Of Honour and Iron

[Robbienw]

Well yes they could....in the future.  Many things could happen in the future.  Right now they don't.

 

 

But anyway, back to the book itself; Ishagu have you read the Epilogue yet?! :devil:

[b1soul]

We all know Primaris and Astartes co-exist in current 40K, that goes without saying.

 

I think it's not a stretch to say that Primaris have already started to "replace" Astartes in the sense that the Imperium has finite resources...and the resources traditionally for Astartes production are being shifted toward Primaris production. The production shift has yet to reach 100% though...and I don't think it will for quite some time. Phasing out an entire generation of roughly 1,000,000 (moderately inferior) super-soldiers spread among 1000 scattered chapters (many entrenched in tradition) necessarily takes a lot of time.

[Robbienw]

I think it's not a stretch to say that Primaris have already started to "replace" Astartes in the sense that the Imperium has finite resources...and the resources traditionally for Astartes production are being shifted toward Primaris production. The production shift has yet to reach 100% though...and I don't think it will for quite some time. Phasing out an entire generation of roughly 1,000,000 (moderately inferior) super-soldiers spread among 1000 scattered chapters (many entrenched in tradition) necessarily takes a lot of time.

Perhaps. As I’ve said it’s possible that they could replace them in the longer term, but for now it’s not going to happen. I still think GW will go the for the third way in 10 to 15 years time though and eventually replace both Primaris and Classics with a third type of reunifying marine that brings space marines back together.

[Ishagu]

Just read the bit about the slave crew loading torpedoes by hand.

 

Honestly it's ridiculous, and it's utterly awful lore. One thing the Mechanicus do VERY WELL are mechanical arms and things that self load lol

 

Easily the worst part of the book so far, it's just plain stupid. I had assumed this lore to have been abandoned, and I'm very, very disappointed that it hasn't been.

[Sete]

Dude this is not star trek. ;)

It's GRIMDARK! WHOLE GENERATIONS OF SLAVES LIVING AND DYING ON THE THE BOWELS OF THE SHIP CLAWING AT A MEAGRE EXISTENCE, UPON DEATH THEIR BODIES USED TO FEED SURVIVING SLAVES!

[Ishagu]

There's grim dark, then there's stupid lol

 

This is just stupid. The sheer amount of extra food, oxygen, resources, etc needed.

The additional chance of corruption in the warp. The chance of injury to completely neuter the ability of the starship to do war. You can repair a mechanical arm, what will you do when the thousands of these guys get killed? Lol

 

I'm taking the score of the novel down just for this.

[Sete]

Repair the arm? Nah mate, you pray for it to work. Don't offend his machine spirit like that.

[Ishagu]

I mean these slaves are just possession fodder lol

 

Ugh, it's just bad

[helterskelter]

Gunnery crews are pre established lore, where's the wobble?

[Rob P]

 

I think it's not a stretch to say that Primaris have already started to "replace" Astartes in the sense that the Imperium has finite resources...and the resources traditionally for Astartes production are being shifted toward Primaris production. The production shift has yet to reach 100% though...and I don't think it will for quite some time. Phasing out an entire generation of roughly 1,000,000 (moderately inferior) super-soldiers spread among 1000 scattered chapters (many entrenched in tradition) necessarily takes a lot of time.

Perhaps. As I’ve said it’s possible that they could replace them in the longer term, but for now it’s not going to happen. I still think GW will go the for the third way in 10 to 15 years time though and eventually replace both Primaris and Classics with a third type of reunifying marine that brings space marines back together.

 

Like some sort of Secundus marine .. like Imperium Secundus ... now it makes sense

 

On gunnery crews - i'm happy with what works the plot.

[Ishagu]

Not gunnery crews. I mean thousands of pit slaves dragging torpedoes into tubes with chains lol

[helterskelter]

Not gunnery crews. I mean thousands of pit slaves dragging torpedoes into tubes with chains lol

Genuinely not seeing the issue whether they're paid or made to do it. If it was servitors doing it they're just upgraded slaves.

[Ishagu]

What I mean is, it's Terrible lore.

 

I get the idea, it's like the slaves rowing under the deck, chained up during the olden times. Grim Dark and all that.

 

It's logically very dumb, especially as it's actually a bigger expenditure of resources to do, is a massive warp risk, and it would be all too easy to have the process be mechanised.

 

At the moment lots of people on crews go mad during transit as the warp assaults ships violently, this is a constant problem in the post great rift universe. You're telling me that a ship literally cannot use it's weapons unless a bunch of brutally beaten pit slaves can't load them? These guys would be possessed upon any warp assault on a ship, easy to pray upon their mysery.

 

I hadn't seen this lore spoken about since around the time of the original BFG release and I assumed GW had moved on from it, much the same way they abandoned some other ideas in the past.

[Blindhamster]

No that's the exact opposite of what we know.

 

The simplest reason being the right one would would mean the passage in the BA codex is what it says; the BA are making normal marines and primaris.  Very simple. 

 

There is no evidence primaris become scouts at all, it just seem to have been assumed by primaris fans and internet hysteria without any supporting evidence (or supporting models).

 

Its been stated already by GW that Primaris marine are not a replacement for normal marines.  Then you have other in universe evidence like what is written in the BA codex, the Bloodclaws in the SW codex, and what is actually written later on in the novel being discussed in this thread.

 

You also have other evidence that would be hard to accept if no normal marines were being made, such as the ultramarines 2nd company still being 70% classic marines at the start of the Plague Wars, over 100 years after Primaris Marines were inducted into the chapter...

The 10th company is specifically the scout company, its the 10th companies entire job. If primaris are in the 10th, they're scouts, or at least they would be scouts in the same way black templar initiates are scouts (e.g. lighter armour, due to a lack of black carapace)

 

(to be clear, im not saying all scouts in the 10th are primaris, im just suggesting that because they're too early in their creation process, the differences may be small enough that its explained, please dont try to coin it as fan boyism, I'm just running along the fact that 10th companies job is to train the scouts, if you're in 10th comapany you're expected to be on active duty, but are not a full battle brother yet).

 

We also don't know if all primaris once in chapters continue to be programmed in the cawl manner, ALL marines go through a form of hypno training and uploaded knowledge, thats also been established lore for decades. The purpose of the scout companies was to change that from theoretical to practical to coin a HH ultramarine phrase. Current primaris that cawl sent out didnt have that and we have it pretty well established that they actually dont perform as well as they should because of it, I guarantee a savy chapter master (such as Dante!) would ensure the chapter are better trained, particularly as we know how important that period of said chapter masters life was to them.

 

 

anyway, gosh, i hope one of these books provides some clarity on the topic at some point, I know when i spoke to Guy Haley a year ago he was unsure on where they would go with training new primaris, but hoped to cover it in a follow on from devastation of baal.

[Robbienw]

 

 

No that's the exact opposite of what we know.

 

The simplest reason being the right one would would mean the passage in the BA codex is what it says; the BA are making normal marines and primaris. Very simple.

 

There is no evidence primaris become scouts at all, it just seem to have been assumed by primaris fans and internet hysteria without any supporting evidence (or supporting models).

 

Its been stated already by GW that Primaris marine are not a replacement for normal marines. Then you have other in universe evidence like what is written in the BA codex, the Bloodclaws in the SW codex, and what is actually written later on in the novel being discussed in this thread.

 

You also have other evidence that would be hard to accept if no normal marines were being made, such as the ultramarines 2nd company still being 70% classic marines at the start of the Plague Wars, over 100 years after Primaris Marines were inducted into the chapter...

The 10th company is specifically the scout company, its the 10th companies entire job. If primaris are in the 10th, they're scouts, or at least they would be scouts in the same way black templar initiates are scouts (e.g. lighter armour, due to a lack of black carapace)

 

(to be clear, im not saying all scouts in the 10th are primaris, im just suggesting that because they're too early in their creation process, the differences may be small enough that its explained, please dont try to coin it as fan boyism, I'm just running along the fact that 10th companies job is to train the scouts, if you're in 10th comapany you're expected to be on active duty, but are not a full battle brother yet.

No that’s not the case. The 10th company also contains all the unassigned neophytes who are at various stages of implantation, who are not ready to deploy in combat. Yes I guess they are technically Scouts, but they are not combat deployable like the Scouts you see on the battlefield. Scouts aren’t early in the creation process anyway, they are right at the end just before they get the black carapace.

 

I think it’s reasonable to infer that this is how Primaris marines are in the 10th company, by them being neophytes in various stages of implantation. They will then do simulated training like the original Primaris and deploy straight into their squad types out to the other companies when ready.

 

This is really the only viable answer currently to Primaris in the 10th company, as there is no Primaris scout unit in the fluff, in the rules, or in model format, thus it is reasonable to conclude they don’t exist.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

No that's the exact opposite of what we know.

 

The simplest reason being the right one would would mean the passage in the BA codex is what it says; the BA are making normal marines and primaris. Very simple.

 

There is no evidence primaris become scouts at all, it just seem to have been assumed by primaris fans and internet hysteria without any supporting evidence (or supporting models).

 

Its been stated already by GW that Primaris marine are not a replacement for normal marines. Then you have other in universe evidence like what is written in the BA codex, the Bloodclaws in the SW codex, and what is actually written later on in the novel being discussed in this thread.

 

You also have other evidence that would be hard to accept if no normal marines were being made, such as the ultramarines 2nd company still being 70% classic marines at the start of the Plague Wars, over 100 years after Primaris Marines were inducted into the chapter...

The 10th company is specifically the scout company, its the 10th companies entire job. If primaris are in the 10th, they're scouts, or at least they would be scouts in the same way black templar initiates are scouts (e.g. lighter armour, due to a lack of black carapace)

 

(to be clear, im not saying all scouts in the 10th are primaris, im just suggesting that because they're too early in their creation process, the differences may be small enough that its explained, please dont try to coin it as fan boyism, I'm just running along the fact that 10th companies job is to train the scouts, if you're in 10th comapany you're expected to be on active duty, but are not a full battle brother yet.

No that’s not the case. The 10th company also contains all the unassigned neophytes who are at various stages of implantation, who are not ready to deploy in combat. Yes I guess they are technically Scouts, but they are not combat deployable like the Scouts you see on the battlefield. Scouts aren’t early in the creation process anyway, they are right at the end just before they get the black carapace.

 

I think it’s reasonable to infer that this is how Primaris marines are in the 10th company, by them being neophytes in various stages of implantation. They will then do simulated training like the original Primaris and deploy straight into their squad types out to the other companies when ready.

 

This is really the only viable answer currently to Primaris in the 10th company, as there is no Primaris scout unit in the fluff, in the rules, or in model format, thus it is reasonable to conclude they don’t exist.

 

 

why would they absolutely need to be different?

 

also:

 

"The 10th Company is made up entirely of Scouts – new recruits whose physical transformation and training is incomplete. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for the 10th Company, as the rate of recruitment is not fixed."

 

page 12 of codex space marines.

 

"The 10th Company traditionally serves as the training ground for battle-brothers of the Chapter, and is made up entirely of Scouts. Led by a Sergeant, these recruits will take to the battlefield alongside the strike forces of other companies, typically acting in a reconnaissance role. The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for the 10th Company, as the rate of recruitment is not fixed."

 

page 12 of codex dark angels

[Robbienw]

Yet at the same time you have the scout company from the BA codex having an additional 457 unassigned neophytes as well as Scout squads, so it is factually accurate to say at least some scout companies also contain neophytes. And maybe they are all just referred to as scouts, even though not all are ready for the battlefield.

 

They would obviously have to be different because of the physiological differences between normal marines and Primaris marines. Primaris marines are a lot bigger as you know. You don’t really think they are normally scout sized and then suddenly they have completed their last mission and get their black carapace and magically grow 2 feet taller and 30% bigger do you? It’s an inescapable fact your argument cannot get past.

 

I guess you could refer to Primaris neophytes as scouts, technically if they are in the 10th company. But that’s not the same as full scout squad scouts, there are no fluff instances of such a thing existing, no unit entry in any marine codex for such a thing and no models. Thus they do not exist.

[Blindhamster]

Primaris marines are indeed larger, probably between half a foot and a foot taller once fully grown. Scouts are typically not fully grown.

I agree that scout models as they stand aren't a good candidate to represent whatever you might call a primaris neophyte, but based on the sources we have, its becoming increasingly clear that primaris do go through a neophyte stage, we just don't know what that entails. assumptions can be made, but for the primaris created as part of an existing chapter, it remains to be seen if they follow the cawl method of training or follow the parent chapters traditions (the latter does however seem likely seeing as the blooding seems to happen for BA and the test of morkai appears to for the wolves for example)

The blood angels codex also makes absolute zero mention of creating primaris marines and just focuses on a "huge recruitment drive" which swells the 10th company and the blurb about lots of scouts - yet we know with certainty that primaris marines are absolutely being made. Previously you were sure the unassigned neophytes were all regular astartes, but now it seems you're willing to accept that the unassigned ones are as likely to be primaris as regular - which I consider to be a good step forward lol.

Anyway, of honour and iron specifically talks about ultramarines primaris being in the 10th company, the codex says for ultramarines that the company is entirely made up of scout squads. Based on your view which seems to be "if its not spelled out, its not true" Some of the scouts in 10th company for ultramarines at least are primaris.

Not that it really matters, right now it's all guesswork on either side of this metaphorical fence, and I for one will be happy when they hurry up and spell it out one way or another!

[Demus Ragnok]

What I mean is, it's Terrible lore.

I get the idea, it's like the slaves rowing under the deck, chained up during the olden times. Grim Dark and all that.

It's logically very dumb, especially as it's actually a bigger expenditure of resources to do, is a massive warp risk, and it would be all too easy to have the process be mechanised.

At the moment lots of people on crews go mad during transit as the warp assaults ships violently, this is a constant problem in the post great rift universe. You're telling me that a ship literally cannot use it's weapons unless a bunch of brutally beaten pit slaves can't load them? These guys would be possessed upon any warp assault on a ship, easy to pray upon their mysery.

I hadn't seen this lore spoken about since around the time of the original BFG release and I assumed GW had moved on from it, much the same way they abandoned some other ideas in the past.

You literally just explained the essence of 40k. It. Is. Illogical.

[Ishagu]

Well, not quite like this. There is religion and superstition within the setting that might dictate actions of individuals or groups, but this is not such a case.

[mc warhammer]

without having heard of this before, i assumed it was due to religious/superstitious silliness

 

if that’s not the case, what’s the in-universe rationale?

[Scribe]

 

What I mean is, it's Terrible lore.

I get the idea, it's like the slaves rowing under the deck, chained up during the olden times. Grim Dark and all that.

It's logically very dumb, especially as it's actually a bigger expenditure of resources to do, is a massive warp risk, and it would be all too easy to have the process be mechanised.

At the moment lots of people on crews go mad during transit as the warp assaults ships violently, this is a constant problem in the post great rift universe. You're telling me that a ship literally cannot use it's weapons unless a bunch of brutally beaten pit slaves can't load them? These guys would be possessed upon any warp assault on a ship, easy to pray upon their mysery.

I hadn't seen this lore spoken about since around the time of the original BFG release and I assumed GW had moved on from it, much the same way they abandoned some other ideas in the past.

You literally just explained the essence of 40k. It. Is. Illogical.

 

 

This.

 

Well, not quite like this. There is religion and superstition within the setting that might dictate actions of individuals or groups, but this is not such a case.

 

No, actually. Doing something with brute, raw, grunting, seething, human effort, is PERFECTLY in line with 40K. Work harder, not smarter, is literally the Imperium.

[Robbienw]

Primaris marines are indeed larger, probably between half a foot and a foot taller once fully grown. Scouts are typically not fully grown.

The Scout models are. Put one next to a marine model and see. Particularly the sergeant who is a full marine posted to the scout company to train scouts.

 

Then put one next to a Primaris marine and see the problem you are having squaring the circle :lol:

 

If there is a unit of ‘Primaris Scouts’ then they need rules, models and fluff to represent them. Classic marine Scouts are not suitable and do not also represent Primaris ‘scouts’.

 

 

The blood angels codex also makes absolute zero mention of creating primaris marines

That’s wrong. The BA codex specifically says they are making Primaris marines on Baal using newly installed cawl mechanisms.

[Ishagu]

without having heard of this before, i assumed it was due to religious/superstitious silliness

 

if that’s not the case, what’s the in-universe rationale?

Just a grim dark lore point to illustrate terrible life upon a star ship.

[Marshal Loss]

Ishagu's dissatisfaction with this makes me want to read it