Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[ProsperoStands]

I hope they continue to support normal marines, at least for a bit.

 

I just can not move past the lore abortion that Primaris are.

[Tokugawa]

Currently GW are writing Codices under such policy: If the model kits don't include the parts of a wargear option, they would just delete the option in a new codex.

 

Intercessors lack special/heavy weapons. They will still lack in 9th,10th...woah.

[point_Zer0]

Some positive info!

Apparently the next chapter approved will be very positive for Astartes. This info has just come from a famed play-tester, but there are no specifics that he can share.

I really hope that it's not some price change once again. It won't change much.

[Tokugawa]

Two problems:

1, SM has the most of amateur players.

2, SM has the most of "old school" players which don't care about meta, just bring models they favor, and refuse to introduce allies.

 

If you throw them into a tournament, they will be losers. With or without a well-written codex, they will be losers.

 

If CA2018 could bring several Marine-based armies to tournament top tables, we can say Marine regain competitiveness. The overall average win rate? It will be low still.

[ProsperoStands]

Suddenly I am so happy that I do not do competitive 40k.

[Brother Crimson]

Yeah it’s mentioned in the podcast that space marines players left have less tendency to soup or tweak at a tournament level. This could explain low win %. However when you get to top 8 of those event they not there too, meaning even good players have hard time.

[CCE1981]

Some positive info!

Apparently the next chapter approved will be very positive for Astartes. This info has just come from a famed play-tester, but there are no specifics that he can share.

 

My cynical side tells me that this will only be things like Loyalist Chainfists only costing as much as Chaos Chainfists. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Two problems:

1, SM has the most of amateur players.

2, SM has the most of "old school" players which don't care about meta, just bring models they favor, and refuse to introduce allies.

 

If you throw them into a tournament, they will be losers. With or without a well-written codex, they will be losers.

 

If CA2018 could bring several Marine-based armies to tournament top tables, we can say Marine regain competitiveness. The overall average win rate? It will be low still.

 

You got any stats to support this?  Marines have the most players....period. That includes noobies and veterans alike, crappy and skilled players.

[Ishagu]

Yeah it’s mentioned in the podcast that space marines players left have less tendency to soup or tweak at a tournament level. This could explain low win %. However when you get to top 8 of those event they not there too, meaning even good players have hard time.

They also point out that the Astartes strategems are rubbish so there's little point in bringing allies that generate CP

Two problems:

1, SM has the most of amateur players.

2, SM has the most of "old school" players which don't care about meta, just bring models they favor, and refuse to introduce allies.

 

If you throw them into a tournament, they will be losers. With or without a well-written codex, they will be losers.

 

If CA2018 could bring several Marine-based armies to tournament top tables, we can say Marine regain competitiveness. The overall average win rate? It will be low still.

Marines have amateur players, they also have 20 year veterans amongst their rank.

[Wargamer]

Which podcast are you referring to?

[Ishagu]

Which podcast are you referring to?

Chapter tactics hosted by Pablo from Frontline Gaming.

 

Worth listening to the first hour of the podcast as they discuss the data in detail. Can't sugar-coat it lol. Here's the link:

 

https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/f/c/cfc0820b5d86b987/CT_79_Stats.mp3?c_id=22941089&cs_id=22941089&expiration=1535537762&hwt=f9ed74286513b1da06e4dc06b950b43c

[D3L]

They were the first Codex, and will likely suck until they're the first new codex for 8th 2.0 or whatever they do next. It's the circle of Astartes.

if one was being optimistic, one would say it's a good job it's not designed for that exact reason, eh?

[D3L]

 

Yeah it’s mentioned in the podcast that space marines players left have less tendency to soup or tweak at a tournament level. This could explain low win %. However when you get to top 8 of those event they not there too, meaning even good players have hard time.

They also point out that the Astartes strategems are rubbish so there's little point in bringing allies that generate CP

Two problems:

1, SM has the most of amateur players.

2, SM has the most of "old school" players which don't care about meta, just bring models they favor, and refuse to introduce allies.

 

If you throw them into a tournament, they will be losers. With or without a well-written codex, they will be losers.

 

If CA2018 could bring several Marine-based armies to tournament top tables, we can say Marine regain competitiveness. The overall average win rate? It will be low still.

Marines have amateur players, they also have 20 year veterans amongst their rank.

 

it doesn't really matter, the waac players are leaving fortunately for other pastures, like monopoly and munchkin, fortunately this means it'll be a decade or two before they rejoin the kreigsspiel scene after that, marines will improve dramatically by virtue of everyone not hopping over to the latest hotness 

[Captain Idaho]

As I've said elsewhere - this data confirms what we already know.

 

Competitive gaming isn't the be all and end all of the hobby of course but it's a good indicator of the state of the game - after all it trickles down hill.

 

Now, Codex Space Marines needs amendments as I'm fully in support of (I did make a feedback topic recently ;) ) but GW seems to be supporting Primaris at the expense of other elements of Codex Space Marines. And Primaris just aren't competetive.

[Ishagu]

Where is that conclusion coming from? There are no Primaris only stratagems, the vast majority of the codex is focused on the classic Astartes.

 

I think it's true that GW will ultimately focus more on Primaris but that time hasn't come yet.

I win more than half of my games using a Primaris force at tournament level, but that could be due to luck, individual skills or favourable match ups.

[Captain Idaho]

You are a funny button, mate. You've made 2 new topics talking about how Space Marines aren't cutting it competitive speaking, explained that the data doesn't lie, have said Primaris are the future and a great success but can't accept a correlation in increased usage of Primaris Marines by players and the lack of competitive advantage of the army.

 

Bottom line is Primaris, outside paper rock scissors of 25-30 Hellblasters and Guilliman and Repulsors, can't compete because they have models just as easy to take down as regular Marines against many opponents yet cost more. Everything does multiple wounds or else overkills so hard (20 Genestealers etc) that Primaris die.

 

Either accept Primaris are undergunned and not competitive or don't eh.

 

Now sure there's no specific Primaris Strategum but there isn't specific Classic Marines Strategums either. Masterful Marksmanship is the only one that only effects one type of unit. And arguably Honour the Chapter, Only in Death etc are better for Primaris since they have more attacks anyway.

[Ishagu]

So you're saying that the inclusion of Primaris into the Marine line have somehow made the codex weaker, even though you can run full lists without them?

 

You're letting personal bias get in the way. This has nothing to do with Primaris. The codex stratagems and psychic powers are weak and the units are over costed across the board.

When I go to tournaments I take the units that I feel will perform best, nothing more. After multiple attempts trying to make regular Astartes work I started taking Primaris and had more success. I love the models and I enjoy them more on the tabletop - that's all there is to it.

[BitsHammer]

Primaris do have some issues, but that's largely due to the prevelance of Dissies in Dark Eldar armies, and the prevelance of D2 weapons due to their more reliable nature for use in hurting Knights and other big things. 

 

 

But that's the rock-paper-scissors nature of competitive at the moment for Marines.

[Blindhamster]

with D2 weapons becoming so common, primaris are suffering more than they were at the start of the meta for sure.

[Captain Idaho]

Personal experience aside since I've had the opposite to you - I've wiped the floor with Primaris armies and seen others do it. (Again I point out that if you have Guilliman, 25 Hellblasters, 2 Repulsors and a Chapter of the Standard ascendant you're playing paper rock scissors and that is the only competitive build I've seen).

 

Objectively - GW gave nothing new to Space Marines except Primaris which are distinctly not competitive (you admit they're not competitive across the board in the army so that includes Primaris) and just left the army in the dust since it got all the Primaris sales vs the Index armies where it seemed balanced but effective.

 

GW should work to help the whole army but I'm not confident they will outside releasing more Primaris, which is an unknown quantity right now.

[Ishagu]

with D2 weapons becoming so common, primaris are suffering more than they were at the start of the meta for sure.

Yes, totally, and with Knights becoming more common units like the Repulsor can also be gunned down more easily by more lists.

Hence, as a result, I feel I took Marines as far as they can go. I'm now focusing on Knights with AdMech support for dealing mortal wounds.

[Brother Crimson]

The root of the marine problem is in data sheet. In theory there is a lot of stratagem that could be useful but it requires you to go to sub-optimal units.

 

+1 to wound to sternguard is great but they drop like flies and would work best with a drop pod, that is still overpriced.

 

Auto hit to whirlwind could be great but landspeeder are overpriced

 

Honour the chapter is a GREAT stratagem, but vanilla marine lacks good melee units to use it. Assault terminator are overpriced and vanguard are just on passing grade.

 

Killshot is great but predators can’t be taken as squads and as per rule of 3 beta you can’t have your backup.

 

Adjust price points to units like landspeeder and drop pods, make assault terminator relevent again we we could start to see some diversity beyond Guilliman tank/flyer gunline

[BitsHammer]

I feel like the D2 weapon issue is tied to how the game handles anti-tank weapons in general. While making them low shots balances them against infantry, the lack of an inherent bonus against the bigger stuff really pushes it down when we have higher volume of fire weapons that can do smaller amounts of damage more consistently. I don't know the best way to fix this, but something definitely needs to change or else the meta is going to stay like this as D2 weapons are good against a much wider range of targets than most other options.

 

I'm actually kind of hoping CA is a way to sneak out a new release for Marines by putting it in that book, and giving it downloadable rules on the website (and in the box). It's likely stretching, but it could help the army a bit.

[Captain Idaho]

I think we all want that. I want my opponents to look at my Terminators and go "man they're scary" instead of "cool an easy target for my weapon X".

[Sea-People]

Do those wine rate stats include the similar books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves? Wolves probably don't have enough data with their codex just coming out, and I know Blood Angels does well with their 2 Smash Captains + Mephiston & 3 scouts allied to guard (tangent: that is not an army, that is a chess set). Not sure how Dark Angels stack up, but I can't imagine any of them doing too hot as they are just variations on the marine theme.