Starting a Templars army

[templargdt]

Templars-

 

I keep trying to start a templars army and I cannot decide what to do.  What is most effective, mechanized, on foot, or deep strike? 

 

The way I envision to do Templars is either

 

1.  Foot based with a Captain, Crusader Helm, Rites of War and massed troops moving up the board, along with Helbrect for assault bonus

 

2.  Deep strike based with some scouts for initial table space, drop in Jump Troops and Terminators (seems like a poor option now with the new restricts on deployment) 

 

3.  Mechanized with Rhinos.  Land Raiders seem over priced, Repulsors seem okay but Primaris assault options are terrible.  I'd love to do Storm Ravens but they seem too easy to kill.

 

 

I keep thinking about an Army something like...

 

Battalion

Helbrect

Lieutenant with JP

3x 5 Scouts with SRs, HBs (Hellfire Shells, objective camp, snipe characters)

 

Battalion

Captain with JP, Crusader's Helm (Warlord, Rites of War trait)

Emperor's Champion

3x 5 Scouts (Grab deployment space)

 

Aux Detachment

Culuxes (Anti-witches)

 

Drop Pod in Helbrect, EC, Apothecary, Banner Bearer and some other stuff.  Fill out with lots of Elites to either deep strike and charge or march up the board.

 

Thanks!

 

[Schlitzaf]

Okay let me say this, I’ll try and elaborate elsewhere and hopefully have an article posted on Implausible soon. But that list bluntly put shows all the hallmarks of terrible space marine armies.

 

MSU is a completely and terrible way to build an army except for specific builds. Those specific builds are Razorspam and Intercessor build. Second you need buddy pair MSU squads which should always be kitted out for melee. Secondly, Helbret + Captain too expensive and I don’t see any Cenos. If you want to a Helbrect list, you need high volume elite units. A helbrect list can effectively use LRC. Two LRC and Helbrect is 800 points. Throw two terminator squads you leave your self 800 points. Now those 800 points could be a Ceno + Champion or Castallen combo then three Rhino mounted or two Rhino Mounted Crusades And Two FauxDevies. Or three Razorospam Fau Devi.

 

Your best setup would like be the 2 9 Man Crusaders in Rhino + Two Squads of a Faux Devjes. I’ll write a bit more in the morning to explain why MSU here is bad. And the Value of LRC. Any case sorry if this comes off as harsh, but the main thing before I go I to the reasons tomorrow.

 

Understand MSU has its place in lists. But not how you are using them. Here in particular your list is not use them exceptionally well.

[redmapa]

Personally the list thats given me the most success is a Mechanized list supported by some Vanguard Veterans. A couple of Rhinos with Crusaders running forward at max speed will make sure that by turn 2 you will be stuck in the glory of combat with one or more units, the VVs can deep strike or run behind the Rhinos and you should have enough threats gunning at your opponent that he should be overwhelmed by the ammount of units you are throwing at him.

 

2-3 Rhinos, some Razorbacks, couple of hard hitting assault units is a good start for an army.

[Medjugorje]

Most times i play my BT is full mechanized with lots of rhinos and Razorbacks.

 

Black Tide is a option too.

Your example list is buid upside down. You nee a core with your Characters and stuff and all the scout things are the next stop.

[Schlitzaf]

Basically let us start from top there are three style of Templar list;

1) Black Tide

2) MechRush

3) Crusader Gunline

 

There is another but that is I call a Soup only variation. So let’s focus on each of these lists, I’ll presume BlackTide and MechRush.

 

BlackTide- I think most competitive style of Templars, is 2-3 Tide Squads (13-16), supported by 2-3 fire support squads (fauxDevi, Intercessor or 8-10 man Crusader), with Cenos, and Deep Strikers. The Black Tide hardest by Beta Rules

 

RhinoRush - 3-5 Rhino Mounted Crusaders, 2-4 Mounted Razors, with 0-2 LRCrusaders. This is likely one of the better and most reliable of the three setups. Reason I call tide stronger I’ll discuss elsewhere.

 

CrusaderGunline - the classic competitive, it’s two variants footwalking with 6-8 FauxDevies, Double Battlelion. Or 4-6 Razorspam FauxDevies. It’s the weakest of three competitive, but the most consistent. It’s one that makes one of the more explicit advantages of our Crusader squads.

 

1) Black Tide: The BlackTide is the most ‘competitive’ beside the allied only Templar. It’s the one that provides the most. Counting at around 800 Points (1000 if you take also take the things need to fill a Vangaurd), it’s cheap and gives 50-60 Wounds of Marines. Depending on setup around 45-60 SM Models on table. Which is doiuble most Power Armored Bodies. The purpose here, is that these units, are taking board control and being ‘chaffy’. Most equivalent units, are weaker and will lose in melee to our Crusader + Ceno combination. It also has the most variant matchup, being a full horde list. A mono tide, likely be two Battlelion, and Vangaurd. 4 Tide Crusaders, 2-4 Fire Support, Marshall (or High Marshall), two Castallens, Champion, And 2-4 bully squads (Inceptor, Reivar, Biker and Assault Marines). Then 2-3 Hammer (Terminator & Vangaurd) style units. It’s weakness comes in why it isn’t slow, you have roughly 14-15 threat range (move 6, reroll charging make 8-9” charge reliable). You cannot easily redeploy. Additionally your morale immune, Cenos, Banner And Marshall, one is three gaurdsman, the other two take a relic and/or warlord slot.

 

BlackTide strength is chaff clearing, and ‘cheap’ marine, basically a tide marines only costs around 12 (Neo+Init/2) points. Every 12 marines you have in your list, you get a second one. Which is partly why tides around 13-15 are preferable. As to comparable squads you have a couple extra wounds. Tide Squads also are only squads to have power weapons for initiates. Because the point for a Power Sword sre relatively inefficient (25% increase of a damage for the model upgraded, for 33% upgrade). In larger tides, the addition of 1 attack Power Sword increased he Squad damage by 2%. And the upgrade (Power Sword) only costs 2% more. So it makes the relative inefficiency of the Power Sword, value natural. The Black tide highlights our advantages and makes best use of our chapter tactic as being way to increase our units mobility. But suffers vs heavy armor.

 

2) Rhino Rush/Mech. Is the other way, it’s less competitive but it’s less skewed. A Rhino Rush setup is better for mono Templar so then Tide. As the tide primary strength is being on ObSec that crushes similar setups from other forces. Rhino Rush has two subvariants. Dakka v Melee. Basically DakkaRush loads up 9-10 man Crusaders with cheap specials/Heavy/stormbolter Neo w/Shotgun And everyone else with Chain&Pistol. Jump out of Rhino, and then dakka followed by charge. DakkaRush is a reactionary setup as you move to respond. MeleeRush instead is similarly sized squads with power weapons (and HoF heavy over 1A Power Weapon normally), plasma gun. This setup are active as instead of responding you are one forcing response.

 

Both setups have high mobility and easier redeployment then tide. And while lack the raw damage a tide can do, it instead focuses on firefights and small engagements across the board. For that reason, Helm and Cenos are rarely seen. If single Battlelion, Marshall + Champion is better because you lack bubbling. The RhinoRush also generally has some hammer units, and can use LRCrusaders. As transports for a tide or terminators. The weakness is generally require two. Also due to for notes lack of bubbling and focusing on elite units over tide to clear enemy, Helbrect excels here. LRC have weakness in this edition, but I’ll discuss why Rhino rushes are good placed for them. The advantages of Crusaders is that they carry enough man power you can deploy your cargo in front of them turn two. Preventing the bumper cargo’ing. Secondly at around 300 points, 2+, T8 IV aside they are just as tough as knights. With double hurricane, and twin assault cannon they put out the dakka equivalent to roughly to around two Razors. And in combination with Crusaders, you can do classic overwatch Rhino absorbtion, followed by charging hammer. Now normally you be that “dumb”. Well maybe, if your hammer unit will either murder the opposing squad, or will do so the following round. Your opponent wants to withdraw. Leaving your raider now able to shoot. And then charging dealing mortal wound. Also position correctly your raider can block los on your hammer squad from enemy gun. Mech can answer everything but tends to lack ‘good’ matchups you’ll do well. But lack the ability to spike, unless your top player material.

 

3) Crusader Gunline, the classic competitive Templar. Basically you abuse the fact our Crusader squads can Heavy/Special/Special And take Lascannon/Plasma/Plasma in three to four squads sometimes six. Then you can Razor them up. Secondly this setup has a powerful melee component, but you have to follow buddy principle, basically two squads stick together. The 5 Man Crusader will have 9 STR4 Attack Melee, to follow their heavy/Special/Special. (Also why I like GravCannon and HvyBolter because moving through traditionally Lascannon/Missile are used. Missiles are just meh this edition). Secondly the Gunline squads run around 100/220 depending if Mounted. But due to focus on Gunline not engaging, you can mix and match. Have 2-3 no Razors, 3-5 with Razors. And a character setup, for double Battlelion will run you around 1400. Meaning you can take 3-5 100-150 point units like Thunderfires, Dreadnought etc. And due it’s nature it’s easy to sidegrade into above two. Replace RazorFajx Devi with Rhino or Tide Squads. It will be weaker as you are not building your army around the Rhino or tide rush it’s easy to sidegrade.

 

As a pure straight up non allied force. This is the best Templar setup. But it’s also the weakest of the three. Period. It lack true mobility, being static, for non razor devied. Razor FauxDevies need to be paired up to be effective. It has the smallest raw body count. So anti-meq can easily table you unless your careful. It doesn’t effectively use any of our benefits beside Crusader Squads. Helm is only moderately useful for Marshall buffing backfield. Helbrect lacks hammer style squads to buff and Grim lacks ‘tide’ center to use his special buff. Cenos besides super cheap anchoring alongside FauxDevies are useless. And given your engagement is going be super close, reroll charge is pointless. The EChampion (and strategem) is used effectively for filling HQ Slots. And the strategem we have best board coverage.

 

Army 4: This is the “So you know this exists” is competitively, Templars are most often used by taking 3 Naked MSU Scouts And Cenos to fill Battlelion, and anchor backfield. And then able to deny turn 1 Powers. While tide is also generally best used for soup instead a mono list. This style of list is pointless for mono Templar where the tide still has its advantages (notably tide can play dynamic objectives better than Rush and Gunline).

[templargdt]

That's very insightful, thank you Schlitzaf. 

 

I don't understand the use of cenobyte servitors.  Sure, autopass morale is awesome and clearly key for black tide.  What I don't see how you keep them alive, I'm obviously missing something.  Did they gain the character keyword in some update somewhere?  Are you just keeping them out of line of sight somehow?  Thank you.

[Schlitzaf]

They are dirt cheap being 6 points and fill one slot in Vangaurd or Brigade Detachment slots. And 12” aura means keeping them in range is easy enough and also it takes quite bit of shooting to put them down relative to their cost. And I’ll repeat they are 6 points, the cheapest unit in the game.

[templargdt]

Ah, so that makes sense.  You expect them to get shot up, but maybe keep them back enough from the aura bubble that small arms fire is out of range.  Makes sense.

Anyone using Relic Contemptors from Forge World?  One, it's a great model, and two, the I:FOTAA version is a flat 9" movement, so you're fast and then can assault.  And you're a 2+ to hit.  Also, the Chaplain dreadnought is a 9W character model, and it gives a strength bonus.  Not cheap but seems like a great option for Templars.  

[Tokugawa]

Ah, so that makes sense. You expect them to get shot up, but maybe keep them back enough from the aura bubble that small arms fire is out of range. Makes sense.

 

Anyone using Relic Contemptors from Forge World? One, it's a great model, and two, the I:FOTAA version is a flat 9" movement, so you're fast and then can assault. And you're a 2+ to hit. Also, the Chaplain dreadnought is a 9W character model, and it gives a strength bonus. Not cheap but seems like a great option for Templars.

FW index would give you some "real" dreadnoughts. They are expensive, and not super-competitive, but they are fairly good. Most codex dreads are awkward.

[gmaleron]

Where do you get Cenobyte Servitors at model wise? 

[Marshal Mattias]

You can find them in the box with Grimaldus, or you can have fun converting your own from all manner of priest/tech/fantasy looking bits :)

[templargdt]

You could probably do good conversions based on a box of skitarii.  Admech is great for stuff like that.

[templargdt]

Anyone had any experience using a Chaplain dreadnought in their Templars?  Seems fluffy and also very useful.  Character, so you have protection plus your 5++/6+++, gives the stength bonus in CC, etc.

[Tokugawa]

Anyone had any experience using a Chaplain dreadnought in their Templars? Seems fluffy and also very useful. Character, so you have protection plus your 5++/6+++, gives the stength bonus in CC, etc.

I have. As a character, he can shoot lascannons with 2+bs all the day, and keep untouched most time of a game. If enemy caught him in combat, he can also swing back with DCCW.

 

But he is expensive. After the release of Helverin, I don't bring him to play.

[Marshal Laeroth]

It looks like Schlitzaf has a really good overall description of where our chapter lies in its playstyles.  If you build the army right, you can have a reasonably competitive list on the board.  However, with that being said, we do not get some of the premiere close combat rules that some of the other new codices have received (e.g. Blood Angels/Space Wolves).  Nevertheless, our chapter tactics are underrated and when leveraged correctly, you can have reasonable success with the list.  Top tier?  No.  But certainly middle of the pack with upside (and even higher if you utilize allies).