Of Honour and Iron

[Ishagu]

I've started reading it, getting better and enjoying it so far. Dark Imperium 2 can't come soon enough.

 

Edit:

Typo

[Robbienw]

Really enjoyed this one. Three things from it I think worth mentioning/discussing:

 

This one made me laugh. Chaplain Helios’s reaction upon first seeing Primaris marines, in particular this line:

 

“Their wargear was uncannily similar to that of the Adeptus Astartes, and yet seemed all the more perverse for its differences. The proportions were wrong”

 

My feelings exactly :lol:

 

A good explanation imo as to why Primaris are a bit hard to accept and why they won’t be replacing classic marines anytime soon, from Captain Numitor of the 8the company:

 

“Naturally there are those within the hierarchy of the Chapter that met the revelation of our Primaris brethren with surprise.’ Numitor spread a sheaf of transcripts in front of him as he spoke. ‘The Space Marine Chapters are martial societies, inured over the millennia to embrace ritual and tradition and eschew that which is in opposition to those conventions that form our identities and beliefs. Our weapons and armour are thousands of years old, our tactics the unchanged word of the primarch from the days of the Second Founding. Change is not a thing to be accepted quickly among our ranks, nor easily. So you must understand that your existence, even coming from the most sacred of authorities as it does, took time to process.’

Seneca’s thoughts retraced to the darkness of the hive, and the dying words of the Iron Warrior.

‘Our present circumstance,’ the captain continued, ‘will do much to allay that trepidation. The truth of the matter is that there could be one million of you, and we would still be sorely lacking in the forces needed to conduct the wars to come in this crusade. There are too many battles ahead for the Imperium to cast any weapon aside in favour of another, as Quradim has surely taught you.”

 

Possibly quite a big one this one, Ishagu is not going to like it.

 

Gulliman is having a chat in the epilogue with the skull of Marius Gage. He states that the ultra marines were the most powerful force in the imperium after the heresy. He stated they hadn’t suffered the casualties in numbers every other legion, traitor or loyalist, had and that they had the numbers to destroy everyone else and take over the imperium with him crowned king.

 

He basically admits he and the ultramarines at the time thought about doing this, but choose not to for moral reasons :O

[Robbienw]

Anyone else get the "execute order 66" vibe.

 

Consider, GW are saying normal marines arent getting squatted they seem to drop quite a few hints to the contrary in their books.

 

No, exactly the opposite. Did you not read to the end where it was stated why normal marines won’t be ‘squatted’?

[Blindhamster]

 

No, exactly the opposite. Did you not read to the end where it was stated why normal marines won’t be ‘squatted’?

 

Robbienw, would you recommend giving it a read?

[Robbienw]

Yes definitely, it’s a good read :)

[Ishagu]

I'm about half way through now. One thing I don't like is the portrayal of the classic Ultras in the book. They are more Black Templars than Ultras.

 

It's a fun read no doubt, but not an accurate portrayal of Ultramarines.

[Subtleknife]

 

Anyone else get the "execute order 66" vibe.

 

Consider, GW are saying normal marines arent getting squatted they seem to drop quite a few hints to the contrary in their books.

 

No, exactly the opposite. Did you not read to the end where it was stated why normal marines won’t be ‘squatted’?

What passage are you reffering to? I remember one saying they were integrating them but then there were multiple quotes saying pretty much the primaris are better. Also drawing inferences between vanilla astartes and the thunder warriors plus the marine saying "be better than us"

[Robbienw]

The Iron Warrior was just taunting the chaplain, it doesn't actually mean normal marines will be killed off like the thunder warriors.

 

The primaris are physically better than normal marines, but that doesn't mean they need to replace them. They just go on about it in novels with both types of marines to emphasis the difference. They are physically better than Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard too, should they replace them as well?  We know they are physically better, but we also know they are a not a like for like replacement for normal marines and that the imperium cant afford to throw away all their ancient relic gear and standard marine geneseed just because there are now 100,000 or so primaris around.

 

The passage I am referring to is the one in my earlier post in spoiler tags if you want to see the exact text.  But in it Captain Numitor explains that times are too dark to throw away any weapon for another and they must use everything they have.  He also says Gulliman has decreed the Primaris must be integrated into their forces.  Integrate means to combine to things, not to replace one thing with another.

 

Added to that, this novel is set at the start of the Indomitus Crusade.  110 years later or so in where the current fluff is 'at', you still have normal marines around, you still have Scouts and Blood Claws around, and you have specific instances mentioned of classic marines still being produced in places like the BA codex.

 

So TLDR; no, I do not get and order 66 vibe :lol:

[Robbienw]

I think this novel has actually made me warm to the Primaris fluff a bit! :O

 

Ishagu, tell us what you think of the epilogue when you get to it :devil:

[Ishagu]

Lol I will, but the portrayal of the Ultras is definitely wrong and in contradiction to other, very recent novels. We'll see if I get outraged lol

[b1soul]

@ Robbienw

 

"The primaris are physically better than normal marines, but that doesn't mean they need to replace them. They just go on about it in novels with both types of marines to emphasis the difference. They are physically better than Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard too, should they replace them as well?"

 

Primaris to SM relationship is not quite analogous to SM to SoB/Guardsmen.

 

In economic terms, Primaris and SM are substitutes. Guardsmen and SoB perform different roles.

[Robbienw]

Yes but they are not substitutes.  They can't use a lot of existing marine gear.  Plus they are missing a lot of units to do the jobs of SM stuff were it to disappear.  You also have the fact the primaris geneseed is new and you cant use regular geneseed to make them.  Thus you have huge amounts of wargear and geneseed that you are just going to discard because primaris have arrived, why would you do that?  The imperium effectively made the 2 things in tandem anyway, why not continue doing that if you have enough recruits and resource? 

 

All these vital relic war armour and war machines are suddenly ok to be thrown away just cause you made a new species of marine with exactly two tanks and one aircraft to go with them. No.

 

Anyway its all academic, we already know from the fluff and GW that they are not a replacement.

[b1soul]

They are substitutes...perhaps not perfect substitutes (which would mean they are exactly the same, and we know they're not).

 

Primaris have a similar cost and perform a very similar role...but better. It makes sense to gradually phase out SM in favour of Primaris. Yeah, there are currently no jump-pack, chainsword-wielding Primaris, but you could easily give them that load-out in the future.

 

In contrast...it makes zero sense to phase out Guardsmen in favour of SM. Guardsmen are cheap, mass infantry. It makes sense to retain a mix of elite infantry and cheap infantry.

[Subtleknife]

The Iron Warrior was just taunting the chaplain, it doesn't actually mean normal marines will be killed off like the thunder warriors.

 

The primaris are physically better than normal marines, but that doesn't mean they need to replace them. They just go on about it in novels with both types of marines to emphasis the difference. They are physically better than Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard too, should they replace them as well? We know they are physically better, but we also know they are a not a like for like replacement for normal marines and that the imperium cant afford to throw away all their ancient relic gear and standard marine geneseed just because there are now 100,000 or so primaris around.

 

The passage I am referring to is the one in my earlier post in spoiler tags if you want to see the exact text. But in it Captain Numitor explains that times are too dark to throw away any weapon for another and they must use everything they have. He also says Gulliman has decreed the Primaris must be integrated into their forces. Integrate means to combine to things, not to replace one thing with another.

 

Added to that, this novel is set at the start of the Indomitus Crusade. 110 years later or so in where the current fluff is 'at', you still have normal marines around, you still have Scouts and Blood Claws around, and you have specific instances mentioned of classic marines still being produced in places like the BA codex.

 

So TLDR; no, I do not get and order 66 vibe :lol:

I disagree with your analogy. Primaris and marines fulfil the same role, guard do not.

 

Also when i read iy through i did not see the quote about the TW being a taunt more of a statement of fact. I also see the point about discarding marines differently as well as the integration bit. I saw it more of that marines are now there to teach primaris and they wont be replaced at the rate primaris are so will eventually be phased out. Hence the "be better than us" bit.

[Robbienw]

They don’t fill the same roles yet, Primaris marines don’t have enough unit types.

 

The iron warrior couldn’t possibly know wether the Primaris were replacements or not, he was just trying to taunt the chaplain.

 

The chaplain saying be better than us is is just literally the chaplain saying that. The Primaris are a new force and can learn from the mistakes of the previous generation. That says nothing about replacement.

 

You can’t argue against the integration thing, it’s very clear cut. Integrate means to combine two things not replace one thing with another.

 

Anyway as i said it’s academic, we know classic marines are around and still being produced in the current 40k present time.

 

If they did eventually become a replacement then they will need a lot more units, and they will need time in the setting to produce hundreds of thousands more Primaris geneseeds to replace the hundreds of thousands of classic marines 1 for 1. It would probably take several more centuries in the 40k setting so is irrelevant at the moment anyway. They’d need to do another time jump. I don’t see them doing that for a long while if ever. More likely in 10 to 15 years time I reckon they will do another type of marine which replaces classics and Primaris and reunifies the line. I reckon they will call them Excelsis marines or something like that :lol:

[Subtleknife]

They don’t fill the same roles yet, Primaris marines don’t have enough unit types.

 

The iron warrior couldn’t possibly know wether the Primaris were replacements or not, he was just trying to taunt the chaplain.

 

The chaplain saying be better than us is is just literally the chaplain saying that. The Primaris are a new force and can learn from the mistakes of the previous generation. That says nothing about replacement.

 

You can’t argue against the integration thing, it’s very clear cut. Integrate means to combine two things not replace one thing with another.

 

Anyway as i said it’s academic, we know classic marines are around and still being produced in the current 40k present time.

 

If they did eventually become a replacement then they will need a lot more units, and they will need time in the setting to produce hundreds of thousands more Primaris geneseeds to replace the hundreds of thousands of classic marines 1 for 1. It would probably take several more centuries in the 40k setting so is irrelevant at the moment anyway. They’d need to do another time jump. I don’t see them doing that for a long while if ever. More likely in 10 to 15 years time I reckon they will do another type of marine which replaces classics and Primaris and reunifies the line. I reckon they will call them Excelsis marines or something like that :lol:

Yeah agree the book wasnt setting it up gor an imminent replacement if GW are going down that route. They could call the new ones re-restartes.

[Rob P]

From a setting POV I wonder how far GW are prepared to move the clock along. We've had the big warp crack tearing the galaxy in two which allows for fresh stories and movement.

 

Personally, i'm not bothered if the clock ticks on as the warp rift and return of Guilliman (and primaris) are game changers. Seemingly the worse thing has happened for the Imperium and now they're pushing back.

 

If they continue with this two minutes to midnight concept, are we ever going to really see primaris meaningfully develop. Or is that the point? Do they have sufficient currency as a plot device to keep the setting as a minute into the Dark Imperium?

[Sete]

That last minute could be a millennium or 2.

Now that we advanced the plot, I'm not too bothered to keep it going.

 

Put Helbrecth on a Dreadnaught, Carab Culn style, for example,and make way for a new generation of Primaris Hero's for the loyalists.

They can be an upgrade for Astartes, instead of an addition, I'm not that interested on Primaris Vs OG marines tensions. There are bigger fish to fry than "Brother Sigmund is taller than me".

SM are weapons. A new version is out, I would not use a flintlock with a automatic weapon available.

[Robbienw]

If they continue with this two minutes to midnight concept, are we ever going to really see primaris meaningfully develop.

Quite possibly not.

 

I suspect GW are playing a long game seeing how popular Primaris become and if classic marines still stay popular before they make a decision on how they will proceed in the long term.

 

I thinks it’s safe to say we will be seeing classics and Primaris together for a long time yet.

[Blindhamster]

one interesting thing, is that primaris do indeed go through 10th company and regular astartes training. This is the first proof of that, which in turn also then does break the original view I know Robbienw at least had that all those initiates in the BA codex absolutely had to be regular astartes.

Considering the end of devestation of baal (where all the kids were taken specifically to be made into primaris), the BA codex (which shows a fairly small number of scouts and a huge number of initiates in 10th co and then this book where we get confirmation that primaris going forward do go through 10th co, and suddenly i'm not sure what to think all over again.

I do agree that both are being made, but I think it may be that a lot of scouts are in the early phases of primaris creation for all we know.

I guess we just have to wait for more concrete answers (or new models)

[Robbienw]

No, they still have to be regular astartes.  They mention Scouts and Primaris being produced at the same time.  If they were the same thing they would not be mentioned separately. They would just say the several thousand grizzled surviving aspirant were inducted to become primaris marines.  But instead they say the several thousand aspirants were inducted into the scout companies, and the ranks were further bolstered by primaris marines from cawls spaceship and produced on baal with the new cawl machines. 

 

Plus in the scout entry they mention they have whole armies of Scouts.  There are no Primaris Scouts as we know, and the regular scout entry and models couldn't represent a primaris version.

 

They also would not need to recall their geneseed stocks if they were only planning to make Primaris marines.  As we know primaris have newly produced geneseed.

 

Primaris could still join a chapters 10th company as neophytes.  Remember the 10th company has all the unassigned neophytes in all stages of training, not just end stage scout squads.  So it would make sense for primaris neophytes undergoing the creation process to be in the 10th company.  But then when they are fully grown they will train for their squad role with simulated training exactly like the original primaris, and then go straight into their squads when ready.  There is no mention at all in of Honour and Iron that they go through regular astartes training.  Why would they when they are going into a primaris squad with primaris weapons?

[D3L]

No, they still have to be regular astartes.  They mention Scouts and Primaris being produced at the same time.  If they were the same thing they would not be mentioned separately. They would just say the several thousand grizzled surviving aspirant were inducted to become primaris marines.  But instead they say the several thousand aspirants were inducted into the scout companies, and the ranks were further bolstered by primaris marines from cawls spaceship and produced on baal with the new cawl machines. 

 

Plus in the scout entry they mention they have whole armies of Scouts.  There are no Primaris Scouts as we know, and the regular scout entry and models couldn't represent a primaris version.

 

They also would not need to recall their geneseed stocks if they were only planning to make Primaris marines.  As we know primaris have newly produced geneseed.

 

Primaris could still join a chapters 10th company as neophytes.  Remember the 10th company has all the unassigned neophytes in all stages of training, not just end stage scout squads.  So it would make sense for primaris neophytes undergoing the creation process to be in the 10th company.  But then when they are fully grown they will train for their squad role with simulated training exactly like the original primaris, and then go straight into their squads when ready.  There is no mention at all in of Honour and Iron that they go through regular astartes training.  Why would they when they are going into a primaris squad with primaris weapons?

seems a bit too much like grasping at straws, a lot more likely the phraseology in the BA codex was flawed

 

occam's razor an' all that

 

as far as we know all initiates become standard scouts, then primaris, no new model or difference in training, and no further normalstartes (sadly) any other assumption is being overly generous to the studio

[Robbienw]

No that's the exact opposite of what we know.

 

The simplest reason being the right one would would mean the passage in the BA codex is what it says; the BA are making normal marines and primaris.  Very simple. 

 

There is no evidence primaris become scouts at all, it just seem to have been assumed by primaris fans and internet hysteria without any supporting evidence (or supporting models).

 

Its been stated already by GW that Primaris marine are not a replacement for normal marines.  Then you have other in universe evidence like what is written in the BA codex, the Bloodclaws in the SW codex, and what is actually written later on in the novel being discussed in this thread.

 

You also have other evidence that would be hard to accept if no normal marines were being made, such as the ultramarines 2nd company still being 70% classic marines at the start of the Plague Wars, over 100 years after Primaris Marines were inducted into the chapter...

[D3L]

We'll see.

 

I admire your optimism, brother.

[b1soul]

@ Robbienw

 

"They don’t fill the same roles yet, Primaris marines don’t have enough unit types."

 

Well...they easily could in the future. No Imperial administrator with an ounce of common sense would try to suddenly replace loyal veteran Astartes with Primaris. A gradual transition would be the smartest approach.

 

A Primaris with a jump pack and a chainsword would make a better assault marine. It's oranges 1.1 to oranges 1.0. Primaris are bigger, stronger, faster, possibly cheaper Astartes.

 

Comparing Guardsmen to Astartes is grapes to oranges. One wouldn't replace the other.

 

That said, I wouldn't mind if the lore kept Astartes around indefinitely because of tradition or whatever. The dynamic between the two could fuel some interesting stories.