Make Power Armour and Bolters Great Again

[Kallas]

Honestly, I think recosting drop pods would be a better way to handle it. If they were 35 pts again, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, 10 man Marine squads would be dropping in and murdering Guardsmen left and right.

 

That does not fix anything, at all. Marine armies, as they are currently, as overcosted without Drop Pods, because Drop Pods are both horribly overcosted and pretty terrible rules-wise. Yes, points cost can alone make something viable - the Drop Pod as it currently is would need to be about 20pts to be worth half a damn considering all of its failings, which is a damn shame considering it's such an important piece of the Marine toolbox in the lore.

 

As for the second part of your post: no, it wouldn't prevent the conversation, because Drop Pods aren't the crux of the issue; and Marines wouldn't be dropping 10-man squads in to murder Guardsmen left and right, because Marines simply aren't that effective. They'd drop in, kill a few dudes and then melt. They'd also still be contending with one of the core issues of the Drop Pod, it's purely a points-to-deep-strike cost: it doesn't actually bring anything unique to the table; sure, it lets you Deep Strike any kind of unit, not just those with Jump Packs but...that's not worth that much, especially considering that:

 - You're paying a premium for it, regardless of the cargo (eg, 10 hot garbage Assault Marines costs the same to transport as 10 Sternguard)

 - You're still abiding by the same Deep Strike rules (>9", Turn 2+, limited by PL/unit count) which makes the Drop Pod basically pointless for melee units (as they're either fast with Jump Packs/Bikes) thanks to the 9" area denial. Simply, the Deep Strike rules hurt the viability of the Drop Pod simply because it doesn't actually provide anything of interest other than the ability to Deep Strike, and that is far too highly valued.

 - Units with Jump Packs are pretty much the ones you want to Deep Strike anyway. It's cheaper and more effective for units to take Jump Packs where available (AM pay 3ppm for their Jump Packs [which is ridiculous in and of itself] which is still cheaper than a 35pt DP which would work out to 3.5ppm and a reduction in their post-DS capabilities; notably being slower without the FLY keyword), and if a unit is a footslogger, you're almost certainly better off with a Rhino (at current cost absolutely: if DP were to drop to 35, eh, maybe but even so) as you still get to hide units; you can actually stay inside, which is important for keeping key units alive longer; you can swap units in and out more freely, and it increases the mobility of your army while its alive, whereas the DP is a one-and-done tool; and the Rhino can be used tactically for things like absorbing Overwatch, body blocking (better than a DP because it doesn't have to abide by the 9" denial area) - essentially, the Rhino is just so much more flexible. Even at a higher cost than a DP the Rhino brings so much more to the table. Which non-JP units want to deep strike (that can go in a DP)? Devastators for alpha strike protection/range improvement (with Grav Cannons)? Rhino helps with the alpha strike, moves them up in to position (ie, the unit can jump out T2, same as a DP; or they can jump out T1 if an enemy came in closer), keeps them mobile later in the game (ie, a DP gets them in close once; but the Rhino can keep picking them up and dropping them where they need to go) and, again, provides them with some additional protection (eg, it can charge a potentially troublesome unit that might want to charge them/could possibly block LOS to them, etc).

 - Drop Pods don't actually do anything of particular use. They're a one-use Deep Strike for a small selection of units. That's it. But Deep Striking isn't really that useful any longer. Oh, it certainly has value, but not every unit can use it particularly well - Deep Striking Guardsmen Infantry Squads have some advantage over non-DS Infantry Squads, but it's not a particularly effective use of those extra resources; DSing a unit of Sternguard has far more value than DSing a unit of Tacticals, as one is simply a stronger unit (ie, better weapons, better stats, not total potatoes in a fight). Honestly, Drop Pods could be a stratagem for 1CP instead of their current rules, it would be far better.

 

So coming back around, I'll summarise because that was a lot more rambling than I meant to write:

Drop Pods are not the core issue of Marines; a points drop for the DP would go a long way to helping the DP itself, but it wouldn't fix the core issues of Marines, and DPs would still be lacklustre even at 25pts!

 

Honestly, I think recosting drop pods would be a better way to handle it. If they were 35 pts again, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, 10 man Marine squads would be dropping in and murdering Guardsmen left and right.

 

[Ishagu]

Nothing would make the Drop Pod good. Inceptors are the best deepstriking impact unit Marines have. I can think of nothing better to put in a Pod

[Kallas]

Nothing would make the Drop Pod good. Inceptors are the best deepstriking impact unit Marines have. I can think of nothing better to put in a Pod

Kinda. Drop Pods should be redesigned: some kind of reduced denial zone, some kind of impact on the enemy when it deploys (Mortal Wounds, morale, something), and generally being more cost effective. It's not impossible to make it worthwhile; please don't make this into Primaris > Marines, that's not necessarily mutually exclusive and they're both in need of some improvements.

[Beams]

If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.

 

It would be similar to the sisters blitzkrieg that renders Guardsmen a waste of points.

 

Vannilla Marines are slightly overcosted, but not so much that they are worthless.

 

You could always run them as Space Wolves for their 2 attacks hititng on 2's in combat.

[Kallas]

If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.

If drop pods were cheaper, you could drop in say 50 Marines to turn one rapid fire and kill 40+ Guardsmen with shooting alone, not counting melee and morale losses, without even considering being shot beforehand.

[chapter master 454]

Another thing I didn't talk about but I think we should mention this minor detail...a minor detail. Boltguns did get nerfed as well due to how AP now works. As it stands, the conversion rate from old AP to new AP has outright removed the old version of AP 5 and 6 which was part of the reason marines could even mince guardsman as hard as we could with bolt fire. This means boltguns lack any real meaningful power to them.

 

However I will stand by that...funny enough this is weird...that the boltgun is fine. While maybe not amazing, as far as it goes it stands out as an excellent all rounder weapon. Yes, Tau have pulse rifles but they always had that but if we look at boltguns they stand as a fairly solid "average" weapon. Certainly can still wreck guardsman fairly easily all things considered, just we decided to let them have their armour save. Should the boltgun have some rule to it? Should this weapon be buffed? Meh, I don't think you can without some core issues being wide spread. I could possibly argue that there should be "astartes" pattern boltguns and "militarum" pattern boltguns but that is a minor detail (remember, the boltgun in lore fires Depleted Uranium High Explosive Gyrostabilised rounds. Boltguns must kick like a carnifex!).

Overall, I would say boltguns are fine. HOWEVER marines should have access to boltgun specific benefits like how guardsman have access to lasgun special benefits (FRFSRF) that aren't just stratagems, maybe even only for the old-startes who have had far more time to refine their doctrines with their guns.

 

Marines themselves...as it stands the codex just has a lot of things to answer for really. Still stand by that predators should outright ignore moving penalties to help drive the identity of a fast moving force that are marines.

[Panzer]

One thing Drop Pods can do is soaking up intercepting shots but yeah I too think they'd need something more regardless of their points cost.

[Vykes]

Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'?  IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved?  I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal. 

 

As for drop pods... ugh, those things.  At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault. 

[Azekai]

How and why is this in the homegrown rules section? We aren’t talking about house ruling stopgap measures, we are debating why marines feel totally unlike the fiction in 8th and how that could be addressed by GW.

[BlackTriton]

Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'? IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved? I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal.

 

As for drop pods... ugh, those things. At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault.

What is the goal of that change? It dosent fix anything, it would just makes boltguns cost more points.

Boltgun are already ok as a basic weapon.

It could be an interesting ability for tac marines, though.

[Dracos]

Boltguns ... another reason I prefer Primaris to standard Marines. Bolt Rifles do what Boltguns should. If you "fix" Boltguns, then what happens to Bolt Rifles? Ugh headache.

 

 

[Note: I'd been just as happy if they just true scaled remodeled the Marine line and gave all of them the Primaris stats ... but I live with what we have and move on]

[Beams]

Boltguns ... another reason I prefer Primaris to standard Marines. Bolt Rifles do what Boltguns should. If you "fix" Boltguns, then what happens to Bolt Rifles? Ugh headache.

 

 

[Note: I'd been just as happy if they just true scaled remodeled the Marine line and gave all of them the Primaris stats ... but I live with what we have and move on]

I see people suggest fixes all the time that are "Marines need 2 attacks base" or "Marines need an extra wound" or "make boltguns better, but only for Marines!" And it sounds a lot like Primaris Marines. I'm pretty sure GW listened, and fixed Marines.

[Kallas]

I see people suggest fixes all the time that are "Marines need 2 attacks base" or "Marines need an extra wound" or "make boltguns better, but only for Marines!" And it sounds a lot like Primaris Marines. I'm pretty sure GW listened, and fixed Marines.

 

Ah yes, that's why my Tactical Marines, Vanguard Veterans, etc all have 2A and 2W...

 

Oh...wait... 

[Vykes]

 

Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'? IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved? I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal.

 

As for drop pods... ugh, those things. At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault.

What is the goal of that change? It dosent fix anything, it would just makes boltguns cost more points.

Boltgun are already ok as a basic weapon.

It could be an interesting ability for tac marines, though.

 

Just spitballing ideas for tac/chaos marines is all.  Boltguns wouldn't cost more points as other units a la scouts and vets still have them and it wouldn't necessarily take effect.  On the other hand, it gives tacs something unique that they can do where they aren't such a tax anymore, and they really aren't worth the points they cost as is so the cost would be an ability cost not a weapon cost, it's just keyed to the humble boltgun. Boltguns... eeeeh, I'm not impressed since the AP5 ceased to be a thing and Guard and the like have an option to get an extra shot with theirs.  

 

It doesn't help assault marines, but they almost feel beyond saving unless they just turn them all into Veteran Vanguards. 

[Ishagu]

We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

 

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

 

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

[Azekai]

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

Basically this thread in a nutshell. Good summation.

[Vykes]

We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

 

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

 

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

 

I kinda figured we were always on topic, or so off topic that we're now in a different sub forum.  Dunno mate, make of that as you wish.  

 

Kinda being a defeatist there, ain'tcha? 

[Marshal_von_Speer]

Just as a thought exercise (and not exactly super fluffy, but something that does have precedent) what would be the thought on boltguns if they had the equivalency of 'Fury of the Legion'?  IE Rapid Fire 1 becomes Rapid Fire 2 so long as they haven't moved?  I mean, it doesn't help drop pods and other transported marines, but foot slogger tacs would have another tool in their arsenal. 

 

As for drop pods... ugh, those things.  At least the Dreadclaws can deepstrike and assault. 

I honestly am against any kind of modifier that promotes stationary play. I think it's thematic for armies like Imperial Guard but I understand the Adeptus Astartes as a highly dynamic, mobile and flexible force, which atm is not represented in their rules.

 

I'd prefer ap modifiers (wound roll of 6 equals ap -1 or the like) or maybe the assault key word.

[Panzer]

We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

 

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

 

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

 

Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

 

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.

[Beams]

 

 

We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

 

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

 

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

 

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.

So a marine is worth the same as a Sister of Battle?

[Panzer]

 

 

We shouldn't get off topic, but I'll say this: point adjustments are all we can hope for, at least for now.

 

GW will not change the rules because it will either invalidate things like Primaris, or scale badly with other things like DG, TS.

 

A marine costs more than 3 Guardsmen, but should cost less than 2.

Pretty much this. All those threads always end up with that realisation and then 10 more pages with random ideas going back and forth.

 

Tho I don't think they should cost less than 2 Guardsmen. I do think a Tactical Marine is worth more than a Fire warrior or a Skitarii and those cost 7ppm. I'd say a Tactical Marine is worth around 9ppm and a Scout 10ppm.

So a marine is worth the same as a Sister of Battle?

 

 

I honestly don't even include Sisters of Battle in any of my thought considering they don't even have a Codex and are getting a pretty extensive rework next year.

[Ishagu]

Sisters could be worth the same when they gain their chapter tactics equivalent, considering they already have acts of faith and an additional save mechanic.

[Beams]

Sisters could be worth the same when they gain their chapter tactics equivalent, considering they already have acts of faith and an additional save mechanic.

Acts of Faith effects one unit on the board, and the 6++ only procs if you hit them with a melta gun.

 

Marines have combat squads and as they shall know fear, so that's about at least even. And then they have +1ws, +1 Str, +1 toughness. They can't be 9 pts if sisters are 9 pts.

[BlackTriton]

maybe sisters should not be 9pts then.

 

 

Honestly, if tac and scout where both 11ppm I would be happy. they still would be a tax unit, but at least it would be a choice between the infiltrate and the +1 save.

as it is now its not even worth considering tac, +1 save is not worth much these days.

[Kallas]

Acts of Faith effects one unit on the board, the 6++ only procs if you hit them with a melta gun.

 

Marines have combat squads and as they shall know fear, so that's about at least even.

Combat Squads is more worthless than Shield of Faith. It might only work vs AP-4, but it's something; and it might be a crap deny, but it's a roll one wouldn't otherwise get to make. ATSKNF is barely useful, because big squads are 99% of the time a bad idea, which in turn makes Combat Squads irrelevant.

 

And then they have +1ws, +1 Str, +1 toughness. They can't be 9 pts if sisters are 9 pts.

Acts of Faith are incredibly potent, and I think you give far too little credit to them. For starters, it's an incredibly flexible rule, letting one choose between any of their units and either mobility, additional firepower or some healing.

 

The mobility act is excellent, as it can make an enormous difference to game where your ObSec units are, as well as for Deep Strike denial, etc. It also gives more teeth to the close ranged guns like Meltas and Flamers by getting them into range much more quickly. It further synergises with transports and already fast units.

 

For the additional firepower, that bonus cannot be understated. Sisters shoot just as well as Marines, with the same guns (albeit with different options). They're not as potent in melee, but Marines already hit like a deflated balloon - Anything less than a Captain is probably either a melee specialist unit (Vanguard. DC, etc) or a potato when it comes to melee (Tacticals, Assault Marines, etc). Even so, Sisters can double up their attacks if they so choose (it might finish the unit engaging them, allowing them to move and fire later in the turn) - again, flexibility, which isn't paid through the nose for.

 

The additional WS/S is certainly good but I genuinely think it's overpriced for a lot of the Marine line: Tacticals and Devastators don't want to be in melee, and while they can outfit a wet paper bag, if a dry one comes along they're screwed. Assault Marines are supposed to be our standard melee unit: they are unbelievably terrible, and are afraid of every kind of bag, even wet ones. Point being that Marines pay a lot for their general purpose statlines but aren't able to realistically leverage it as they're simply not potent enough: 1 WS3+/S4 attack is utterly laughable. 2 is barely any better for the melee only units like Assaults and Vanguard.

 

So +1 Toughness is actually fine, hurray! There's an insane amount of cheap Marine-killing weapons in the game, but that's because bloat and because Marines are numerous.

 

Honestly, considering the state of Codex: SM and basic Marines in general, they definitely could be 9pts the same as Sisters.