Why are techmarines not in the AdMech Codex

[LT_CLAWS]

I've been thinking a lot lately about why techmarines, in some capacity, are not a unit option in our codex. I know fluff wise they train on mars for years before returning to their chapters. There would be a lot of options if you could run a techmarine adept or trainee. Engineseers are included in our list and can even fix Guard vehicles. So why not techmarines? You could even have different traits depending on their chapter i.e. Iron Priests or Forge Fathers. Thoughts?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not sure, on the one hand they're presumably there mainly to be indoctrinated into the cult mechanicus study technology, we're talking about the premier fighting warriors of the Imperium so a little hands on study of how the mechanicum wages war wouldn't be out of place? On the other hand, maybe its a matter of the mechancius just not having the authority to mobilize them onto the field.. 

 

I could see it going either way. Would be kind a cool to see multi chapter techmarine units for instance.

[LT_CLAWS]

Not sure, on the one hand they're presumably there mainly to be indoctrinated into the cult mechanicus study technology, we're talking about the premier fighting warriors of the Imperium so a little hands on study of how the mechanicum wages war wouldn't be out of place? On the other hand, maybe its a matter of the mechancius just not having the authority to mobilize them onto the field.. 

 

I could see it going either way. Would be kind a cool to see multi chapter techmarine units for instance.

 

True, moving about someone in power armor and their gear is very different than a lil ol skitarii ranger. Logistics get everyone at one point!

[Marshal Reinhard]

Well I wasn't really thinking about the logistics of it, rather that noone in the mechanicus can presumably order the techmarines to go to war on their behalf

[LT_CLAWS]

Well I wasn't really thinking about the logistics of it, rather that noone in the mechanicus can presumably order the techmarines to go to war on their behalf

 

Also very true! Didn't even think about that.

[Xisor]

I definitely don't think it's because "it doesn't happen". (Don't get us started on 'Wait a minute, where are all the vehicles and transports?')

 

So, taking 'of course they'd be used by the Ad Mech!' as an absolute given, the question is:

1- What would it add to the list? (E.g. a niche? What would it compete with?)

2- As-is, or something new?

 

2's easier than 1, in my esteem: Would anyone object to fielding Techmarines and Thunderfire Cannons in an Ad Mech list? Well, they might. But IMHO, they shouldn't.

 

And for adding to the list? Something that's a mid-price HQ unit that's a bit more 'DPS' a bit less 'Tank/Healer'.

 

And Thunderfire Cannons.

 

----

 

My recommendation for rationalising their inclusion is:

1- Delivery of TMs back to Chapters, or field testing.

2- Get some four-wound 'junior' Techmarines, limited to axe/Bolt Pistol/servo-arm working as servitor-/vehicle-herders.

3- Get more interesting servitors in too.

 

----

 

Practically, today, I'd hugely recommend doing an armoured spearhead with Techmarines. E.g. vanguard-y/outridery/whatever-the-HS-one-is forces of HQTechmarine+Vehicles, or HQTechmarine+Thunderfire cannons.

 

I've been aching to do the following for a good wee while, consisting of a force of:

1 HQ Techmarine

1 Servitors

1 Razorback

1 Predator

1 Vindicator

1 Whirlwind

 

And just have that running in 'Boltgun Metal' colours alongside a proper Ad Mech force, as if it's the Techmarine being evaluated in overseeing the live-firing field-test of the weapons, y'know? I think it'd be a lot of fun.

[LT_CLAWS]

I definitely don't think it's because "it doesn't happen". (Don't get us started on 'Wait a minute, where are all the vehicles and transports?')

 

So, taking 'of course they'd be used by the Ad Mech!' as an absolute given, the question is:

1- What would it add to the list? (E.g. a niche? What would it compete with?)

2- As-is, or something new?

 

2's easier than 1, in my esteem: Would anyone object to fielding Techmarines and Thunderfire Cannons in an Ad Mech list? Well, they might. But IMHO, they shouldn't.

 

And for adding to the list? Something that's a mid-price HQ unit that's a bit more 'DPS' a bit less 'Tank/Healer'.

 

And Thunderfire Cannons.

 

----

 

My recommendation for rationalising their inclusion is:

1- Delivery of TMs back to Chapters, or field testing.

2- Get some four-wound 'junior' Techmarines, limited to axe/Bolt Pistol/servo-arm working as servitor-/vehicle-herders.

3- Get more interesting servitors in too.

 

----

 

Practically, today, I'd hugely recommend doing an armoured spearhead with Techmarines. E.g. vanguard-y/outridery/whatever-the-HS-one-is forces of HQTechmarine+Vehicles, or HQTechmarine+Thunderfire cannons.

 

I've been aching to do the following for a good wee while, consisting of a force of:

1 HQ Techmarine

1 Servitors

1 Razorback

1 Predator

1 Vindicator

1 Whirlwind

 

And just have that running in 'Boltgun Metal' colours alongside a proper Ad Mech force, as if it's the Techmarine being evaluated in overseeing the live-firing field-test of the weapons, y'know? I think it'd be a lot of fun.

 

I guess they wouldn't get canticles anyways so why not just run a SM detachment. If we had some decent servitors that would really help.

[Magos Takatus]

 

I could see it going either way. Would be kind a cool to see multi chapter techmarine units for instance.

The mental image of a Deathwatch-style squad of techmarines seems incredibly compelling to me. :D

[LT_CLAWS]

 

 

I could see it going either way. Would be kind a cool to see multi chapter techmarine units for instance.

The mental image of a Deathwatch-style squad of techmarines seems incredibly compelling to me.

 

 

Right? Squad size of like 3-4. Maybe an Iron Priest, Blood Angels TM, and a super augmented iron hands TM hacking and slashing their way down the battlefield. 

[brother_b]

On servitors, I always wished they would have 2 wounds and a bodyguard ability for the tech priest. I love the models but they're just so meh right now.

[Battybattybats]

While the cover is misleading for the events of the book, the cover art of the novel Cybernetica does give us that deathwatch-like band of techmarines of different chapters fighting as a unit depiction.

 

It's definitely something that as a story focused gamer I'd love to see on the table.

 

With the events of the Heresy and the events of recent 40k for half the Imperium both involve the normal practice of training on Mars becoming impossible. As such during the Heresy and for isolated chapters cut off by the cicatrix maledictum training with the nearest loyal Forgeworld would become necessary to maintain numbers of techmarines.

[Xisor]

Given that the Deathwatch rules have some fancy... toys, running a few units of Deathwatch all "techmarined up" would be pretty cool. They just don't use the servo-arms because it's a... theoretical class?... studying an assignment of vengeance rounds and Infernus Heavy Bolters and Xenophase Blades and Corvus Blackstars and Heavy Thunder Hammers...

 

:D

[Ammonius]

Given that the Deathwatch rules have some fancy... toys, running a few units of Deathwatch all "techmarined up" would be pretty cool. They just don't use the servo-arms because it's a... theoretical class?... studying an assignment of vengeance rounds and Infernus Heavy Bolters and Xenophase Blades and Corvus Blackstars and Heavy Thunder Hammers...

 

I'd read that story :)

[Charlo]

I'd rather just have more varied kinds of Tech Priests...!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Definitely agree with Charlo about more sorts of tech-priests.

 

As for why they aren't there, as others have said, it's because of the dual loyalties. The Techpriests are only studying there because of the ancient pacts between the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. Their loyalties are primarily to their Chapter, and as such they remain somewhat isolated from the rest of the Cult. They won't get brought along on "Mechanicus business", because they're not in the "need to know" category. They're just not trusted enough.

Enginseers, on the other hand, may be in the Imperial Guard codex, but they're still seconded troops, whose loyalty lies first and foremost with the Mechanicus, rather than to whatever regiment they've been assigned to.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Without reading everything written here:

I don't know what a Tech Marine would bring us gaming wise, so I never missed him, regardless whether it would make sense or not from a fluff perspective.

 

It is more like Charlo says: Give me a Magos Reductor - for example -  I can kit out with a lot of fancy weapons, so that he is killy in shooting or in melee. That would make me way more happy than another kind of support charakter.

[jeffersonian000]

Pretty sure what AdMech fields as a fighting force are purpose built for that function, and only represents a small fraction of their overall population. As all Techmarines are trained on Mars, and no one assaults Mars, there would be no reason for a support Astartes to fight alongside an AdMech military Clade as part of their training. And yet you still can take a Techmarine with your AfMech at the cost is of 1 CP.

 

SJ

[Battybattybats]

No-one assaults Mars, except of course its several civil wars (yes several, not just the Heresy!) and that time the Necron attacked and landed forces.

 

And with the Cicatrix Maledictum there's been a century with many chapters not being able to get that training done on Mars.

 

We know from the story Cybernetica that it takes 30 years of study on Mars to become a techmarine. So a century of disruption is pretty significant.

 

There would also be the marines already in training on Mars when the storms cut off half the galaxy.

[Black Knight]

It comes down to the fact of why do you need a tech marine? Usually its because it is a Space Marine, super human. The problem is the AM consider flesh inferior to simply replacing body parts with augments. No point having to run a Marine Monestry to build the basic space marine when you can simply pull them from any human world and upgrade them with machine parts to a standard the same, if not higher, than a tech marine. This takes a few days rather than the many years and training it takes to create a space marine. Also Space marines are indoctrinated to serve their Chapter and ultimately their Gene Father and the Emperor, so AM do not want to have to undo all that and then redo it towards the machine god.

 

We have cheaper, easier to "Aquire" and easier to indoctrinate assets. All Tech Adepts, at whatever stage in their "Career", are devoted to the Machine God. Tech-Marines are still space marines, just with an affinity for tech and would without a second thought put a bolt round thought a Tech-Priest Dominus if they did anything Heretical. 

 

And oh my does the AM do Heretical things!

 

AM interact with Marines as little as possible, doing their duty, but that's it, as knowledge is theirs and theirs alone. Lets not mention the feuds with certain tank designs that the AM demanded and certain chapters said ":cuss off". Also in the book Hellsreach a Tech-Marine disobeys the AM after an order from his Chaplain.

[Battybattybats]

Why do we need a Techmarine?

Cause its in the lore, that is sufficient justification.

 

Sure the parts of the Mechanicus that are insular won't want anything to do with them, that's also part of the lore. It's mentioned in Cybernetica. Still techmarines get trained on Mars up till the heresy and then presumably for the 9k years after it up till the Cicatrix Maledictum and for half the Imperium presumably continuing right through the indomitas crusade.

 

Techmarines have divided and potentially conflicting loyalty sure, that too has been part of the lore for ages I think it was in second edition that it was first said they were viewed with suspicion by other marines because of it, and of course the Mechanicus would see things the same way. Concern over which side they would take, Chapter or Mechanicus, has been an element at least mentioned in multiple books like Helsreach and The Death of Integrity. But that's not a reason not to have them, it's a reason to have them for narrative fluff-driven gamers.

 

Lets perhaps explore more of what we know for certain, and what we can surmise.

 

Firstly, other than codex entries is there any source of description of Techmarine training other than Cybernetica? It gives quite a significant amount but is from the way things were before the Death of Innocence. If a novel or story I've not yet read gives details during the other epochs that would help a great deal.

 

We know that almost all chapters Techmarines after the heresy train on Mars.

 

We know that in Imperium Nihilis for much of the time that's not possible. And we can surmise that during the isolation period Chapters would have to decide to either suffer attrition of techmarines or break with the tradition and either have existing techmarines of the chapter do that training or what Magi they have access to, which could well mean a number of Forgeworlds have to decide also between the tradition of that training being up to Mars and keeping the local Astartes happy.

 

How much combat if any a trainee would usually see is another matter. But there's plenty of opportunities for it to occur even if most never see any, with a number of conflicts on Mars that might embroil the trainees and the Artisan Astartes (assuming they still exist post-heresy) as well as all manner of conflicts in Imperium Nihilis for any that might train on close-by Forgeworlds instead of Mars.

 

All this is excellent fodder for narrative gaming, whether it's adding a bit of Astartes to a Mechanicus army to represent Artisan Astartes and Trainees getting some field repairs experience, the inspiration for a Kill-team with some counts-as aspects or the basis of an RPG campaign.

[Beren]

Space Marines are supposed to be rather rare. Tech Marines are rarer still. I doubt that Space Marine Chapters are going to be happy about the Mechanicus getting their Techmarines killed in combat before they can be sent back, especially when Tech Marines are the only high grade tech experts for the Chapters and the Mechanicus has more than enough. Tech marines are made for the Astarte's, they won't be fighting on their own with the Mechanicus unless they're attacked directly.

[Subtle Discord]

Damn it, this discussion is making me want to just do it! True to the cannon or not, 3-5 Tech Marines from different chapters surrounded by Mechanicus allies just sounds like an awesome image. Damn the mixed (dark) blessing of these boards; stop giving me more ideas! ... Please don't stop.

 

Micro-Ordinatus first, then maybe something like this as a slow burn project to provide time to find and create the right bits.

 

[LT_CLAWS]

Damn it, this discussion is making me want to just do it! True to the cannon or not, 3-5 Tech Marines from different chapters surrounded by Mechanicus allies just sounds like an awesome image. Damn the mixed (dark) blessing of these boards; stop giving me more ideas! ... Please don't stop.

 

Micro-Ordinatus first, then maybe something like this as a slow burn project to provide time to find and create the right bits.

 

Same, I've already decided to make an allied detachment of techmarines and a thunderfire cannon

[Xisor]

Space Marines are supposed to be rather rare. Tech Marines are rarer still. I doubt that Space Marine Chapters are going to be happy about the Mechanicus getting their Techmarines killed in combat before they can be sent back, especially when Tech Marines are the only high grade tech experts for the Chapters and the Mechanicus has more than enough. Tech marines are made for the Astarte's, they won't be fighting on their own with the Mechanicus unless they're attacked directly.

Okay, what if you've not got an Enginseer or a Dominum to hand? They all been assassinated. Or they ate bad f15h. But you *do* have a Techmarine.

 

You still won't field them?

 

You'll send your troops out without an HQ?

[Vash113]

Well I think the simple reason is they aren't there to be fielded by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Techmarine aspirants go to Mars to train and Mars alone, they do not go out on assignments until their training is finished and they return to their chapter, before then they are not yet fully Techmarines and lack the skills and equipment to take to battle as such.

Really the only time I could see Techmarines having finished their training and potentially traveling alongside forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus would be on their return trip to their chapters after finishing their training. Maybe if they come under attack during that single voyage they would find themselves fighting alongside Skitarii and Kataphrons and the like, otherwise there just is not really a good reason for a lone Techmarine of any chapter to just be hanging out with some peeps from Ryza or something.

Besides, how much does even the Mechanicus trust Techmarines? After all they are not sworn solely to the Omnissiah but also to their chapter and whatever cult and beliefs that chapter holds. Techmarines hold an odd position of being sworn to two creeds and two masters and fully trusted by neither.