Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[BitsHammer]

I think we all want that. I want my opponents to look at my Terminators and go "man they're scary" instead of "cool an easy target for my weapon X".

Pretty much. I mean, who doesn't want the cool factor from the lore to make it to the table? 

 

I guess in some respects, the problem is because Marines need to be the balancing point for the game making them the ultimate middle ground for the game. It means that everything is based around how well it works on Marines (to one extent or another) and it doesn't allow the Marines to be the walking fortresses we often see in the lore. I mean if they matched the lore, a squad of Marines could murder an army of Guardsmen.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Do those wine rate stats include the similar books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves? Wolves probably don't have enough data with their codex just coming out, and I know Blood Angels does well with their 2 Smash Captains + Mephiston & 3 scouts allied to guard (tangent: that is not an army, that is a chess set). Not sure how Dark Angels stack up, but I can't imagine any of them doing too hot as they are just variations on the marine theme.

 I believe each codex was evaluated on it's own, as well as with prevalent soup lists.

 

For example, I believe they said mono-Blood Angels have about a low-to-mid 30% win rate. But when paired up with Astra Militarum for CP battery it shoots up into the 60% range.   Blood Angels have some great units and stratagems (ie, Capt Smash) but are CP hungry, and AM brings that.

 

Dark Angels, I'm not so sure about, either they didn't discuss it or my ears didn't perk up for it.

 

Nobody soups vanilla marines because they don't have any stratagems worth souping in.  You either get an all Guilliman list (so he can buff everybody) or some die-hard chapter loyalist goes all-in and does crap.  Ultramarines are about the only tournie competitive faction...maybe Raven Guard can place in the upper quartile if dice gods are with him.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I suspect that now that all of the marine books have been released, we will see an Angel of Death style supplement.

 

It would allow them to put the next wave of Primaris in one book, they could make additional stratagems for all the chapters with detachment rules (with a deck to sell us of course), Update points for the entire range, and could introduce a detachment similar to the knight one for Astartes.  

 

It would also allow them to introduce Primaris Chapters. IMO that section would probably be more of a fluff section with suggestions on which chapter tactic to use.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think we all want that. I want my opponents to look at my Terminators and go "man they're scary" instead of "cool an easy target for my weapon X".

This is it in a nutshell for me. When I face nids and someone puts down genestealers I get that reaction, or when a Custodes player puts down jetbikes I get it, in fact I get it from almost every other faction out there. If they put down Eldar I just sigh and start thinking about what I’m having for dinner.

 

When I’m facing Space Marines though, nothing my opponent puts down (with the notable exception of the Leviathan dread) makes me feel like that. That needs fixing.

[Panzer]

Personally I suspect that now that all of the marine books have been released, we will see an Angel of Death style supplement.

 

It would allow them to put the next wave of Primaris in one book, they could make additional stratagems for all the chapters with detachment rules (with a deck to sell us of course), Update points for the entire range, and could introduce a detachment similar to the knight one for Astartes.  

 

It would also allow them to introduce Primaris Chapters. IMO that section would probably be more of a fluff section with suggestions on which chapter tactic to use.

 

They already said at launch of 8th that after they released the Codexes for existing armies they'll continue the story and release new stuff via campaigns and supplements. It's nothing to speculate about, it's something to look forward to. ^^

[Panzer]

 

I think we all want that. I want my opponents to look at my Terminators and go "man they're scary" instead of "cool an easy target for my weapon X".

This is it in a nutshell for me. When I face nids and someone puts down genestealers I get that reaction, or when a Custodes player puts down jetbikes I get it, in fact I get it from almost every other faction out there. If they put down Eldar I just sigh and start thinking about what I’m having for dinner.

 

When I’m facing Space Marines though, nothing my opponent puts down (with the notable exception of the Leviathan dread) makes me feel like that. That needs fixing.

 

 

Indeed. Hell even against Deathguard when I see Blightlords my mind instantly goes "Oh lord those are hard to shift and they can wreck my stuff if I let them be" but with Terminators it's more like "Meh, they don't do all that much damage and unless I shoot with AP0 at them they aren't that hard to shift either". Same goes for regular Marines compared to Plague Marines, Custodes and even just Primaris Marines. And that's just with the Marine-like factions. I don't even want to start to voice what I feel when I see some Tyranid, AdMech or AM units lol

[Captain Idaho]

I'm more intimidated by classic Marines and their special weapons than Primaris though. You got an army of Gauss rifles? Meh. Take some overcharged plasma.

 

Which is also a problem.

[Wargamer]

I'm hoping for something like Fury of the Legion myself. Not sure what to do with Assault Marines though.

[Captain Idaho]

Assault Marines need either something like an extra attack or special charging ability that makes them worthwhile, but perhaps just stuffing them in the Troops slot would do them wonders.

 

Wouldn't do Tactical squads much good mind, but I'd expect such changes to not be made in isolation. (What Tactical squads need has been discussed a lot anyway)

[Ishagu]

Fury of the Legion was poor in 30k, I think I used it once in about 40 games lol

 

Assault Marines need an extra attack, definitely. I look at DE wyches who can have 5 each and cost less- that's where they'd need to be.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed. Kinda wish I put an extra attack into the amendments I suggested. Hell, Vanguard and Terminators need an extra attack too.

[Kallas]

Assault Marines need an extra attack, definitely. I look at DE wyches who can have 5 each and cost less- that's where they'd need to be.

Marines need +1A across the board. Tactical Marines are far better fighters than their statline actually gives them, and +1A wouldn't make them ridiculous (it wouldn't even make them good, just not utter garbage).

 

And that's just for starters.

[Subtleknife]

Only thing i can think of for primaris is that they reduce he damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1. It would make them more resilient against d2 wounds.

 

I cant really tell what to do with the generic marines as any buff to their statline would also need carrying over to chaos etc.

[Wargamer]

Maybe we can take a page from Kill Team? In KT, Marines have transhuman physiology that lets them ignore the penalties from their first flesh wound (a truly scary ability!). Adding transhuman physiology to 40k and give it a functional ability would be great. Not sure what it would be though. Maybe something crazy like a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks.

[UnkyHamHam]

Maybe we can take a page from Kill Team? In KT, Marines have transhuman physiology that lets them ignore the penalties from their first flesh wound (a truly scary ability!). Adding transhuman physiology to 40k and give it a functional ability would be great. Not sure what it would be though. Maybe something crazy like a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks.

I suggested something exactly like this in the "Make Power Armor and Bolters great again" thread. Along with other tweaks.

 

A 1-2 CP Strategem for marines that gives them more attacks would go a LONG way. Like call it The Emperor's Fury(or Wrath).

 

Any model in the unit with base attacks of 1 will instead have D3 attacks. Any model with more than one attack will receive an additional attack.

 

This has nice potential for the 1 attack units like Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Crusaders. While still giving a nice bonus to things like Vanguard, Terminators, and Primaris.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

@ Ishagu

 

Really love you bruh !

 

Just one lil request -

 

Please never ever say “LUVERLEE”

 

:D

 

Maybe we can take a page from Kill Team? In KT, Marines have transhuman physiology that lets them ignore the penalties from their first flesh wound (a truly scary ability!). Adding transhuman physiology to 40k and give it a functional ability would be great. Not sure what it would be though. Maybe something crazy like a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks.

I suggested something exactly like this in the "Make Power Armor and Bolters great again" thread. Along with other tweaks.

A 1-2 CP Strategem for marines that gives them more attacks would go a LONG way. Like call it The Emperor's Fury(or Wrath).

Any model in the unit with base attacks of 1 will instead have D3 attacks. Any model with more than one attack will receive an additional attack.

This has nice potential for the 1 attack units like Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Crusaders. While still giving a nice bonus to things like Vanguard, Terminators, and Primaris.

Let’s make the game more complicated - just no .

[UnkyHamHam]

@ Ishagu

 

Really love you bruh !

 

Just one lil request -

 

Please never ever say “LUVERLEE”

 

:D

 

 

Maybe we can take a page from Kill Team? In KT, Marines have transhuman physiology that lets them ignore the penalties from their first flesh wound (a truly scary ability!). Adding transhuman physiology to 40k and give it a functional ability would be great. Not sure what it would be though. Maybe something crazy like a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks.

I suggested something exactly like this in the "Make Power Armor and Bolters great again" thread. Along with other tweaks.

A 1-2 CP Strategem for marines that gives them more attacks would go a LONG way. Like call it The Emperor's Fury(or Wrath).

Any model in the unit with base attacks of 1 will instead have D3 attacks. Any model with more than one attack will receive an additional attack.

This has nice potential for the 1 attack units like Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Crusaders. While still giving a nice bonus to things like Vanguard, Terminators, and Primaris.

Let’s make the game more complicated - just no .

Really nice debate. I can really tell by the subtleties of your response that you are an open minded and informed member of the community wishing to contribute to a problem that is near universally agreed upon by people. Glad to have your input, sir.

 

But seriously, people should try to inform as to their position on a suggestion. That's how a discussion works. This comes off as dismissive, disrespectful, and demeaning. I'm glad most people on B&C have a higher standard of respect for their fellow Frater. Next time just don't respond at all unless you'd like to defend your position please.

[Prot]

I have really mixed feelings about this topic, hence I haven’t replied until now. I wanted to make sure I would be speaking from a position of honesty but I won’t deny some bias, so consider yourself warned.

 

+ firstly, I should get out of the way that I enjoy a huge range of play styles including very competitive play. That said I really can’t say ITC missions are something I can do for more than a weekend ata time. I find them monochromatic and boring. That’s just my personal opinion but if that was all we played I dare to say I’d be done playing 40k. So I don’t know how to feel about a metric derived from a very specific playstyle.

 

+ second... I love Marines...we all do but I don’t think much will change. This is one of my personal conspiracy crazy man theories; I think we all have a Xenos army we compete with (actually I refuse, but most do) AND a closet full of 2-5 marine based armies. A store manager once told me the difference in sales between marines and all else.... it was staggering. I think they want marines... semi competitive but that’s it.

 

+ The solution? I think it’s far deeper than points. In an edition where everything is far more destructive, the common Bolter is worse than its 7th Edition variant. That’s a big problem whe you consider how good chaff is in 8th. -Everything-, including cheap garbage can damage anything else (sometimes far too easily) while the elite marine is quite terrible a it, and his vehicles and resources (strats) are among the worst in the game.

 

+ Admitting mistakes is hard. I had a fit when GW came out of the FAQ gate with both barrels blazing and hit one of the first codexes in the game so hard: assault cannons, Razorbacks, Stormravens (flyers in general), Hurricane Bolters,Guilliman were all hit hard. Meanwhile there wasn’t near enough data yet to make these decisions. The result: severely limiting the current tool box Astartes had to deal with emerging and future codexes. (GK have felt this more than most....but there’s more) and instead of undoing this, they added Deep Strike (beta) rules changes on top of it. All of this time has passed and none of those have been undone yet arguably they are far less potent than ever.

 

That’s enough of my babbling but it’s not just Astartes and by extension ‘marines’. We already have a few codexes that are in a really bad spot. I think the base mechanics of 8th Edition are contributing factors and point fixes are mini band aids on a broken leg.

[BitsHammer]

I have Sisters in my closet and a now illegal Plague Marine army due to some changes to options between 5th edition and now. That said, I agree, Marines are likely not getting a massive shift in the CA. Points drop maybe, but not a big shift.

 

And the reason I feel Marines won't be changing as much as we want them to is they're stuck being the baseline for the game. They're the thing GW assumes most players will be starting, and they're right: Marines are the army just about every player (give or take a very small margin of error) has. As such every army needs to be able to fight against Marines fairly, and Marines need to be able to fight every other faction.

 

Well if you compound that design over 30 years and you'll see a lot of wargear that has been designed with the goal of countering the options Marines have and it hurts the faction on a competitive side of things. We have the most toys, but we also have the most counters to our toys.

 

That said, I'm still building my Primaris IF army as a pure Primaris army (despite my claims that Scouts should count as Primaris I'm leaving them alone because I'm not a fan of the models and don't want to spend massive amounts of cast to convert Reives into Scouts because I've already got enough on my plate with the converting and mucking about I'm doing with HH decals) and basically "future proofing" them by sticking with the newer kids because the models are good and I enjoy them quite a bit and don't want to worry about losing options like my Sisters did over time.

[Basteala]

As I've said elsewhere - this data confirms what we already know.

 

Competitive gaming isn't the be all and end all of the hobby of course but it's a good indicator of the state of the game - after all it trickles down hill.

 

Now, Codex Space Marines needs amendments as I'm fully in support of (I did make a feedback topic recently ) but GW seems to be supporting Primaris at the expense of other elements of Codex Space Marines. And Primaris just aren't competetive.

 

Well Primaris ultimately struggle from the lack of transports and being slow--that's a death sentence in any maelstrom game. 

 

SM have good transports, and good primaris infantry, but the good transports can't take the primaris infantry.

[Captain Idaho]

A lack of special weapons hurts too. If Marines bring Tacticals they get access to Hellfire Shells through Heavy Bolters and overcharged double plasma squads. Cheap heavy weapons platforms for those hanging in the back.

 

15 Bolter Marines doesn't scare people enough. It helps against hordes and plinks away at targets but when losses start coming in those 4 plasma shots stick around since we choose the losses and can continue to overcharge...

 

Primaris need cheap transports as badly if not more than Tactical Marines, who themselves are crying out for them!

[Ishagu]

I'd prefer a teleport strategem, like the Deathwatch.

The Primaris are supposed to be high tech and deployed from highly advanced star ships.

[UnkyHamHam]

I'd prefer a teleport strategem, like the Deathwatch.

The Primaris are supposed to be high tech and deployed from highly advanced star ships.

Source? Whose to say the Primaris have received new more advanced starships over the old Astartes strike cruisers and battle barges? Not being cheeky, just haven't heard this info.

[Ishagu]

Dark Imperium novel talks about whole new classes of ships, of Honour and Iron also shows that existing ships have been greatly modified and imroved.

 

It's mentioned that even ancient ships like Macragge's honour have been significantly modified and upgraded with advanced technology.

[Guest MistaGav]

I agree on the Teleport stratagem. If Deathwatch and Custodes can teleport then why not Space marines or Primaris at the very least too. It would make up for a lack of drop pod and almost render them obselete. Inceptors and Reivers can DS anyway so the main units it would cater to are dreads, Intercessors, Aggressors and Hellblasters. Maybe a flyer and/or cheaper skimmer with less capacity but after that you've got all bases covered.