story, you’re probably going to have a great game. If either party is really focused on getting everything optimal out of their army, then you probably know that you really aren’t playing a fluffy game, in which case both parties need to use the full extent of their rules as written and play hard to the hilt and not worry about the fluff.

 

A lot of these things are going to be very situational depending on what the person is trying to do, but they can make for a lot of very enjoyable, fluffy games without focusing too much on the rules.

[Grim Dog Studios]

I thank you all for the input on the matter, lots of interesting responses with reasons for and against using a different codex it seems. I'm not sure where to start with addressing all the points made but I shall make an attempt to!

I think I ought to start by saying my DIY chapter, whilst Ultramarine successors, are not fully codex-compliant. So far in my head-fluff at the moment I have decided that it is a rare sight for a large force of my marines to be assembled in a single battlezone, instead opting to send a single squad/a few squads to fight the enemy akin to the Mentor Legion. Obviously this is not going to be the case when I play an actual 40K battle, which in my head is going to represent one of those rare instances where the chapter is deploying troops en mass. This also makes sense from a real-life point as me and my main gaming buddy rarely have the time to play full 40K games and instead now with the release of kill-team will likely be playing that more often. I do have quite a bit of head-fluff in my head also as to why they aren't codex compliant but it isn't completely relevant to the thread. I will eventually post it all up when I start a project log for anybody interested!

 

The chapter itself is based on Greek Mythology rather than the historical greco-roman influence that the Ultramarines have, I know to some it likely seems there is a little difference in the two but I like to think there is! Like I said I wanted the chapter to be close-combat orientated, with each marine carrying a bolter, bolt pistol, and combat blade/chainsword (going to try and model up some Xiphos/Kopis blades to represent this). This is one of the main reasons for wanting to use the Space Wolves codex, as the Grey Hunters allow for me to do this in-game, whilst your regular run of the mill tactical marines are a bit poor in close combat.

 

Now when it comes to some of the more wolfy units e.g. Space Wolves Gunship, Wulfen, Thunderwolf cavalry. I think I will likely pass on using them as obviously they do not fit the theme of my army and I'm not really a fan of Marines riding giant wolves into battle. Likewise I wouldn't use units from the BA codex that very specific to them like the Baal Predator and various dreadnoughts that they have. When it comes to Fenrisian Wolves/Cyber-wolves however I may use these units sparingly, as there is loads of examples of Greek Gods and the like having Hunting Hounds that accompany them etc. This also gives me an excuse to use the FW limited Edition Cyber-mastiff and the FW Necromunda Cyber-mastiff which are fantastic miniatures. Obviously I would model these up on appropriate bases so that they have the same sized silhouette as the Fenrisian wolf miniatures. Honestly it's the better Close-combat options that the SW and BA codex have rather than the units that are only available to them (infantry units aside).

 

I will be honest and say I did not even know Thousand Sons/Space Wolves rivalry Stratagems existed, having no Thousand Sons player in my gaming group. I suppose having no player in my group shall mean I won't run into this problem but this isn't the case for somebody else who is doing something similar to me. I personally would be happy to agree before a game with my opponent whether we can use the Stratagems or not, so I don't see this as an issue but can understand why others might.

 

I think I have covered most of the points made so far in the thread, if I have missed any just let me know and I shall try to address them. I hope that I have provided justifiable reasons for using a different codex instead of the regular marine codex. I should say that I do not intend to be 'game-y' player, I just play because it gives me something to do with the models that I enjoy converting, painting and making fluff for. Actually playing a game comes rather far down on the list to me in this hobby, I would just like to play them how I would like to play them. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to read my rather large chunk of text, and I'd love for the opinions on the matter to keep coming in!

Jay

[Ishagu]

This would ultimately depend on the models and how they look.

 

If you say something like "those Greek themed bikes over there are actually thunder wolves cavalry" then I'll have a massive problem with that.

 

If, on the other hand, you had some sweet conversions of models riding lions or robotic wolves then it changes everything.

[CCE1981]

I am using the different codicies to represent the different fighting styles of the different Companies in my DIY Chapter. With Space Wolves coming iut I am planing on Primaris sized Marine riding the AoS Griffon-esq Palladors, as Thunder Wolf Cavalry.

 

If I decide to do a Death Company, my Chapter abhors waste, part of their background of having been cut off from supplies in their formation, so rogue non-chaos fallen marines that are captured are given a chance to die in combat against the Emperor’s foes. Things of that nature.

 

I set each of my main Companies responsible for their own recruiting, and turned the Tenth into a “Special Forces” branch that integrates and trains the rest of the Chapter in different fighting styles, using DeathWatch rules, or as Kill Team.

 

I kinda digressed off topic to get to my point that good background, and a little imagination can be used to use the rules of a model listed in the codex without necessarily the model. For your theme and style preferences instead of TWC, I would think WW II/ Korean War jeeps or something along those lines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I kinda digressed off topic to get to my point that good background, and a little imagination can be used to use the rules of a model listed in the codex without necessarily the model. For your theme and style preferences instead of TWC, I would think WW II/ Korean War jeeps or something along those lines.

 

Wouldn't those be better represented by Land Speeders that you'd house-rule to not have the Fly rule?

[Brother Crimson]

Blood angels really would not be a problem, they have a lot less special unit and even sanguinary guards were just gold jump pack guys with power weapons a few editions back. Just give a way to distinguish normal marines from death company and sanguinary guards and you are set.

 

There is also precedent in the fluff (Carmine blades) where they were cut away from Blood Angels for so long that they were considered as a ultramarine successor. Only millennia later when they met high chaplain they understood where the bloodlust curse came from.

[Lord_Caerolion]

*sigh...*

 

The Carmine Blades... The perfect example of GW's mentality of "every Chapter must be a clone of their founder!" Maybe it's just the way it's written, but it's painful to read fluff that is essentially the Blood Angels coming along and saying "what's this? You don't name everything after blood? You dare to still call your apothecaries 'apothecaries'?!? This will not stand! You go to your fortress-monastery and pick a new blood-themed name and heraldry right now, young man! No purging heretics until you're done! And you'd better believe that I'll be inspecting your wargear to make sure it's appropriately blood-decorated!"

 

They're literally everything wrong with how successor Chapters should be handled. I hope it gets rewritten one day to be "well, the reason you have these insane brethren is because of our genetic heritage. Here's how we deal with it, I'd suggest you follow that too".

[Bryan Blaire]

I hope it gets rewritten one day to be "well, the reason you have these insane brethren is because of our genetic heritage. Here's how we deal with it, I'd suggest you follow that too".

I thought that was how it was written - now granted I haven’t read the 8th Ed BA Codex yet, so maybe it has a little different tone. I always thought that it was “But you are Blood Angels! Here’s why you are like that...” and it was the Carmine Blades that chose to alter their stuff to be more like the Blood Angels thinking that it would help them handle things better than they had been.

[Jackalwolf]

Make a nice looking army with awesome proxy units (black Templar zealots = wulfen for example) and I'll play against it happily.

[Jackalwolf]

With Ultramarines it may be easier blood angels. Some ideas:

 

- Sanguinary Guard = Suzerain

- Death Company = Either the censured seeking glory in death since honor in life is void or a destroyer cadre that has degraded to the point of loosing their minds due to rad weaponry

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I hope it gets rewritten one day to be "well, the reason you have these insane brethren is because of our genetic heritage. Here's how we deal with it, I'd suggest you follow that too".

I thought that was how it was written - now granted I haven’t read the 8th Ed BA Codex yet, so maybe it has a little different tone. I always thought that it was “But you are Blood Angels! Here’s why you are like that...” and it was the Carmine Blades that chose to alter their stuff to be more like the Blood Angels thinking that it would help them handle things better than they had been.

 

 

 

I hope it gets rewritten one day to be "well, the reason you have these insane brethren is because of our genetic heritage. Here's how we deal with it, I'd suggest you follow that too".

I thought that was how it was written - now granted I haven’t read the 8th Ed BA Codex yet, so maybe it has a little different tone. I always thought that it was “But you are Blood Angels! Here’s why you are like that...” and it was the Carmine Blades that chose to alter their stuff to be more like the Blood Angels thinking that it would help them handle things better than they had been.

 

 

"They accepted the Blood Angels traditions only grudgingly" makes it sound like it definitely wasn't an entirely willing decision, which wouldn't be the case if the Blood Angels came in and politely told them about what the truth was, and how to deal with it.

[Bryan Blaire]

"They accepted the Blood Angels traditions only grudgingly" makes it sound like it definitely wasn't an entirely willing decision, which wouldn't be the case if the Blood Angels came in and politely told them about what the truth was, and how to deal with it.

I think the 6th Edition/7th Edition expanded on that line better:

"Indeed, the Chapter were originally named the Swords of Haldroth after their feral recruiting world. They had long suffered from what they called the blood-curse, but hidden their Flaw from prying eyes for fear of Inquisitorial sanction. ... Their newly formed order of Sanguinary Priests still struggles to curb the worst excesses of the Chapter's inherited warrior culture. Ritual scarification and the flaying of captured foes are still widespread problems. Still the Carmine Blades have proved resilient and resourceful successors."

 

Those lines make it sound to me more like the Chapter was going off the rails, and while they didn't want to be discovered, they enjoyed the scarification and flaying of enemies, but hid it. Then Astorath came along and revealed their identity and gave them traditions that would allow them to curb these excesses - which they accepted grudgingly, because they liked those excesses enough that they are still widespread problems even after the Sanguinary Priests try to curb them.

 

So to me, yes, it sounds like the Blood Angels taught them about their heritage and how they need to sort themselves, conduct themselves, and probably about forming a Death Company, etc., and they did the whole "Oh all right!" of rebellious teenagers and are trying to make their way along the edge of everything. That would allow them to accept it willingly, but very grudgingly, because they don't want to be found out and destroyed, which the Blood Angels methods probably do more effectively than what they were doing before, but it's not as fun!

 

What I like about 40K is that both readings are equally plausible, so we just have to decide for ourselves or with our friends what the story we're playing will be, and our sandbox doesn't have to disturb anyone else's (or even GW's main meta-plot).

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'll agree that there is enough leeway that it could be taken either way, but it's still a little too on-the-nose for me, contributing to the idea that each geneseed line has "one tradition to rule them all" that each successor is expected to follow.

 

Either way, they're initially at least an example of how a successor Chapter can differ greatly enough from their own founder that they're mistaken for successors of another.