Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[Panzer]

I disagree tho. It's their (as in DW, Custodes and GK) special thing. Giving that to every other chapter as well is like wanting to give Guardsmen Bolter. Factions need their identity. Sure, give us some units like Terminators who can teleport but the rest of the army should rely on transports and Jump Packs and such as before.

 

Luckily GW seems to see it the same way so I'm not too worried about it. ^^

[UnkyHamHam]

I disagree tho. It's their (as in DW, Custodes and GK) special thing. Giving that to every other chapter as well is like wanting to give Guardsmen Bolter. Factions need their identity. Sure, give us some units like Terminators who can teleport but the rest of the army should rely on transports and Jump Packs and such as before.

 

Luckily GW seems to see it the same way so I'm not too worried about it. ^^

I'm in this exact spot too, Brother. We just need cheaper pods and some good transports for Primaris. Cost effective and/or cheap that is.

[Ishagu]

I think all armies should have access to a teleportation mechanic or similar, as well a abilities to mitigate it.

 

Heck, if Imperial Knights can be kept off the table and arrive via outfank, Astartes should be able to use a teleporter. This is elegant as it limits it to 1 or 2 units, not something you will spam but a great tactical tool.

[justicarius6]

I cant really tell what to do with the generic marines as any buff to their statline would also need carrying over to chaos etc.

People keep saying this and I don't agree with it. Chaos Marines have been lost to the warp for 10,000 years stagnating and suffering all kinds of degradation due to it. Saying changes to Space Marines need to be reflected by changes to Chaos Marines is just as false as saying changes to Chaos Space Marines should be reflected in marines. Where are our resilient deathguard, invulnerable rubrics etc. in that case?

[Ishagu]

It's always been this way, right down to the costing of units, for better or worse.

[Panzer]

 

I cant really tell what to do with the generic marines as any buff to their statline would also need carrying over to chaos etc.

People keep saying this and I don't agree with it. Chaos Marines have been lost to the warp for 10,000 years stagnating and suffering all kinds of degradation due to it. Saying changes to Space Marines need to be reflected by changes to Chaos Marines is just as false as saying changes to Chaos Space Marines should be reflected in marines. Where are our resilient deathguard, invulnerable rubrics etc. in that case?

 

 

Uhm that's just plain wrong.

If anything the warp gives chaos worshipper a powerup in the fluff and whatever degeneration equipment suffers from usually gets some perverted fix by the powers of the warp and/or the dark mech.

Also your argument/example is terrible. We're talking about base things getting translated to chaos, not about legion/chapter specific stuff. Nobody is saying chaos legions should get access to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard and stuff so trying to argument with Plague Marines and Rubric Marines is bound to fail. Especially because those are legions that got explicitly a power up as chosen ones of one of the chaos gods. Something loyal chapters just don't have since they don't worship any real deity. On the other hand if Chaos player would argue that their basic Chaos Marines need a buff in their statline (which they do, just not as often as loyalists) then of course that would also have to translate to Imperial Marines.

[Captain Idaho]

Teleportation in 40K is supposed to be dangerous and little understood as it transitions subjects into the Warp. Part of the appeal of 40K is the Imperium is an ancient edifice and power structure steeped in superstition and ignorance, where the blood of the faithful is the cheapest currency spent without a thought.

 

Then we get Primaris who are technologically advanced and progressive.

 

It's sickening to see the fiction spoilt like that.

[Panzer]

Primaris are not THAT advanced tho. They got a new spin on existing stuff with slight buffs but it's not like they are on the level of the ancient technology like Terminator armour and stuff. So the only fiction spoilt there is that they're more accepting of technology without thousands of years of history behind it which is not that bad imo.

[Ishagu]

The AdMech have hoarded advanced technology for millennia. With Guilliman back and Cawl ruffing feathers, I simply see it as a more fair distribution and widespread use of exotic tech.

[justicarius6]

Uhm that's just plain wrong.

If anything the warp gives chaos worshipper a powerup in the fluff and whatever degeneration equipment suffers from usually gets some perverted fix by the powers of the warp and/or the dark mech.

Also your argument/example is terrible. We're talking about base things getting translated to chaos, not about legion/chapter specific stuff. Nobody is saying chaos legions should get access to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard and stuff so trying to argument with Plague Marines and Rubric Marines is bound to fail. Especially because those are legions that got explicitly a power up as chosen ones of one of the chaos gods. Something loyal chapters just don't have since they don't worship any real deity. On the other hand if Chaos player would argue that their basic Chaos Marines need a buff in their statline (which they do, just not as often as loyalists) then of course that would also have to translate to Imperial Marines.

We're in a new edition of the game, an edition that's meant to be doing away with a lot of the old tropes of previous editions such as gear costs being baseline across armies, and statlines costing X amounts of points being equal etc. So why not simply remove this jarring impediment to balance by doing away with the "rule" that chaos marines need to match loyal marines?

 

And saying my opinion is plain wrong, is well...plain wrong.

[Panzer]

 

Uhm that's just plain wrong.

If anything the warp gives chaos worshipper a powerup in the fluff and whatever degeneration equipment suffers from usually gets some perverted fix by the powers of the warp and/or the dark mech.

Also your argument/example is terrible. We're talking about base things getting translated to chaos, not about legion/chapter specific stuff. Nobody is saying chaos legions should get access to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Sanguinary Guard and stuff so trying to argument with Plague Marines and Rubric Marines is bound to fail. Especially because those are legions that got explicitly a power up as chosen ones of one of the chaos gods. Something loyal chapters just don't have since they don't worship any real deity. On the other hand if Chaos player would argue that their basic Chaos Marines need a buff in their statline (which they do, just not as often as loyalists) then of course that would also have to translate to Imperial Marines.

We're in a new edition of the game, an edition that's meant to be doing away with a lot of the old tropes of previous editions such as gear costs being baseline across armies, and statlines costing X amounts of points being equal etc. So why not simply remove this jarring impediment to balance by doing away with the "rule" that chaos marines need to match loyal marines?

 

And saying my opinion is plain wrong, is well...plain wrong.

 

 

That's not what it's about tho. Having Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines with the same baseline is about consistency and not about old tropes and whatnot. They are literally the same kind of soldiers with the same gear just on different sides. By all means in this system they are the same so if you adjust one you have to adjust the other as well. So yes, what you said is just plain wrong still.

[Captain Idaho]

Primaris are not THAT advanced tho. They got a new spin on existing stuff with slight buffs but it's not like they are on the level of the ancient technology like Terminator armour and stuff. So the only fiction spoilt there is that they're more accepting of technology without thousands of years of history behind it which is not that bad imo.

Come on man. New and improved armour, new anti Grav platforms, new and superior Bolters and plasma and pistols, new ships, new vehicles etc.

[Subtleknife]

I disagree tho. It's their (as in DW, Custodes and GK) special thing. Giving that to every other chapter as well is like wanting to give Guardsmen Bolter. Factions need their identity. Sure, give us some units like Terminators who can teleport but the rest of the army should rely on transports and Jump Packs and such as before.

 

Luckily GW seems to see it the same way so I'm not too worried about it. ^^

I do agree with the teleport thing. However, i do see the iconic thing for SM being the drop pod. Firstly, i think it does need a points drops to make it usable. Then maybe a strat that allows a drop pod or two to come down in the enemies deployment zone in the first turn. Something that is a bit fluffy and makes the army a bit different.

[Panzer]

 

Primaris are not THAT advanced tho. They got a new spin on existing stuff with slight buffs but it's not like they are on the level of the ancient technology like Terminator armour and stuff. So the only fiction spoilt there is that they're more accepting of technology without thousands of years of history behind it which is not that bad imo.

Come on man. New and improved armour, new anti Grav platforms, new and superior Bolters and plasma and pistols, new ships, new vehicles etc.

 

 

We haven't seen the armour technologically improved so far tho. Gravis armour has T5 which is great but is lacking the 2+ and and invul so it's more like a sidegrade to Terminator armour. MKX has the exact same specs as regular Power armour so far. Not even in the books they're shown as superior in any way. Maybe improved in design but that's it.

Bolter, Plasma etc are more advanced, I'll give you that. I didn't say they aren't more advanced at all after all. They are only slight upgrades tho and nothing ground breaking.

The Grav platforms aren't even proper anti-grav. Repulsor technology works very differently to anti-grav technology and is merely a bad attempt of Cawl to copy it without understanding the technology behind it.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Didn't drop podding used to be free? You didn't even have to have a model or proxy, troops and dreads could arrive 'via drop pod' and just set up. Codex Black Templars was built around it. 

I miss Planetfall...

[Panzer]

Drop Pods used to be free only in the formation that made dedicated transports free. Free stuff is dumb tho so I'm glad that's gone. Drop Pods need some advantage over regular deep strike, as long as that doesn't happen they remain useless regardless of their cost.

[Captain Idaho]

We haven't seen the armour technologically improved so far tho. Gravis armour has T5 which is great but is lacking the 2+ and and invul so it's more like a sidegrade to Terminator armour. MKX has the exact same specs as regular Power armour so far. Not even in the books they're shown as superior in any way. Maybe improved in design but that's it.

Bolter, Plasma etc are more advanced, I'll give you that. I didn't say they aren't more advanced at all after all. They are only slight upgrades tho and nothing ground breaking.

The Grav platforms aren't even proper anti-grav. Repulsor technology works very differently to anti-grav technology and is merely a bad attempt of Cawl to copy it without understanding the technology behind it.

1) Background material shows clearly (and GW themselves have said) that there is new and improved weapons and armour in the Imperium now. Particularly Space Marines.

 

2) apart from MK10 there are specific examples of improvements in the Space Marines army. Improved Rotary weapons, Gravis Armour, anti Grav tanks, shock grenades, special pistols, bolt storms gauntlets (why don't Terminators replace power fists with these!), Bolters and variants, Icarus platforms, ironhail stubbers, plasma weapons etc.

 

Sure the balance is off but the argument transportation should be freely added enmass to Primaris is just crapping on the theme of the Imperium and 40K even further.

[justicarius6]

That's not what it's about tho. Having Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines with the same baseline is about consistency and not about old tropes and whatnot. They are literally the same kind of soldiers with the same gear just on different sides. By all means in this system they are the same so if you adjust one you have to adjust the other as well. So yes, what you said is just plain wrong still.

I disagree.

 

Consistency has gone out of the window in this edition. It's clear in the way they apportion points to units across different codices. Holding on to the position that Chaos Marines should mirror Codex Marines is denying progress.

[Panzer]

 

That's not what it's about tho. Having Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines with the same baseline is about consistency and not about old tropes and whatnot. They are literally the same kind of soldiers with the same gear just on different sides. By all means in this system they are the same so if you adjust one you have to adjust the other as well. So yes, what you said is just plain wrong still.

I disagree.

 

Consistency has gone out of the window in this edition. It's clear in the way they apportion points to units across different codices. Holding on to the position that Chaos Marines should mirror Codex Marines is denying progress.

 

 

Agree to disagree then.

[Ishagu]

I think the armour is better, generally. It has a superior design with less weaknesses, probably slightly tougher and more energy efficient. Their weapons, starships and the Repulsor are generally superior to what has come before in all measures.

The Inceptor armour is definitely more impressive than anything we've seen as it designed for atmospheric re-entry.

 

I think the Primaris also use wargear that is a nice compromise between advanced, impressive and relatively easy to manufacture. Nothing as complex as a Terminator suit that incorporates a piece of the Emperor's armour for example. The key to the success of Primaris is the modular armour - the shell of the suit can be altered, as Gravis and Tacticus is an offshoot of the same core armour.

 

As for Drop Pods, they were iconic for old Astartes, alongside Rhinos. I don't feel that Primaris need to use anything similar - I would prefer teleportation or new Deployment options.

 

The Dark Angels used Repulsors to assault positions over deep Water, showing the tactical superiority of having a powerful, mobile weapons platform that can function over any terrain or body of water.

[Dark_Jober]

Well I think a good point for reinforce the SM is allowing Primaris in normal vehicles.

 

Ok, Primaris are bigger, so maybe a Rhino could transport up to ten Oldmarines or up to 5-6 Primaris. And Primaris counting like 2 models (Heroes/Characters)

This way Razorback could still transport some primaris, maybe a hero or a new squad with 3 men.

 

C'mon! A Land Raider can transport marines, terminators and even Centurions... why it can't transport Primaris!!!! Intercessors, Hellblasters or Agressors... C'mon... don't accept the game GW is proposing for deleting old units.

[Ishagu]

I 100% agree with the Landraider and Stormraven being allowed to transport Primaris.

 

Rhino - not so much. To be frank it looks too small on the tabletop.

[Kallas]

As for Drop Pods, they were iconic for old Astartes, alongside Rhinos. I don't feel that Primaris need to use anything similar - I would prefer teleportation or new Deployment options.

That would be a huge shift in the identity of Astartes. Primaris are Astartes.

 

Astartes are a hard striking shock attack force that performs surgical strikes. The Chapters that focus on other elements, such as the Imperial Fist specialism for siege warfare, are on top of the baseline Astartes method of warfare. Chapters simply don't have the quantity required to perform standard Guard-area warfare.

 

And Drop Pods are integral to that, because of numerous aspects, such as the visual of incoming Drop Pods disheartening the enemy, the immense impact causing disorientation, and the capacity to penetrate a large proportion of defensive measures with minimal to no losses as well as high accuracy.

 

Changing that to teleportation is a big shift in both operating procedure and lore (we've been through this dance before: teleportation is difficult, unreliable and extremely dangerous).

[Robbienw]

You cant just blanket say things are superior in general, especially when there is not much information on things. 

 

There is not enough info on any new starships the primaris deploy from to outright say they are superior in general.  The starship the inceptors deploy from for example, yes its probably superior to any other ship for dropping inceptors into an atmosphere, but probably that's about it.

 

As for the Repulsor, well it is superior to other marine vehicles in that it can hover over difficult terrain, but this is a specific thing.  Is it superior to a Vindicator in destroying a bunker?  Highly unlikely.  Does it have tougher armour than a Land Raider.  Also highly unlikely.

[Ishagu]

Well, it can be dropped from orbit and has impressive firepower so it probably is the best tank/transport hybrid Astartes have so far, lore wise.

 

I never liked Pods, and I don't feel they have as much of a place in 8th edition so I'm personally against them being re-designed again. Armies are getting strats to do their job which cost no points and I'd rather get that too.

 

Orks are getting teleportation now too.