Mathhammer RG Aggressors vs DW Intercessors

[KGatch113]

I think my numbers are off, so here's the situation.

 

You have 3 units of 10 intercessors with normal bolt rifles. You can hellfire round for 2+ wounding, so rapid firing 60 shots. Rerolling 1's for nearby Watch Captain. Or you can vengeance round for a better chance at killing what you are shooting at. ( and you possibly get the reroll1  to wound for MT).

 

Vs.

 

3 units of Raven Guard Aggressors using Strike from the Shadows. 18 guys firing 12 shots each (216 shots), rerolling all misses. 0 AP, but possible Captain with storm of fire ( 6's give Ap -1).

Intercessors hit 40 times, rerolling 10 for another 6 hits, so 46 hits total. Wounding on 2's with a reroll of 1, we'll make it easy and say all 46 wound. -1 AP, so against MEQ that's 23 dead. Vengeance rounds subtracts 6 inches, so rapid fire range would be 12 inches, so 46 hits, 23 wounds at -3 AP, so not a bonus to kills. 

 

Aggressors 216 shots, 142 hits, 74 misses, reroll adds 48 hits, so 190 hits. Wounding on 4's means 95 wounds. So that would be 28 MEQ dead ( possibly more with SoF).

Advantages/Disadvantages Raven Guard get -1 to be hit from 12 inches out, SFtS is an infiltrate so they start in rapid fire range/stationary at T1, but if you get T2, you get alpha'd. Aggressors are better at HtH. More rerolls and character support.

Deathwatch Intercessors have Obsec, Deep Srike shields them from Alpha Strike and better starting position, need to clear bubblewrap, can be tied up in melee. Character Support not as good. 

Deathwatch Veterans would almost double the kill potential ( no -1 AP) if they took storm bolters, but I doubt I could get 30 storm bolters by Sept 29th. 

 

Did I do this right? What am I missing. Of course there would be some support units, but I'm looking at the potential of the alpha/beta strike with these units.  Most opponents I'm seeing though are taking flyer heavy armies....

[Drizzt79]

If I’m not mistaken, an aggressor (not DW, so no reroll ones to wound) fires 6+D6 shots, that means 9.5shots in avg

So you would have 171 shots, 126.5 hits (if you reroll ones), 63.3 wounds on a MEQ, 20.87 kills.

 

Intercessor in rapidfire with hellfire rounds, 60 shots, 44.4 hits (if you reroll ones), 40.8 wounds (if you reroll ones, amd ap-1)), 20.5kills

 

So you could call it a draw :-)

 

Anyways Intercessors with hellfire rounds are much better than agressors against monsters or battlesuits (T5 or more, not vehicle)

[KGatch113]

If I’m not mistaken, an aggressor (not DW, so no reroll ones to wound) fires 6+D6 shots, that means 9.5shots in avg

So you would have 171 shots, 126.5 hits (if you reroll ones), 63.3 wounds on a MEQ, 20.87 kills.

 

Intercessor in rapidfire with hellfire rounds, 60 shots, 44.4 hits (if you reroll ones), 40.8 wounds (if you reroll ones, amd ap-1)), 20.5kills

 

So you could call it a draw :-)

 

Anyways Intercessors with hellfire rounds are much better than agressors against monsters or battlesuits (T5 or more, not vehicle)

 

I'm looking at the Aggressor's profile in CSM and they shoot 6, twice if they do not move. I'm not seeing the +d6.

 

It is all theoryhammer anyway, I'm prepping for 2 tournaments and the big lists will be flyer (Eldar/Dark Eldar) heavy and probably by now knight heavy. I find I'm still locked in the old 3rd-6th mindset where 40K battles involve troops vs troops.

[vigitant]

 

If I’m not mistaken, an aggressor (not DW, so no reroll ones to wound) fires 6+D6 shots, that means 9.5shots in avg

So you would have 171 shots, 126.5 hits (if you reroll ones), 63.3 wounds on a MEQ, 20.87 kills.

 

Intercessor in rapidfire with hellfire rounds, 60 shots, 44.4 hits (if you reroll ones), 40.8 wounds (if you reroll ones, amd ap-1)), 20.5kills

 

So you could call it a draw :-)

 

Anyways Intercessors with hellfire rounds are much better than agressors against monsters or battlesuits (T5 or more, not vehicle)

 

I'm looking at the Aggressor's profile in CSM and they shoot 6, twice if they do not move. I'm not seeing the +d6.

 

It is all theoryhammer anyway, I'm prepping for 2 tournaments and the big lists will be flyer (Eldar/Dark Eldar) heavy and probably by now knight heavy. I find I'm still locked in the old 3rd-6th mindset where 40K battles involve troops vs troops.

 

They shoot twice, bolt aggressors have 2 weapons.  one does 6 shots, one does d6 shots.  so 12+2d6 total if they dont move.

If youre expecting knights, Helblaster KT's are badass.  10 shots wounding on 3's with strategem is gonna take a chunk out of a knight.

[Qui-Gon]

If all you are shooting the Aggressors at is space marines, they will out-perform intercessors with SIA.
Now try shooting at T5+/T8 Monstrous Creatures and see where the math shifts.
Or T7 vehicles where the marines can wound on 4s and have AP -3.

If the entire universe were just space marines, aggressors win through weight of dice. The moment the math shifts a bit against the aggressors, SIA begins to win.

[vigitant]

If all you are shooting the Aggressors at is space marines, they will out-perform intercessors with SIA.

Now try shooting at T5+/T8 Monstrous Creatures and see where the math shifts.

Or T7 vehicles where the marines can wound on 4s and have AP -3.

 

If the entire universe were just space marines, aggressors win through weight of dice. The moment the math shifts a bit against the aggressors, SIA begins to win.

Also factor in overkill.  Even my DW intergressor squads have to split fire or risk wasting a ton of shots.  Having the versatility of SIA bolt rifles can be very useful.  Keep in mind this isnt an either/or thing.  DW has a very effective platform for aggressors as well.  intergressor squads cant be locked down in melee.  They are T5 across 20 wounds, withgout paying for 10 aggressors/inceptors.  They can deep strike.  Yeah, you lose the massive punch if you get 1st turn.  But you also cant be alpha struck, you get a ton of rerolls, +1 to wound off a strat, more survivability, you can advance without penalty, and can fall back and shoot.

[KGatch113]

You've sold me on DW intergressors vs RG aggressors. 

Now, sell me on DW Intergressors vs DW Veterans with stormbolters, storm shields and an odd hth weapon like a HTH. 

And is there a reliable way to get a Watch Master close to the firebase that drops in via teleportorium?

[vigitant]

You've sold me on DW intergressors vs RG aggressors. 

 

Now, sell me on DW Intergressors vs DW Veterans with stormbolters, storm shields and an odd hth weapon like a HTH. 

 

And is there a reliable way to get a Watch Master close to the firebase that drops in via teleportorium?

DW veterans are good.  A bit more resilient to some weapons types, more shots with more versatile AP, better output vs monsters.  Cheaper access to fall back and shoot.  a Frag cannon can add some pain to overwatch.  Lots of chainswords lets them bully shooty infantry.  HTH is a waste of points, imo.  a Thunder hammer on a sgt or black shield isnt bad, but i still think its too much points to do something you dont really want to be doing, and wont do very well anyway.

 

Intergressor squad has twice as many wounds at T5.  A ton more Dakka, albeit less SIA shots.  Seriously, i had to start split firing them because they put out so much dmg.

More mobile with their +d6 movement from free advancing.  They also stay a threat to the very end.  I've had one aggressor, one inceptor left after a nasty charge from Eldar, and the 2 survivors backed up and slaughtered the unit that charged them.  Even one aggressor in you enemy's face is a threat they HAVE to deal with.  12+2d6 bolter shots hurts.

A couple storm bolters just doesnt carry the same threat.

 

As for the watchmaster, i usually use the strat to deep strike him.  WM + 2 troops, or troop and leviathan(in my current list).  Then put beacon on a Jump captain or jump libby for another unit(usually my intergressor squad).

[KGatch113]

I'm thinking of doing a similar thing, but I'd like 3 intergressor squads in the front. 

I think I mentioned above, there are sure to be several Knights and several flyer heavy lists. I'm thinking of some RG dev squads with lascannons and rerolls to deal with them. And a Leviathan. A Guard batt in the backfield is also an option. I could take 3 Shield Captains to deal with flyers.....

[Lemondish]

Okay, so just as you mentioned, 3 units of 10 Hellfire Bolt Rifle Intercessors are 60 shots, 47 hits (re-rolling ones), 45 wounds (re-rolling ones), against MEQ that comes to 23 dead models (15 in cover). Vengeance is identical for bolt rifles unless they're in cover where they'll retire 18 instead (the extra AP boosts the lethality here).

 

Aggressors get 6 shots from the boltstorm gauntlets and 1d6 from the fragstorm, so 18 Aggressors are looking at 108 + 18d6 shots possible. Standing still, that's 216 + 36d6 shots (average 342 shots), 252 hits (re-rolling ones), 126 wounds (42 at AP-1), killing about 49 marines (28 in cover).  

 

So, out of cover, it's 23 to 49 on MEQ, but once those marines are in cover you'll be looking at a smaller gap due to Vengeance rounds - 18 to 28. There's a 66 point premium on the Aggressors, and they lose obsec. 

 

Now, you wouldn't realistically deep strike 10 bolt rifle carrying Intercessors - there are more dangerous and much bigger fire magnets to spend those CPs on. The other thing to keep in mind is that SIA helps against more than just MEQ. I'm also not entirely sure what you mean when you say Intercessors lack character support - they can access the same buffs a vanilla marine force can (minus SoF) but also gain a lot from additional stratagem support. 

[vigitant]

 

Okay, so just as you mentioned, 3 units of 10 Hellfire Bolt Rifle Intercessors are 60 shots, 47 hits (re-rolling ones), 45 wounds (re-rolling ones), against MEQ that comes to 23 dead models (15 in cover). Vengeance is identical for bolt rifles unless they're in cover where they'll retire 18 instead (the extra AP boosts the lethality here).

 

Aggressors get 6 shots from the boltstorm gauntlets and 1d6 from the fragstorm, so 18 Aggressors are looking at 108 + 18d6 shots possible. Standing still, that's 216 + 36d6 shots (average 342 shots), 252 hits (re-rolling ones), 126 wounds (42 at AP-1), killing about 49 marines (28 in cover).  

 

So, out of cover, it's 23 to 49 on MEQ, but once those marines are in cover you'll be looking at a smaller gap due to Vengeance rounds - 18 to 28. There's a 66 point premium on the Aggressors, and they lose obsec. 

 

Now, you wouldn't realistically deep strike 10 bolt rifle carrying Intercessors - there are more dangerous and much bigger fire magnets to spend those CPs on. The other thing to keep in mind is that SIA helps against more than just MEQ. I'm also not entirely sure what you mean when you say Intercessors lack character support - they can access the same buffs a vanilla marine force can (minus SoF) but also gain a lot from additional stratagem support. 

 

And just to get all the mathhammer in the same place, Intergressor squad(5 auto intercessors, 4 boltstorm aggressors, 1 bolt inceptor):

does about 9 unsaved wounds vs MEQ(5 in cover).

  Standing still, that goes to about 14(8 in cover).

 

3 of them, for comparison above, is 27(15 in cover).

    Standing still:  42(24 in cover)                                       -note, might be more due to rounding before multiplying.

 

Grain of salt:  Intergressor squad is expensive.  To fairly compare these, you'd need to also factor in costs and role.