How many Space Wolves are there, anyway?

[Ratherdashing]

Most of my understanding of Space Wolves comes from the 5th and now the 8th edition books. But reading the lore of the new book got me thinking about the actual size of the chapter and specifically the number of Wolf Lords, Battle Leaders, and Wolf Priests, and how this interacts with players armies.

 

If I start an army and use Ultramarines rules, and make my own character with the Chapter Master stratagem, then I can just say my army is not Ultramarines, but their successor, the True Blues. Then I can have up to 1000 Marines in that army before it breaks the lore (I'm not sure how many Captains I could actually have).

 

But without successors the Space Wolf options get more limited. You can't make a character and call him a Chapter Master because Logan is the only Chapter Master. But what confused me is Wolf Lords. Rulewise they are the equivalent of Captains. But the codex makes it sound like the only Wolf Lords are the Twelve, which all have names and personalities and thus you couldn't just make up your own. Or are there sub Wolf Lords? Or if there are only 12, does that mean there's only 24 WGBLs?

 

I'm also confused about the total number of the chapter. There can be only 1000 Ultramarines but with dozens of successors at 1000 each, there are plenty of "Ultramarines" to go around. Leman Russ allowed his chapter to exceed 1000 without being divided, but are we talking four or five thousand, or tens of thousands to match the other chapters with their successors?

 

I know the lore numbers don't reflect on tabletop (since more Marines probably die on the tables across the real world in a year than exist in the 40k world). But it would seem a little weird if players were breaking the lore any time they make a Wolf Lord that's not named and geared to be one of the 12.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

While there are no true successor chapters there are lost companies. These are great companies that for one reason or another have left the fold of the space wolves and now roam the galaxy. They are basically successor great companies that you could fashion how you like but not successors in the like crimson fist sense where they are a new chapter made from the geneseed. Reasons for the lost companies are only limited by your imagination. Extreme disagree mentioned with the Wolf lord, on a quest hit list in the warp and deposited so far from the gang the cannot return,etc.

 

As for numbers those are pretty unknown. Before our recent beatings,the space wolves had maybe 1500-2000 marines (kind of a guess based on old stated numbers of a GC having approximately 100-200 marines)

 

IIRC Battle leaders are picked from the wolf guard on an as needed basis, basically because the lord cant be everywhere, so while the wolf lord may favor 1 or 2 for this role I was under the impression it was a temporary position created as needed.

 

Hope this helped

[Bloody Legionnaire]

While there are no true successor chapters there are lost companies. These are great companies that for one reason or another have left the fold of the space wolves and now roam the galaxy. They are basically successor great companies that you could fashion how you like but not successors in the like crimson fist sense where they are a new chapter made from the geneseed. Reasons for the lost companies are only limited by your imagination. Extreme disagree mentioned with the Wolf lord, on a quest hit list in the warp and deposited so far from the gang the cannot return,etc.

 

As for numbers those are pretty unknown. Before our recent beatings,the space wolves had maybe 1500-2000 marines (kind of a guess based on old stated numbers of a GC having approximately 100-200 marines)

 

IIRC Battle leaders are picked from the wolf guard on an as needed basis, basically because the lord cant be everywhere, so while the wolf lord may favor 1 or 2 for this role I was under the impression it was a temporary position created as needed.

 

Hope this helped

In the last edition codex it showed a breakdown of Ragnar Blackmanes Greay Company organization. He has a WGBL, his second in command, named 'Olvec the Wise.' And then his Wolf Guard, the 'Black Pelts,' are their own individual unit. I'm sure each Wolf Lord in a Great Company has their second in command because as you stated the Lord can't be everywhere. If they Great Company is being tasked with numerous different missions I'm sure they probably divide up the Great Company's WG to lead when necessary. 

 

 

 

If I start an army and use Ultramarines rules, and make my own character with the Chapter Master stratagem, then I can just say my army is not Ultramarines, but their successor, the True Blues. Then I can have up to 1000 Marines in that army before it breaks the lore (I'm not sure how many Captains I could actually have).

 

But without successors the Space Wolf options get more limited. You can't make a character and call him a Chapter Master because Logan is the only Chapter Master. But what confused me is Wolf Lords. Rulewise they are the equivalent of Captains. But the codex makes it sound like the only Wolf Lords are the Twelve, which all have names and personalities and thus you couldn't just make up your own. Or are there sub Wolf Lords? Or if there are only 12, does that mean there's only 24 WGBLs?

 

 

 

 

The Space Wolves in organization are nothing like a Chapter so you can't really compare the two. A Space Wolves Great Company may appear similar to a Company in Organization, but each Great Company has their own resources that compare to an entire Chapters resources. There is no direct comparison between the two and a Wolf Lord can almost be compared to the Chapter Master in their own right with each individual Great Company having some likeness to a Chapter. Logan Grimnar is the Great Wolf, in charge of his own Great Company as well as being in Charge of the Space Wolves as a whole. They are a Chapter in the strict definition that all the Legions were reorganized into Chapters.. but they have little to nothing in common with the other Chapters of Space Marines. 

[Stoic Raptor]

Guilliman did away with the old structure of the Codex Astartes - now even the Ultramarines have more than 10 companies (I think it's 11 or 12 now).

 

As for the Space Wolves, there is now at least one Successor Chapter - the Wolfspear.

The Wolves have always had more than 10 Companies and each likely has more soldiers than a Codex company would.

[Karhedron]

GW has always shied away from providing a number for the Space Wolves IIRC. They have 12 Great Companies rather than the 10 of a standard codex chapter. Also, the 3rd edition Index Astartes stated that those Great Companies are also larger than a standard Marine Company and they can function fully autonomously of the Chapter as a whole. A regular Marine Company will need support from the Chapter as a whole periodically (to induct new recruits, perform major repairs to wargear and vehicles that cannot be handled in the field). Great Companies are large enough that they do not need to do this and can function independently indefinitely (although presumably they can still only recruit from Fenris).

 

In my head-cannon, a GC numbered around 200 Marines which would have made the Wolves between 2-3000 prior to the Wrath of Magnus.

[Guest Triszin]

one other thing on greatcompanies.

 

I read in a few places that Sometimes greatcompanies go on prolongued campaigns, and after a few hundred years of no contact, presumed lost. then occasionally one shows up.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Last actual figures I saw had Ragnar and Logans great companies at around the 250 mark and the others varying in size from 100 plus.

 

Bare in mind the make up of this companies could be vastly different depending of the temperament of the Lord.

 

Such as a hot blooded gun ho Wolford might have a large company full of blood claws that suffers greatly from attrition.

 

A sneaky git of a lord might have a realitively small veteran company of long fangs and grey hunters because he doesn't need may youths to fill out his conpany

 

Plus the number of recruits you may receive might also depend on your current standing in the chapter. Grimnar gets first pick of recruits as he is the great wolf, Ragnar star is in the accendance so he gets second pick, etc

 

Edit.

Although given the influx of primaris, all bets are off

 

I would have thought there were more than just a 1000 wolf primaris tho so I wonder what happened to the other 'wolf primaris chapters'

[Wulf Vengis]

All of the above is correct.

 

Companies that are wiped out, go on extended campaign or become lost in the warp are eventually replaced by the great wolf who calls for a vote (citation needed as i can't remember where this is stated perhaps Valerian will pop in and assist). This vote determines who will lead the new great company.

Sometimes a lost company will returnand what happens to the returning company our their replacement is left mostly unsaid in the fluff but i believe the general consensus is that the returning company or their replacement company are folded back into each other or folded into the other great companies in order replace casualties and fill the ranks.

 

As for actual numbers... Get that question out of here you agent of the Inquisition.

[Bulwyf]

Frankly I've always thought of us having several thousand Wolves since we have no successor chapters. There's no limits to Great Company size. You toss in the missing or "presumed dead" GS that you can bring back in fluff or for your gaming needs that adds even more. Finally you have the Primaris effect which the fluff on the Ultra founding makes it seem that Bobby G was handing out full chapter sized reinforcements to everyone. 

[b1soul]

This is my understanding...

 

Late Great Crusade: 80,000

Post-Prospero: - 25,000

Post-Alaxxes: - ??? (minus low tens of thousands)

Post-Wolfsbane: - ??? (minus thousands)

Post-Yarant: -??? (minus low tens of thousands)

Post-Heresy: around 2,000?

 

EDIT: I think 2,000 to 2,500 sounds about right for modern SW before Wrath of Magnus

 

There was also the Wolf Brothers chapter, which was disbanded/put down

[Vash113]

Well before the whole Invasion of Fenris and the Fall of Cadia and the Primaris Space Marines we did have a relatively good idea of the size of the chapter. The Champions of Fenris was the largest at exactly 200 strong, the Blackmanes came a close second with 188, the Sons of Morkai at 119, the Firehowlers at 148, the Ironwolves at 119, the Deathwolves at 100, and that's half of the Chapter's companies at 874 marines. The average comes to about 145 but this does include the two largest Great Companies so if we eliminate them and average the remaining companies the average is about 121 which would put the total strength at just over 1600. That is before counting the ranks of the priesthoods not serving with the Great Companies, Rune Priests, Iron Priests, Wolf Priests, Dreadnoughts, pilots and drivers permanently assigned to the armory or to garrisons like Garm, the couple dozen odd Wolf Blade and so on and so forth. All of that probably adds about 100-150 more for a total of around 1750 Space Marines in the chapter, about half again the size of a Codex chapter at full strength with support and this is all just a guestimate.

However now... who knows. The Ironwolves and Firehowlers Great Companies were essentially wiped out, the chapter was massively depleted from the invasion of Fenris, Cadia and other recent campaigns but the chapter's ranks have also been swollen by the Wulfen, the couple hundred 13th Company saved from the portal labyrinth of Prospero, and the Primaris Space Wolves who could number anywhere from a few hundred to a thousand or more. After all there were 100,000 Primaris marines at the start of the Indomitus Crusade and about a tenth of that should have been Space Wolves. Even counting the high attrition rate of the Crusade about three to five thousand should have been left at the end and only one chapter, the Wolfspear was created as a Space Wolves successor during the Ultima Founding that we know of. There could easily have been several thousand Primaris Marines assigned to the chapter, scores, potentially hundreds of Wulfen and the rescued non-wulfen 13th Company that numbered several hundred.

So... who knows. At this point I would conservatively put the Chapter at well over 2000 strong when you take in the wulfen and other rescued 13th company.

Man I just realized I haven't updated the Space Wolves Comprehensive History in around three years... there's been so much added, might have to make that my project for next month.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

So if we take Vashs numbers as about right (I'm in agreement that it sounds about right)

And we use the same lay out as the space wolves for new primaris wolf chapters

 

We should have between about 3 and 5 primaris successors.

 

We know about the Wolfspears. Rearly could have done with hearing about what happened with the other successors

 

I get the impression from the codex that many make a 'spiritual pilgrimage' to fenris to undertake the trials and mark themselves as true wolves

[Valerian]

All of the above is correct.

 

Companies that are wiped out, go on extended campaign or become lost in the warp are eventually replaced by the great wolf who calls for a vote (citation needed as i can't remember where this is stated perhaps Valerian will pop in and assist.

 

<Pops into the Great Hall from out of the Warp>

 

Yeah, that's mentioned in old RT and 2e era fluff in a couple places.  Regarding Chapter size, Vash nailed it.  We had a good thread on this topic (that regularly pops up in here), I think pinned over in the Resources somewhere, at some point.  We had the pre-Indomitus Crusade size pretty well figured out, with extrapolation based on all of the known data points.  Post Primaris, and all of new fluff of the last few years has made all of those figures hazy again, though.

[Waldwolf]

Because the SW are not using half transformed Aspirants in Scoutsquads, there is an other advantage for SW in Numbers compared to the other SM Chapters.

They are counting there Scouts towards the 1000 manpower.