Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[Lemondish]

I playtested the following in a few friendly games - not very scientific, but it was definitely fun! We obviously didn't test them all at once often since we felt a points bump would be necessary to include everything and we didn't have time to figure out what that might look like.

 

* All basic marine bodies now matched Primaris stats (+1 wound, +1 attack) - no change to Primaris stats

* All marine infantry gained Transhuman Physiology (damage caused is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1)

* Primaris bolt weapons were all increased to Str 5

* Bolt guns and chainswords were treated as AP -1

* All marine infantry gained Bolter Drill, but we changed it from the current IF stratagem to a passive buff that added an extra shot at half range (like the cadre fireblade with Tau)

* Finally, we made Terminators 2+ BS and WS, along with changing the Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon to assault 3 and assault 6 respectively

[Prot]

I playtested the following in a few friendly games - not very scientific, but it was definitely fun! We obviously didn't test them all at once often since we felt a points bump would be necessary to include everything and we didn't have time to figure out what that might look like.

 

* All basic marine bodies now matched Primaris stats (+1 wound, +1 attack) - no change to Primaris stats

* All marine infantry gained Transhuman Physiology (damage caused is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1)

* Primaris bolt weapons were all increased to Str 5

* Bolt guns and chainswords were treated as AP -1

* All marine infantry gained Bolter Drill, but we changed it from the current IF stratagem to a passive buff that added an extra shot at half range (like the cadre fireblade with Tau)

* Finally, we made Terminators 2+ BS and WS, along with changing the Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon to assault 3 and assault 6 respectively

 

Interesting. I was just saying to a friend during a game that I find if you could take a few nuances from Kill Team and port it over to 40K table top there might be some fixes in there.

 

I like the ideas except the Terminators... it just feels like something is still lacking there. I'd love to say an additional wound on top of Transhuman Physiology but I don't know. (I'd probably go back to 2 specials per 5 man squad and that would help a few things out as well.)

[Closet Skeleton]

When was it released last year ?

 

December or end of november.

 

The big FAQ is supposed to be this month, Chapter Approved is also probably already at the printers but the FAQ may be delayed like the last one was so the FAQ may actually be more up to date than the book released months after it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good to know thanks.

 

And guardsmen are grossly undercosted for what they can do... e.g., S4 Catachans.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think the most that can be hoped for is new rules regarding soup, and a few units come down in price.

 

And honestly, that might be all that needs to happen (or at least, I'd prefer to see where that gets us rather than overcorrect).

 

Assault Marines do not need to be 6 pts.  That thread was on Dakka and pretty much everyone agreed it was OTT  troll used by OP to get some dialog and visibility going.  On the other hand, 12-13 pt Assault Marines (with jump pack) would be about right.

[MARK0SIAN]

Good to know thanks.

 

And guardsmen are grossly undercosted for what they can do... e.g., S4 Catachans.

But they’re not really that good. 4 points for a single wound S3, T3, BS4+ 5+Sv model armies with an S3 Rapid Fire 1 weapon.

 

Their base cost is misleading because theyre only formidable for two reasons: they can be well supported and you pay for that support in points. If they want an order That’s an officer you pay for and you’re only paying for the order, the officer himself isn’t worth much. The other thing that makes them formidable is not their fault. It’s the fact that weapons which should be good at killing scores of weak chaff are utter rubbish in this edition. If you still had access to templates in 8th not a single person would be complaining about Guard.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Good to know thanks.

 

And guardsmen are grossly undercosted for what they can do... e.g., S4 Catachans.

But they’re not really that good. 4 points for a single wound S3, T3, BS4+ 5+Sv model armies with an S3 Rapid Fire 1 weapon.

 

Their base cost is misleading because theyre only formidable for two reasons: they can be well supported and you pay for that support in points. If they want an order That’s an officer you pay for and you’re only paying for the order, the officer himself isn’t worth much. The other thing that makes them formidable is not their fault. It’s the fact that weapons which should be good at killing scores of weak chaff are utter rubbish in this edition. If you still had access to templates in 8th not a single person would be complaining about Guard.

 

 

And abuse-by-soup.

[Lemondish]

I playtested the following in a few friendly games - not very scientific, but it was definitely fun! We obviously didn't test them all at once often since we felt a points bump would be necessary to include everything and we didn't have time to figure out what that might look like.

* All basic marine bodies now matched Primaris stats (+1 wound, +1 attack) - no change to Primaris stats

* All marine infantry gained Transhuman Physiology (damage caused is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1)

* Primaris bolt weapons were all increased to Str 5

* Bolt guns and chainswords were treated as AP -1

* All marine infantry gained Bolter Drill, but we changed it from the current IF stratagem to a passive buff that added an extra shot at half range (like the cadre fireblade with Tau)

* Finally, we made Terminators 2+ BS and WS, along with changing the Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon to assault 3 and assault 6 respectively

 

Interesting. I was just saying to a friend during a game that I find if you could take a few nuances from Kill Team and port it over to 40K table top there might be some fixes in there.

 

I like the ideas except the Terminators... it just feels like something is still lacking there. I'd love to say an additional wound on top of Transhuman Physiology but I don't know. (I'd probably go back to 2 specials per 5 man squad and that would help a few things out as well.)[/quot]

 

We came to the same conclusion with Terminators, though it solved their mobility issues and thus made their performance better without deep strike, we still felt a bump in wound count was still warranted.

 

We were so focused on their mobility because we hoped two wounds with reduced damage would be enough to make them more resilient. But we also wanted them to be elite and accurate from range if they basically dug in somewhere, which meant we had to change their weapon profile to ensure there was elite firepower here unless you wanted to move.

[Kallas]

On the other hand, 12-13 pt Assault Marines (with jump pack) would be about right.

12pt AM would still be crap. Tactical Marines with worse output and no ObSec for some extra speed. AM (and Tacticals, and all other SM...) need more than just a small points tweak. A points tweak as part of an improvement, sure, but not alone.

[Ishagu]

Primaris are specifically described as being physically superior and closer to the Primarchs.

 

If Marines get an extra wound and attack Primaris will need 3, or even 4.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Good to know thanks.

 

And guardsmen are grossly undercosted for what they can do... e.g., S4 Catachans.

But they’re not really that good. 4 points for a single wound S3, T3, BS4+ 5+Sv model armies with an S3 Rapid Fire 1 weapon.

 

Their base cost is misleading because theyre only formidable for two reasons: they can be well supported and you pay for that support in points. If they want an order That’s an officer you pay for and you’re only paying for the order, the officer himself isn’t worth much. The other thing that makes them formidable is not their fault. It’s the fact that weapons which should be good at killing scores of weak chaff are utter rubbish in this edition. If you still had access to templates in 8th not a single person would be complaining about Guard.

 

 

Do you Lucky 32 bruh ?!

 

And serious [iF] means nothing - absolutely nothing .

[Ishagu]

Points changes can make a huge difference but only in terms of quantity.

 

40K’s tagline should already be:

 

8th edition - quantity over quality

 

And this applies to pretty much every aspect of the game. I really don’t want to see anything that pushes us even further in that direction. I hope CA does make sweeping changes to the rules and stats but I think it unlikely.

 

Some things undoubtedly need to come down in price but i want the units to feel like space marines, not like I’m throwing enough conscripts at something that they eventually run out of bullets.

Good points here.

It can be rationalised however. It's a new, Dark Imperium. The stakes have risen, entire chapters are wiped out.

 

Perhaps GW want the game to be more brutal. Astartes are getting killed and wars have escalated. It's one way to justify more Marines on the table and higher casualties. In general armies are bigger terms of bodies this edition. The elite stuff is more pricey however, and it needs adjustment.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

Good to know thanks.

 

And guardsmen are grossly undercosted for what they can do... e.g., S4 Catachans.

But they’re not really that good. 4 points for a single wound S3, T3, BS4+ 5+Sv model armies with an S3 Rapid Fire 1 weapon.

 

Their base cost is misleading because theyre only formidable for two reasons: they can be well supported and you pay for that support in points. If they want an order That’s an officer you pay for and you’re only paying for the order, the officer himself isn’t worth much. The other thing that makes them formidable is not their fault. It’s the fact that weapons which should be good at killing scores of weak chaff are utter rubbish in this edition. If you still had access to templates in 8th not a single person would be complaining about Guard.

Do you Lucky 32 bruh ?!

 

And serious [iF] means nothing - absolutely nothing .

But lucky 32 (and I agree that’s annoying) is not evidence that the individual guardsmen are undercosted. It’s evidence that the CP system is broken and that the rules around allies need tightening up.

 

I think guardsmen are costed correctly at the moment, it’s the astartes and a lot of other things that are overcosted.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When you take orders into account they are seriously undercosted.

[Ishagu]

Gotta love Catachans. Faster than Assault Marines. Same Strength, more attacks, better guns.

 

Less than a third of the cost.

You could make the argument that an Assault Marine really should be 6 points. A Regular Tactical could be 8, a Primaris 10.

[Panzer]

When you take orders into account they are seriously undercosted.

 

That's kinda the point of force multiplier. Otherwise they'd be seriously overcosted without orders. ^^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The point is they are undercosted.

[Wargamer]

Point costs should assume some level of competence from the player, and when you assume basic competence Guard are indeed under-costed. 

[chapter master 454]

Yea, Catachans really do like to cheese it especially when they are faster than assault marines too (what? my 32 guys cost 180 points and can cross the board in record time. Meanwhile Assault marines of 10 cost 160 or something like that with nothing to them hmmm).

 

I would rather see additions to marines to make them worth their points than removing points from them. I mean, we are supposed to be elite not many. Transhuman should really buff our ability to tank shots from lesser firearms, so anything str3 or less should have issues along with anything that is AP1 or less we should be fairly set again (getting +1 to our armour save would be nice). Just give us +1 attack would do wonders as well. Assault marines need something to make them stand out but really they are just vanguard but worse so they need something that benefits them. We need to I think create a divide between assault and vanguard units as they are too similar and any benefit you give to assaults should be given to vanguard. Possibly assaults not be a straight up melee only unit and having access to more special weapons and being a rapid moving unit that provides fire support on the move. Maybe have it so their wargear is quite competitive where they have a bolt pistol, chainsword and special weapon option. Make them more potent. On the topic of that, all marines should have bolt pistol and chainsword as standard. If not chainsword then a melee weapon with the same effect.

 

Marines really just need buffed in their gear, options and stats. As much as a points decrease is the easiest, I would prefer if they did go a different route and actually buffed the units to make them worth the points.

[CCE1981]

Gotta love Catachans. Faster than Assault Marines. Same Strength, more attacks, better guns.

 

Less than a third of the cost.

You could make the argument that an Assault Marine really should be 6 points. A Regular Tactical could be 8, a Primaris 10.

I don’t have that Codex handy, how are Catachans faster than assault Marines?

[Ishagu]

They can move twice and advance twice a turn, Potentially 20" across the board

[Ishagu]

I think we have to be realistic. There will be no change to wargear or stats of Astartes. The SW book only just came out. They will have to update SIX different codecies just to change the stats of the LOYALISTS, and it would involve multitudes of datasheets across the books. Only way it's happening now is with 9th edition - There is 0% chance of this happening in CA or soon after.

 

Marines don't feel tough enough on the table? Forget it. There are Primaris and Custodes now, the stats won't changed because it will ripple into other units, etc etc

 

Point adjustments, tweaks to chapter tactics a new stratagems are possible. We can be sure that there will be favourable point adjustments. If we're lucky they'll alter chapter tactics and give us new stratagems, maybe alter some weapon profiles.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hell, apply Tactics to vehicles. I realize that's not a straight port for all Chapters, but everyone else gets them.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think we have to be realistic. There will be no change to wargear or stats of Astartes. The SW book only just came out. They will have to update SIX different codecies just to change the stats of the LOYALISTS, and it would involve multitudes of datasheets across the books. Only way it's happening now is with 9th edition - There is 0% chance of this happening in CA or soon after.

 

Marines don't feel tough enough on the table? Forget it. There are Primaris and Custodes now, the stats won't changed because it will ripple into other units, etc etc

 

Point adjustments, tweaks to chapter tactics a new stratagems are possible. We can be sure that there will be favourable point adjustments. If we're lucky they'll alter chapter tactics and give us new stratagems, maybe alter some weapon profiles.

 

Ishagu and I both live in the cold realm called reality.

 

You guys are seriously on drugs if you think the Marine stat line is going to be totally revamped, or wargear reconsidered. It is not going to happen. You are setting yourself up for massive disappointment.

 

And, yes, I understand that Marines are currently about 60%, point-for-point, as combat effective as Guardsman, and about 75%, point-for-point, as durable as Guardsmen, which means that Marine Profile should start at about 7 or 8 points.  That is also NOT going to happen.  Assault Marines are NOT going to cost, 7, 8, or even 9 pts.  You might be lucky if Tacs and Assaults drop 2 pts off base profile.  Assault Jump Packs MIGHT drop to 2 pts if you are very lucky. Centurions might drop 20 pts. if you believe in Christmas.  Is it enough? Probably not.  Will it make me enjoy my Marines more? You betcha.  I get to put more bodies out and I'd be happy with that.

[Panzer]

Marines don't feel tough enough on the table? Forget it. There are Primaris and Custodes now, the stats won't changed because it will ripple into other units, etc etc

 

 

That's pretty much it unfortunately. It sucks but I fully believe that's GWs stance on things and just powers through with it until the Primaris line is better established and more people start switching over.