Of Honour and Iron

[Ishagu]

The book is generally good! There's nice battle scenes and some interesting characters. It just mixes up Ultras with Black Templars and randomly brings up old, rubbish lore in one instance.

[Marshal Loss]

There's a difference between 'mixing something up' and an author having a different interpretation to you.

[Ishagu]

Well, the Ultramarines are literally famed for being paragons of reason, logic, truth,etc. This is unquestionable established lore.

 

In this book they are religious zealots, more in keeping with the Black Templars. The depiction is different from even the most recent books to feature Ultras - Dark Imperium, Crusade, etc

[Marshal Loss]

Having not read it, I can't comment on the specifics, but that doesn't change the point at all. Substitute 'you' for 'other authors'. You may disagree with an author's interpretation but it is not invalidated purely by virtue of it being a divergent interpretation.

[Ishagu]

Like I said, I'm enjoying the book.

 

I'm just pointing out that Astartes are generally established as not following the religious beliefs of the wider Imperium. Doubly so for the logic driven Ultramarines.

 

In a recent novel the Ultramarines chapter master, Calgar is surprised to see Guilliman has even allowed an Ecclisiarchy representative to accompany him.

 

It has surprised myself and other readers of this novel that one of the main characters is an Ultramarine who is best described as a hate fueled religious zealot. These are traits I would associate with the Black Templars. Simple as that.

[Sete]

Get your own gimmick Ultramarines geez!

[helterskelter]

Woe betide any divergence of character. I miss captain Titus.

[Marshal Rohr]

Humans drag the torpedos into the firing chamber because during the Heresy demon scrapcode prevented integrated and automated systems from working and firing. It’s discussed in one of last years shorts. The reason imperial computing systems can often be analog is because of the code, as well. Imperial ships fire torpedos several stories high, and without automated arms they have to rely on manual labor.

 

 

Edit: Ishagu clearly doesn’t remember the lore used to be like that and changed and is now coming back to the Ultramarines being ritualistic.

[Ishagu]

The Ultras are certainly not remotely retualistic in other recent novels, but that's the real the issue. They've never subscribed to the religion of mankind.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, no chapter did. They all were ritualistic.

[bluntblade]

That'd be a really stupid mechanic to use, from a practical point of view.

[DukeLeto69]

Humans drag the torpedos into the firing chamber because during the Heresy demon scrapcode prevented integrated and automated systems from working and firing. It’s discussed in one of last years shorts. The reason imperial computing systems can often be analog is because of the code, as well. Imperial ships fire torpedos several stories high, and without automated arms they have to rely on manual labor.

Edit: Ishagu clearly doesn’t remember the lore used to be like that and changed and is now coming back to the Ultramarines being ritualistic.

I never knew that was the reason for the manual labour thang! Just thought it was totally grimdark to have these multi km long warships with shields and ability to traverse the galaxy with weapon systems akin to old earth man o war.

 

Do you remember which short story covered this scrapcode issue? Would love to read it and clearly missed it.

 

@ishagu slaves loading huge weapons with projectiles by pulling chains etc is well established 40k lore and not just back in the days of BFG but in more recent novels too. If you haven't read "Relentless" by Richard Williams then I recommend it.

 

You are correct that there is no logic to the approach but since when was there logic in 40k and particularly the Imperium? For example, how is the worship of and praying to machines logical? Machines are rare and the knowledge and skill to maintain them even rarer. The one resource the IoM has in abundance is people. If in a space battle you lose 10,000 serfs from your gun decks...make high anchor at a planet and pressgang 10,000 new ones into servitude...simple!

 

You say you "assumed" GW had moved on from this point of lore. Why? Have to say it by "assume makes an ass out of u and me". Have you seen any evidence GW moved away from this lore? Any life on a warship stories showing the slave crews replaced by automation?

 

Not having a go at you because your logic argument is correct. However, the "fact" remains that logic in 40k is deliberately ridiculous.

 

@many other folks on this thread... I do find it interesting how passionately folks are arguing about the lore around the Primaris and how they are being introduced. There are clearly holes in the lore right now but I suspect over time this will be resolved. Perhaps that is not satisfying right now but there are real world issues to remember...

 

(Sure no one needs me to remind them but...) for years GW customers/players moaned about the scale of citadel minis and how Space Marines were not truscale. Well finally GW did something about it but due to not wanting to suddenly say to 000s of customers "those models you have spent a tonne of money on and hundreds of hours painting etc are no longer valid and you have to replace them all with our new shiny range of SM minis" they needed a lore fix so players could field both types of mini on the tabletop.

 

I am pretty certain we will only see new kits of Primaris going forward and the old scale SM will just fade out over time (no cliff edge, just the natural release cycle of new kits).

 

Back on (direct) topic of the book... Getting a good vibe from most that this is a good book for how it is handling the Dark Imperium new reality. I am not going to buy all DI books but wonder whether you guys think this should make the A List (and what else is on the DI era A List?)

[Marshal Rohr]

DukeLeto, Duty Waits maybe? The Imperial Fist story from the Christmas Quick Reads last year.

[DukeLeto69]

DukeLeto, Duty Waits maybe? The Imperial Fist story from the Christmas Quick Reads last year.

Cheers brother I will check it out.

[Viridia]

Finished the book yesterday, a nice read. Interesting how the Primaris are treated at first, and also how Theron is expected to slot in with his new Inceptors squad. In terms of the Inceptors someone mentioned near the start, they don't actually fit into the Stormraven, Theron questions them how they will deploy and they explain that they'd drop from the rear grappels/hooks in low orbit. The mention of the CQC training and the deployments that Seneca and his brothers undertook in Sol were quite interesting as well, and I liked the touch on how the Primaris define seniority when there's no difference in their actual rank. Reminds me a bit of the Clone Commando novels from Star Wars.

[Petitioner's City]

Yes but they are not substitutes. They can't use a lot of existing marine gear. Plus they are missing a lot of units to do the jobs of SM stuff were it to disappear. You also have the fact the primaris geneseed is new and you cant use regular geneseed to make them. Thus you have huge amounts of wargear and geneseed that you are just going to discard because primaris have arrived, why would you do that? The imperium effectively made the 2 things in tandem anyway, why not continue doing that if you have enough recruits and resource?

 

All these vital relic war armour and war machines are suddenly ok to be thrown away just cause you made a new species of marine with exactly two tanks and one aircraft to go with them. No.

 

Anyway its all academic, we already know from the fluff and GW that they are not a replacement.

Just because the models can't use the war gear currently doesn't mean there aren't jet pack primaris with pistols and close combat weapons, biker primaris, and primaris using all those vehicles in fictional reality. As new modela are often a retcon, presented with the fluff 'this has always existed' we can never reliably use the game models or rules - which aren't realistic simlulations anyway - to understand how the universe can actually work.

[Petitioner's City]

The Ultras are certainly not remotely retualistic in other recent novels, but that's the real the issue. They've never subscribed to the religion of mankind.

To be precise, 'ritual' doesn't equate to religion; ritual is a component of all society - the act of washing one'a hands entering a hospital ward is ritual, signifying move from unclean and potentially harmful to clean and safe; paying as you go on the bus; saying thank you after getting groceries; etc. The military , political bodies, legal chambers, company board rooms, etc, all are ritualistic because this is a sociological constant in human society - where actions in groups and cultures are loaded with meaning. It's important to use this word correctly as just about every thing in 40k fluff shows all parts of the imperium, especially its millennia-revering marines, as ritualistic.

 

On the point of religiosity, I haven't read the novel, but I think it's much more interesting to show that time has indeed 'decayed' the Astartes too. And as Xenos and the Horusian Wars emphasise, the imperial creed isn't uniform. So religiosity in the imperium means one person'a belief is probably heterodox with regards to another's - the faith of the ultramarine chaplain doesn't mean he is the same as black templars.

 

EDIT: apologies for consecutive posts!

[Kelborn]

Is it just me or do all of the novels of the Dark Imperium setting seem to be quite good?

 

Except for War of Secrets (which still seemed to be accepted by most of the DA scene), I haven't read anything horrendous until now.

 

Still got quite a lot to catch up but I'm somehow anticipating the coming stuff.

[Robbienw]

 

Yes but they are not substitutes. They can't use a lot of existing marine gear. Plus they are missing a lot of units to do the jobs of SM stuff were it to disappear. You also have the fact the primaris geneseed is new and you cant use regular geneseed to make them. Thus you have huge amounts of wargear and geneseed that you are just going to discard because primaris have arrived, why would you do that? The imperium effectively made the 2 things in tandem anyway, why not continue doing that if you have enough recruits and resource?

 

All these vital relic war armour and war machines are suddenly ok to be thrown away just cause you made a new species of marine with exactly two tanks and one aircraft to go with them. No.

 

Anyway its all academic, we already know from the fluff and GW that they are not a replacement.

Just because the models can't use the war gear currently doesn't mean there aren't jet pack primaris with pistols and close combat weapons, biker primaris, and primaris using all those vehicles in fictional reality. As new modela are often a retcon, presented with the fluff 'this has always existed' we can never reliably use the game models or rules - which aren't realistic simlulations anyway - to understand how the universe can actually work.

That’s not what I was saying. I’m saying they can’t use some existing war gear built for normal marines.

 

As for future units, anything could appear, but until it does then we can only go on what is available in fluff and/or model format.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

Yes but they are not substitutes. They can't use a lot of existing marine gear. Plus they are missing a lot of units to do the jobs of SM stuff were it to disappear. You also have the fact the primaris geneseed is new and you cant use regular geneseed to make them. Thus you have huge amounts of wargear and geneseed that you are just going to discard because primaris have arrived, why would you do that? The imperium effectively made the 2 things in tandem anyway, why not continue doing that if you have enough recruits and resource?

 

All these vital relic war armour and war machines are suddenly ok to be thrown away just cause you made a new species of marine with exactly two tanks and one aircraft to go with them. No.

 

Anyway its all academic, we already know from the fluff and GW that they are not a replacement.

Just because the models can't use the war gear currently doesn't mean there aren't jet pack primaris with pistols and close combat weapons, biker primaris, and primaris using all those vehicles in fictional reality. As new modela are often a retcon, presented with the fluff 'this has always existed' we can never reliably use the game models or rules - which aren't realistic simlulations anyway - to understand how the universe can actually work.

That’s not what I was saying. I’m saying they can’t use some existing war gear built for normal marines.

 

As for future units, anything could appear, but until it does then we can only go on what is available in fluff and/or model format.

But why can we only go on this? This is a creator-led hobby contingent upon all our imagining of the setting, where ultimately we all make fanfic. What you are saying invalidates any conversion, any story-led changing of a figure - or what can be somebody with an rpg of the setting.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Just finished Of Honour and Iron and I liked it. It had some nice inciteful moments..... Brother Captain Numitor's comments to Seneca on the mixed acceptance of the Primaris among the Astartes old guard and Guilliman's conversation with Yorick's Marius Gage's skull being particularly good. However, Chaplain Helios praying to the "Deus Imperator" was a head scratching moment and seemed our of character for the Ultramarines.

 

  

 

Well, the Ultramarines are literally famed for being paragons of reason, logic, truth,etc. This is unquestionable established lore.

In this book they are religious zealots, more in keeping with the Black Templars. The depiction is different from even the most recent books to feature Ultras - Dark Imperium, Crusade, etc

 

Gotta give this point to Brother Ishagu. The Ultramarines are keepers of the Imperial Truth. This fact is well documented in both GW game lore and BL literature. Perhaps Chaplain Helios represents a schism in Ultramarine orothodoxy (which would be a interesting plot line to explore) or it could just be lack of research on the part of Mr. St. Martin and poor proofing by the editor...… my money is on the later

 

  

 

Humans drag the torpedos into the firing chamber because during the Heresy demon scrapcode prevented integrated and automated systems from working and firing. It’s discussed in one of last years shorts. The reason imperial computing systems can often be analog is because of the code, as well. Imperial ships fire torpedos several stories high, and without automated arms they have to rely on manual labor.


Edit: Ishagu clearly doesn’t remember the lore used to be like that and changed and is now coming back to the Ultramarines being ritualistic.

 

Humanity as the grist of the Imperium is also well established in the lore and not just outdated fluff. This sort of scene is the rule and not the exception on Imperial Navy starships..... but to be fair, this may not be the case on Astartes ships. Most sources on Astartes ships point out that crew sizes are about half that of comparable Imperial Navy ships. This strongly implies a greater degree of automation, which makes sense as Space Marine chapters don't have as free a hand to press gang large numbers of Imperial Citizens as the Navy does (unless you are the Carcharodons….. but even they only impress whole worlds in the backwaters of the Imperium).

 

In spite of these few glaring inconsistencies, I found this book highly entertaining…. good story, good characters, good battle scenes, etc. I give Mr. St. Martin a solid B+ on readability but a B- on research.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just finished Of Honour and Iron and I liked it. It had some nice inciteful moments..... Brother Captain Numitor's comments to Seneca on the mixed acceptance of the Primaris among the Astartes old guard and Guilliman's conversation with Yorick's Marius Gage's skull being particularly good. However, Chaplain Helios praying to the "Deus Imperator" was a head scratching moment and seemed our of character for the Ultramarines.

 

And parts of it will be, like the gun carriage, the elevator from the magazine, and the arms hoisting the torpedo into place going be the old art work.

 

 

 

Well, the Ultramarines are literally famed for being paragons of reason, logic, truth,etc. This is unquestionable established lore.

 

In this book they are religious zealots, more in keeping with the Black Templars. The depiction is different from even the most recent books to feature Ultras - Dark Imperium, Crusade, etc

Gotta give this point to Brother Ishagu. The Ultramarines are keepers of the Imperial Truth. This fact is well documented in both GW game lore and BL literature. Perhaps Chaplain Helios represents a schism in Ultramarine orothodoxy (which would be a interesting plot line to explore) or it could just be lack of research on the part of Mr. St. Martin and poor proofing by the editor...… my money is on the later

 

 

Humans drag the torpedos into the firing chamber because during the Heresy demon scrapcode prevented integrated and automated systems from working and firing. It’s discussed in one of last years shorts. The reason imperial computing systems can often be analog is because of the code, as well. Imperial ships fire torpedos several stories high, and without automated arms they have to rely on manual labor.

 

 

Edit: Ishagu clearly doesn’t remember the lore used to be like that and changed and is now coming back to the Ultramarines being ritualistic.

Humanity as the grist of the Imperium is also well established in the lore and not just outdated fluff. This sort of scene is the rule and not the exception on Imperial Navy starships..... but to be fair, this may not be the case on Astartes ships. Most sources on Astartes ships point out that crew sizes are about half that of comparable Imperial Navy ships. This strongly implies a greater degree of automation, which makes sense as Space Marine chapters don't have as free a hand to press gang large numbers of Imperial Citizens as the Navy does (unless you are the Carcharodons….. but even they only impress whole worlds in the backwaters of the Imperium).

 

In spite of these few glaring inconsistencies, I found this book highly entertaining…. good story, good characters, good battle scenes, etc. I give Mr. St. Martin a solid B+ on readability but a B- on research.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hey there Brother Marshal Rohr...… pardon my denseness but I'm not quite sure why you quoted my post. Clarify please..... I am a lunkhead you know

[Marshal Rohr]

In response to what you had said: Parts of it will be, like the gun carriage, the elevator from the magazine, and the arms hoisting the torpedo into place going be the old art work. 



They used to have a picture of the inside of a space marine gun.

[Ascanius]

I think Ian St. Martin did an excellent job of sprinkling in all the little horrible details that go unremarked-upon by even the "noble" or "heroic" characters - slaves, servitors, et cetera.

 

I agree that it's quite incongruous to see Ultramarines following the Imperial Cult, but 1) I don't really care , 2) it's so early on in the Indomitus Crusade that members of the Eighth Company have never encountered Primaris Marines before, so if I were forced to reconcile it I'd suggest that the Eighth, or at least part of it overseen by Helios, has taken on the Imperial Cult where the chapter as a whole has not.

 

That said, I disagree with Ishagu that the Ultramarines of 40K are supposed to be ultra-rationalist. All Space Marines have their own chapter "cults", venerating their Primarchs, even if they're not necessarily in accord with the Imperial Cult of the masses.

 

Making pilgrimages to the body of the Primarch and venerating the relics of the chapter are not just matters of secular respect for the past, you know?