Think Tank: Hypothesizing SW Unit Combo's, Options, Etc.

[Kallas]

Definitely email GW. It's a pretty simple fix for the FAQ to cover, so even at the last moment they should be able to slot if into the FAQ pdf.

[Karack Blackstone]

Definitely email GW. It's a pretty simple fix for the FAQ to cover, so even at the last moment they should be able to slot if into the FAQ pdf.

 

Done.

 

Emailed to custserv@gwplc.com  as well as 40KFAQ@gwplc.com which is the actual and official FAQ email to send questions to, for future reference.

 

Also posted on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook Page.

 

Still, seems an odd oversight. Ah well, things happen; I just don't have to like that it did happen...

 

Anyway, please return to the regularly scheduled thread topic: what badassness of the Codex: Space Wolves entry combinations have you found? And, do please share!

[Jackalwolf]

Njal, Arjac and Bjorn having a picnic together.

[Armchairarbiter]

I am sure that someone has covered this in the thread already... maybe... but it's 14 pages long now so thought I would post this anyway. It is a new idea to me. Seemed pretty viable. 

 

So I happened to stumble onto a Veterans of the Longwar podast.. think I got that name right. Anyway, they were talking about a brutal Rune Priest configuration and it having a potential 20 attacks. It sounded very viable. 

 

You take a RP with JP, give him the melee psychic power, give him the wulfen stone relic. Make him warlord and give him beast slayer/hunter whatever it is. With the strategem to attack twice, that's 20 attacks. If he dies that's another 10 to 20. They said 20 but I am not sure why it would be another 20 if he dies and uses the last hero strat. 

 

They mentioned some other strats too, like the reroll to wound and such. It is a huge CP sink but it sounded hilarious. I ran some basic math and with some rerolls you can do like, 12 wounds to Morty with that first salvo with the D3 damage. 

[Karack Blackstone]

 

I am sure that someone has covered this in the thread already... maybe... but it's 14 pages long now so thought I would post this anyway. It is a new idea to me. Seemed pretty viable. 

 

So I happened to stumble onto a Veterans of the Longwar podast.. think I got that name right. Anyway, they were talking about a brutal Rune Priest configuration and it having a potential 20 attacks. It sounded very viable. 

 

You take a RP with JP, give him the melee psychic power, give him the wulfen stone relic. Make him warlord and give him beast slayer/hunter whatever it is. With the strategem to attack twice, that's 20 attacks. If he dies that's another 10 to 20. They said 20 but I am not sure why it would be another 20 if he dies and uses the last hero strat. 

 

They mentioned some other strats too, like the reroll to wound and such. It is a huge CP sink but it sounded hilarious. I ran some basic math and with some rerolls you can do like, 12 wounds to Morty with that first salvo with the D3 damage. 

 

 

While yes, it was covered, corroboration never hurts to see another either get to the same solution on their own, or post what they read from another, and then verified themselves.

 

Either way, that RP monstrosity is going to utterly shred a great deal of the enemy's forces if he lives long enough. While you might need at least a Battalion or two, maybe three, to feed him CP's to attack so much, don't forget that due to the game right now, a simple, humble RP kit out right can possibly threaten Mortarion in one turn, realistically two, and, if he dies in the first after attacking, he's still going to swing again outside of the Psychic Phase, if the player has enough CP's to spend.

 

This RP is pretty solidly terrifying in his own right; if you really want to piss someone off, consider adding a pack of WG with JP's to escort him around. That'll certainly cause a problem!

 

Hypothetical Unit stack:

 

RP of sillyness, with Warlord, JP, Wulfen Stone, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Saga of the Hunter/Beast Slayer (The melee blender one)

WG Pack with JP's, 5 to 10, and weapons vary; what do you intend to do with them? Such as, Chainswords (CS's) for more attack dice, but you won't have high AP -'s, or, maybe Frost Axes? You could also consider a great many Storm Shields and use default Chainswords to keep them cheap and treat the pack as ablative wounds for the RP

 

Options:

WP with JP, as this might allow you to have a pocket PF (heh), that can be moved around and truly shred the enemy or tie up the heavy hitting models that try to bog down the RP

WGBL with JP, allows rerolls of 1 to wound; as this is both shooting and melee, maybe keep a few BP's and favor a wall of SS's to help escort the RP in by the WG with JP's unit.

WL with JP, a melee beatstick of this caliber might be a little too high a threat on its own. Just by having the RP be your Warlord and the WL not, you are forcing target priority.

 

All in all, I would wonder, what weapon is the RP going to have?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

I'm going to have to email GW about the problem just to ensure that the problem is known. I love the idea of 15 SkyClaws charging into the enemy, frothing at the mouth, rending the enemy like a wolf striking after a leap, with the bite strength of a shark.

 

Still, this seems... odd? I get that the Codex had a flaw that was known, the extra page. I just wonder why this one slipped through as well.

 

This came up last week in another thread (may have even been earlier in this one). Basically, both the Swiftclaws and Skyclaws are messed up at the end of the book. Each of them can have up to fifteen in the unit, as befitting Blood Claw packs, but for some reason whoever was doing the points tables capped them at 10 for the Skyclaws and 9 for the Swiftclaws.

 

I know the poster who brought that up emailed the GW FAQ account as well and I remember it being mentioned as early as some of the Codex reviews that came out the week prior to release. So hopefully they've heard it early and often enough to make sure it gets changed in the Codex FAQ.

 

This may be a case of "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing." The Swiftclaws and SkyClaws datasheets in the index both capped them at 10, with the option of a Wolf Guard Leader being added on. So the person who updated the datasheets for the Codex to allow for unit size up to 15 may not have been the same one who updated the points values.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

I'm going to have to email GW about the problem just to ensure that the problem is known. I love the idea of 15 SkyClaws charging into the enemy, frothing at the mouth, rending the enemy like a wolf striking after a leap, with the bite strength of a shark.

 

Still, this seems... odd? I get that the Codex had a flaw that was known, the extra page. I just wonder why this one slipped through as well.

 

This came up last week in another thread (may have even been earlier in this one). Basically, both the Swiftclaws and Skyclaws are messed up at the end of the book. Each of them can have up to fifteen in the unit, as befitting Blood Claw packs, but for some reason whoever was doing the points tables capped them at 10 for the Skyclaws and 9 for the Swiftclaws.

 

I know the poster who brought that up emailed the GW FAQ account as well and I remember it being mentioned as early as some of the Codex reviews that came out the week prior to release. So hopefully they've heard it early and often enough to make sure it gets changed in the Codex FAQ.

 

This may be a case of "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing." The Swiftclaws and SkyClaws datasheets in the index both capped them at 10, with the option of a Wolf Guard Leader being added on. So the person who updated the datasheets for the Codex to allow for unit size up to 15 may not have been the same one who updated the points values.

 

 

Considering there's no true knowledge of context as to how a full book of the Codex level worth of content is pulled together, as long as this issue is fixed via the FAQ, I'm fine.

 

And if it is seen often enough and importantly enough, by all means, just fix it; I just don't have to like that it happened twice now. Then again, if they iterate on a book to improve it after the thing was sent to the printers, by all means, I find this annoying yet acceptable.

 

I just hope that, going forward, GW can minimize this issue arising again in the future. I love the Wolves, and the option to have up to 15 Sky or Swift Claws tearing it up, terrifies me. Just, in both a good and bad way; the problem with C/SM's in general in 8th is that their Morale phase dice shenanigans are not strong enough. I just hope the CA 2018 fixes this issue.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

After a little more checking of the Codex, it looks to me like there's another error/omission, but since I'm still pretty new to this stuff I figured I'd run it past you guys first. If it IS legitimately an error, I'll go ahead and email the FAQ team although I'm sure I'm not the first one to notice it.

 

Basically, as it stands in the Codex, the new Wolf Scout Biker squad does not have the option of adding a Wolf Guard Leader to the unit. Does this make sense to anyone? Obviously the (on foot) Wolf Scouts have the option of adding a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and the Swiftclaws can add a Wolf Guard Bike Leader, so... why shouldn't the Wolf Scout Bikers have that option as well? In fact, aside from wolves and Wulfen, the only other non-Primaris squad unit that doesn't have the option of adding an auxiliary Wolf Guard Leader to the mix is the Swiftclaw Attack BIkes. That at least makes some sense as a "unit" of Swiftclaw Attack Bikes can be as little as one and a "full-strength" Attack Bike squad is only three. But Wolf Scout Bikers start at three and can go up to nine. And regular Swiftclaws also start at three and can add a Wolf Guard Bike Leader at any point.

 

Any thoughts? Or was there already a discussion on this that I missed?

[UniWolf]

Question about wolfed stone and saga of wolfskin, do they give an extra attack to both rider of thunderwolf and the thunderwolf? 

 

[Shas Oh Dear]

No, unfortunately the thunderwolf and rider are a single model. The attacks from the Wolf are treated like a weapon eg chainsword extra attack and thus unaffected.

[Karack Blackstone]

So, Big FAQ 2 2018 came through.

 

5 to 15 Skyclaws, lovely.

5 to 16 Swiftclaws, juicy and tasty. I can only think of what you bike happy flankers and outrider minded Wolves players have come up with given the sheer threat and ferocity this size of a pack before a WGPL with the Swiftclaws can do! That's 17 bikes without an HQ!

 

Here's a hypothetical starting point for a large, yet threatening (I hope) Swiftclaw pack:

15 Swiftclaws, Chainswords or Bolt Pistols (this seems a hard call, as I don't recall that the 'Claws here can get both, unless I missed something in the B-FAQ 2)

1 Swiftclaw Pack Leader, ?

1 WGPL, Chainsword, BP?

1 WGBL, SM Bike, Chainsword, maybe a Combi- of some type? Or, a stock BP?

1 WP stock, or, pocket PF, SM Bike

1 WL, SM Bike, wargear to taste

 

That's 20 bikes threatening somewhere. Yes, it's likely not cheap; however, with a small-ish or better balanced list having Wulfen nearby and kept in support of each other, making sure the Wulfen have mostly TH/SS weapons, you will be rerolling charges on the first turn, and every turn you're stuck in after the charge, you might as well have charged again!

 

49 dice base just from the Swiftclaws, add 2/3 from the WGPL, and 3/4 from the WGBL, and then 3 from the WP, and 4 from the WL. That's what, 61 dice? Yea, fear that pack...

[TiguriusX]

problem with the swift claws is BS4 and no boltgun to go all in during shooting

wolf guard bikers were amazing (technically still legal since index is permitted)

codex closest is jump wg with storm bolters for slightly higher cost than swiftclaws but similar role and more options if you have the points (storm shields or melee specialists)

 

*edit*

Actually I take it back

 

You can get similar dakka and use cunning of the wolf with AGGRESSORS if you are ok with Primaris

MSU Aggressors are 18 + 3D6 shots out to 18" at BS3 and have the same T5 profile as a biker

 

I'd say Aggressors are your alternative to swift claws instead of WG

You trade points and mobility to get superior shooting (remember special rule lets Aggressors double tap if they don't move)

Aggressors can ALSO join a melee combat and provide power fists

I personally run Saga of the Hunter so Aggressors in my army near an activated Warlord can advance fire and charge (I have been number crunching Aggressors recently and am going to grab a squad to field test)

[UniWolf]

I will put my had up and say aggressors are amazing! fair enough I play against orks and dark eldar so the S4 isn't an issue. also the opposition didn't realise that they had power fist (equivalent) so the war boss and weird boy just got squashed

 

[TiguriusX]

I'm predicting meta shift to hordes and adjusting my competitive armies in advance

[Karack Blackstone]

 

I will put my had up and say aggressors are amazing! fair enough I play against orks and dark eldar so the S4 isn't an issue. also the opposition didn't realise that they had power fist (equivalent) so the war boss and weird boy just got squashed

 

 

 

I'm predicting meta shift to hordes and adjusting my competitive armies in advance

 

How do you arm your packs in light of this thought?

 

Each of the following is helpful to discuss, just as you wish to type out how you're thinking right now.

- Grey Hunters

- Blood Claws

- Intercessors

- Long Fangs

- Hellblasters

- Wolf Scouts (I so wish they were actually useful these days)

- Wolf Guard PA

- WG TDA

- Wulfen

- Swiftclaws

- Skyclaws

 

I don't expect an entry on each one, but it wouldn't hurt if you're willing to type up details.

 

This is more towards the point of the thread. If hordes become the new norm, lists changing to fight such a mass of enemy infantry needs to be at least considered.

[Kallas]

 

I'm predicting meta shift to hordes and adjusting my competitive armies in advance

 

How do you arm your packs in light of this thought?

 

Each of the following is helpful to discuss, just as you wish to type out how you're thinking right now.

- Grey Hunters

- Blood Claws

- Intercessors

- Long Fangs

- Hellblasters

- Wolf Scouts (I so wish they were actually useful these days)

- Wolf Guard PA

- WG TDA

- Wulfen

- Swiftclaws

- Skyclaws

I think Tigurius is probably right: Orks are going to be a big deal, especially if we see some serious changes in their Codex (points drops, probably not for Boyz, but elsewhere which wil still positively impact mobs of Boyz; and decent rules which will make their Boy hordes even stronger).

 

For myself:

• Grey Hunters: Basic. Bolter and Chainsword, nothing else. Special weapons are expensive on our troops, and I think over-equipping units is a mistake. In my experience, a basic unit of GH flies under most threat radars, but they will shred T3/5-6+ hordes, and their volume of attacks and reasonable resilience will help against tougher hordes like Orks. (Statistically, getting to Rapid Fire/Charge against Boyz with a 6+++: they'll kill 2.3 at range; and 6 more in melee; for 8 total without Wolf Lord/Battle Leader rerolls; 8 Orks is 48pts, currently, so it's not too far off being a reasonable trade. If they get a turn of long range first, then that's another 1 for 54pts total)
• Long Fangs: Heavy Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Bolters. With their built in rr1tH buff, five Heavy Bolter Long Fangs are reliably hitting with 11.5 shots, which will kill an average of 6.3 of those Boyz; add in The Wolf's Eye to reroll wounds, and that goes up to 8; all at up to 36" with possibly no penalty to hit (if you move, and/or if they get a -1 to hit modifier from somewhere in their Codex). Against weaker enemies like Guardsmen or Cultists, they'll be shredding a bunch each turn. And 5 Heavy Bolter Long Fangs only costs 134pts, which is not too bad.
• Wulfen: I think their best worth is in smashing vehicles/hard targets in melee, so sticking to TH/SS will probably be the best bet there. They're still going to be killing hordes with pretty much every attack, so they could be thrown into hordes in concert with other units to help batter them down.
• Wolf Guard/TDA: I think these should be the ones equipped to bring down hordes instead of Wulfen (mostly because the Wulfen Death Frenzy lets them double down against those harder targets with more attacks too). A regular WG with Frost Claws and a nearby Wolf Lord with Saga of the Wolfkin and/or The Wulfen Stone will be making 5 attacks each, hitting on 2s rr1tH, wounding on 3s rrAlltW. A full 10 (costing 300pts) is putting out 51 attacks; that's killing 36 Boyz (with a 6+++)! If they multi-charged two mobs, then they could potentially kill both (preferably one locked down by the Armour of Russ; or with clever charge/pile in/consolidate - move close to the other mob, consolidate nearer but not within 1"; then pop Honour The Chapter to pile in and kill another 36!) Hmm, that sounds amazing actually. Throw on some Jump Packs, or use Cunning of the Wolf, to Deep Strike/Outflank, and they'll be safe until they arrive. Alternatively, you could go all in and give them a Land Raider Crusader to transport the whole lot plus bringing a bunch of decent firepower in a reasonably tough, if overcosted, platform! Going to have to build that list now...
• TDA Wolf Guard: Similar to the above but much more resilient. A cheaper squad of five could be worthwhile, as they can also pack (thanks to the FAQ for clarifying!) Cyclone Missile Launchers (way too expensive, but still) to provide a little bit of long ranged anti-tank punch (as the Frag Cyclone isn't worth much of a damn). With their 2+ base save, and a possible Storm Caller casting nearby, they'd be reasonably tough against shooting, and you could always throw in a Storm Shield to supplement their survivability.
• Swift/Skyclaws: A budget version of the Wolf Guard, although not actually much cheaper (16 Skyclaws with BP+CS is 259pts vs the JP Frost Claw WG costing 330), but they do get more attacks, albeit at lower STR/AP (Skyclaws with those same buffs would get 77 S4/AP0 attacks; the FCWG get 51 S5 rrW/AP-2). Comparably, the Skyclaws kill an average of 26 Ork Boyz: proportionally, thats: 78% of the cost of the FCWG for 72% of the kills, but with 60% more wounds, so it would depend on what your priorities are, I suppose - do you want your unit to be more resilient but less killy; or more killy but easier to kill.

That's all I've got: not really thought about the other units much, so I'll hold off on them (not that I've played all of the above units, but have thought about them).

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

So, Big FAQ 2 2018 came through.

 

5 to 15 Skyclaws, lovely.

5 to 16 Swiftclaws, juicy and tasty. I can only think of what you bike happy flankers and outrider minded Wolves players have come up with given the sheer threat and ferocity this size of a pack before a WGPL with the Swiftclaws can do! That's 17 bikes without an HQ!

 

Here's a hypothetical starting point for a large, yet threatening (I hope) Swiftclaw pack:

15 Swiftclaws, Chainswords or Bolt Pistols (this seems a hard call, as I don't recall that the 'Claws here can get both, unless I missed something in the B-FAQ 2)

1 Swiftclaw Pack Leader, ?

1 WGPL, Chainsword, BP?

1 WGBL, SM Bike, Chainsword, maybe a Combi- of some type? Or, a stock BP?

1 WP stock, or, pocket PF, SM Bike

1 WL, SM Bike, wargear to taste

 

That's 20 bikes threatening somewhere. Yes, it's likely not cheap; however, with a small-ish or better balanced list having Wulfen nearby and kept in support of each other, making sure the Wulfen have mostly TH/SS weapons, you will be rerolling charges on the first turn, and every turn you're stuck in after the charge, you might as well have charged again!

 

49 dice base just from the Swiftclaws, add 2/3 from the WGPL, and 3/4 from the WGBL, and then 3 from the WP, and 4 from the WL. That's what, 61 dice? Yea, fear that pack...

 

On the weapons front, you are correct that normal Swiftclaws cannot take both Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. They only have the option of replacing their Bolt Pistol with a Chainsword.

 

But don't forget that *one* of the Swiftclaws (or the Pack Leader) may elect to replace its Bolt Pistol instead with either a Plasma Pistol or an item from the Special Weapons list (Flamer, Plasma Gun, Meltagun).

 

The regular Pack Leader can also choose to take a power weapon (axe / fist / sword) instead of its Bolt Pistol.

 

And that sixteenth Swiftclaw is a Swiftclaw Attack Bike. Neither driver nor gunner has the option of trading away their Bolt Pistols. I say this in spite of the first line in the Wargear section which says "Any model may replace its bolt pistol with a chainsword." My reasons for that are 1) The Swiftclaw Attack Bikes as a discrete unit do not have this option, and 2) the phrase "its bolt pistol" is obviously referring to models made up of one marine, not multiple as is the case with the Attack Bike. So it's not like the Attack Bike gains the ability for its crew to swap out their bolt pistols for chainswords or anything else. Their inclusion on the regular Swiftclaw datasheet just led to some vague wording that should have been rephrased. It wouldn't surprise me if a future Codex errata replaces the language in that first wargear list item to read "Any model aside from the Swiftclaw Attack Bike..."

[jerrys]

Here's something I hadn't noticed:

Terminators have one fewer attack than wulfen.

But if they're near the wulfen (or the wulfenstone), they have the same number of attacks.

If they're also near Arjac, they have one MORE attack each than the wulfen do...

They're lower strength and don't have the FNP or the revenge attacks. And much slower. But still -- if they have more attacks, that starts to look like a less unreasonable trade...

Well, probably not. But maybe I'll try it out and see if it works. I guess it's a lot of work to make them only a little worse, instead of a lot worse.

[thymidine]

Here's something I hadn't noticed:

Terminators have one fewer attack than wulfen.

But if they're near the wulfen (or the wulfenstone), they have the same number of attacks.

If they're also near Arjac, they have one MORE attack each than the wulfen do...

They're lower strength and don't have the FNP or the revenge attacks. And much slower. But still -- if they have more attacks, that starts to look like a less unreasonable trade...

Well, probably not. But maybe I'll try it out and see if it works. I guess it's a lot of work to make them only a little worse, instead of a lot worse.

I would say that if you're doing this, remember that you'd have to keep a HUGE chunk of your army really close together for all of the stacking auras to make the TDA guys get that many attacks. The thing that I like about wulfen is that you can outflank them by themselves or with a jump pack Wolf Priest and they do a ton of work. That frees up your wulfen stone wolf lord to go hunt other targets elsewhere on the table.

[Kallas]

Bear in mind that The Wulfen Stone and Wulfen (Kill) don't stack, you could easily run The Stone with TDAWG and Arjac, and the Wulfen on a separate flank.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Also I believe double claws on terminators give yet another attack if we really want to push numbers up

[jerrys]

I would say that if you're doing this, remember that you'd have to keep a HUGE chunk of your army really close together for all of the stacking auras to make the TDA guys get that many attacks. The thing that I like about wulfen is that you can outflank them by themselves or with a jump pack Wolf Priest and they do a ton of work. That frees up your wulfen stone wolf lord to go hunt other targets elsewhere on the table.

 

 

Yeah, I was looking at that. Maybe a wolf priest with the stone in there ... it's a lot of points all in one spot (or in one stormwolf or whatever).

[thymidine]

I think the jump pack wolf priest is a perfect fit for a wulfen squad. Not only does he allow them to reroll hits, but he gives them leadership 9 as well. That is a really nice bonus that I overlooked in the past. Their base leadership of 7 makes me wary of taking groups bigger than 5, but with the ld 9 from the priest I'm going to try taking a squad of 7 instead of 2 squads of 5. That frees up a command point (since I only have to outflank one squad) and quite a few points for some other threats.

 

Then you have the healing ability, which is really nice on a 2 wound model that is so durable. Your opponents will be using a lot of firepower to remove one wound from a 3++/5+++ wulfen and being able to put it right back again on your turn is just awesome.

[PeteySödes]

It was basically horde meta before knight meta came to pass. Storm bolter WG and razors have been staples forever so I’m not too worried.

 

I don’t see too many people going out and buying a green tide though if they didn’t already have it. Orks really never went away, they’ve been scary this whole time if you had the right boyz around...

[TiguriusX]

It was basically horde meta before knight meta came to pass. Storm bolter WG and razors have been staples forever so I’m not too worried.

 

I don’t see too many people going out and buying a green tide though if they didn’t already have it. Orks really never went away, they’ve been scary this whole time if you had the right boyz around...

More than just orks are coming. Local IG in my area are considering alternatives post FAQ.

 

I ran into a max model brigade detachment of valhallans in a narrative campaign and the guardsmen were never ending. Morale immunity from a relic meant i had to focus fire and kill it all. If i killed a unit in that fashion it came right back with "send in the next wave" anyways.

 

They covered the entire board like ants (move move move is insane).

 

Even if a knight soup army fired everything it had it couldn't erase guardsmen fast enough and the point tradeoff is always in IG favor

 

My armies can deal with knight stuff.

 

I need more tools for hordes (orks and others)

 

*Valhallans not Vostroyons...all IG look alike and sound alike apparently